UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #8

[Tortoise]

I am not for one minute saying that it does. I'm looking at this incident is isolation.

She had what seems like the perfect opportunity to kill the child, probably completely undetected, yet took actions to prevent her from dying - and she did not die.

Now, perhaps she did have the intention to kill her and then changed her mind but I don't see any evidence to support that.

We haven't actually been told yet what she is alleged to have done to baby G on this third occasion.

It's not just a call for help and a monitor being off. There will be medical expert opinion to follow, based on nursing/clinical notes (like blotches or x-ray showing gas in the stomach or something) about the cause of the collapse.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It's not a fact.

The other nurse says it's a "fact" and one of the doctors has acknowledged that if she's said it happened then it must have happened.

 

[Tortoise]

The other nurse says it's a "fact" and one of the doctors has acknowledged that if she's said it happened then it must have happened.

He said he doesn't remember it and it's testimony for the jury's consideration whether they believe a consultant with a long career would have turned off a monitor, and not just him but two doctors. Two doctors pressing the off switch together, if she's correct about their apologies.

We're not actually getting transcripts or the benefit of seeing witness demeanour to supplement our understanding of the evidence.

What we've been told he agreed is conditional upon her memory of the apology being accurate, not his memory - 'if I apologised, presumably it happened, I don't remember' doesn't constitute fact.

It could have been a senior doctor acting graciously and apologising to a nurse for a distressing situation dealing with a collapsed baby and she's misinterpreted their apologies. It could have been as she said, but no notes and 7 years later I don't think it's factual evidence at all.

IMO

 

[ColourPurple]

The other nurse says it's a "fact" and one of the doctors has acknowledged that if she's said it happened then it must have happened.

She didn't say it was a fact. She said "as far as I'm aware I believe that was the case"

"She said the screen was still up when she entered and a “concerned” Letby was trying to revive the youngster who was not breathing.And she recalled a nearby monitor, which also measures heart rate, was not switched on.On Wednesday, she confirmed to Ben Myers KC, defending, that she spoke to detectives last month after reading the opening speeches online which suggested Letby had switched off the monitor

Mr Myers said: “From what happened you knew that was not the case?”
The nurse replied: “As far as I’m aware I believe that was not the case.”

She said two doctors, consultant Dr John Gibbs and registrar Dr David Harkness, approached her the same afternoon to apologise for leaving Child G behind the screen and for not turning the monitor back after completing the procedure.
Mr Myers said: “I suggest Ms Letby was cross that the doctors had left her behind the screen with the monitor off?”
The nurse said: “I don’t remember that.
“I remember her being concerned.”
Mr Myers said: “Do you recall she said this is something to make a formal complaint about?”
The witness replied: “I don’t remember but I went to my manager to report it myself without anyone suggesting it.”.




The scenario appears to be:

1. The doctors leave Baby G (and say they would not have left if the baby was not stable.)
2. LL either returns to Baby G or was there all along
3. LL shouts for help
4. The nurse arrives and baby G has deteriorated.
5. The nurse notices the monitor is off
5. LL says the doctors switching the monitors off could be a formal complaint(nurse does not remember this)
6. The nurse reports it to her manager (the manager does not remember this)
7. The Doctors come and apologise to the nurse (The doctors do not rememebr this and do not remember switching the monitor off, one says that would not be his normal practice, the other says at no point di dhe turn it off and he's not sure he woudl even know how to)

So the only person who actually knows whether the doctors left the monitors off is LL. The other nurse only arrived after LL did.

 

[Dotta]

Today

Doctor tells Lucy Letby trial he wouldn't have turned off baby monitor

Manchester Crown Court has heard Baby G was behind a privacy screen and unattached to an oxygen monitor when a nurse responded to a call for help from the defendant.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

They have to prove that her intention was to cause death, though. That is very specific and is a very hard thing to prove to the relevant legal standard.

By calling for help it tends to show that, even if she did do something to this baby, then the intent was not to cause death. She could easily have waited until the child died and then caused a ruckus for the attention and glory but she didn't.

Now, she my have been risking the death of the baby (if she did anything at all) but that is very different from proving a specific intention to cause death.

Calling for help does not show that the intent was not to cause death , as we know already, the doctors and nurses were not always able to save the babies even when they reached them as soon as the alarm was raised. Be that through an actual alarm going off or LL telling somebody that their designated baby looked pale. And if one motive for allegedly murdering or attempting to murder these babies was the drama it created and the adrenalin rush of everybody trying to save the babies' lives then part of that would involve raising the alarm.

In the early cases the alarm went off, in this case the monitor was switched off so no alarm went off and in later cases that we are yet to hear, LL is accused of pausing the alarm on the monitor so that it did not go off straight away, rather than it not going off because the monitor was switched off.

 

[JosieJo]

I'd guess they have to do this in order to accommodate people's Christmas plans, both the jury's and the witnesses'. Apart from anything else, a lot of people go away and/or have pre and post Christmas arrangements and commitments, and those of the jury and the witnesses in particular would have been known, noted and built into the trial's schedule.

I'd guess also that the jury in particular could do with a decent break after the harrowing couple of months they've had so they come back fresh and refreshed in Jan.

I agree but it makes no sense not to complete child Gs evidence prior to the break I'd imagine there may only have been another 2 days

 

[JosieJo]

It's not a fact.

I agree we have not heard enough detail to state that.
Who told the Dr's that while the baby collapsed the monitor was off ...they wouldn't apologise unless someone had told them

 

[JosieJo]

Who left it off isn't relevant. The prosecution must prove her specific state of mind. They must prove that she intended to cause death. Why would you call for help if you intended to cause death when you had what sounds like the perfect opportunity to do so?

The fact that a doctor left the monitor off just makes it even easier to to deny the charge.

My point was ..if she left the baby to die and the Drs didn't leave the monitor off we are back to the original prosecution case ..why was LL with a child with a monitor off?

Therefore it doesn't automatically follow that she had the ideal opportunity yet called for help

 

[JosieJo]

The other nurse says it's a "fact" and one of the doctors has acknowledged that if she's said it happened then it must have happened.

She hasn't shown it to be a fact because we have no context ...who told her the Dr's left it off ? Who told the Dr's the baby collapsed at a time when the monitor is off?

 

[ColourPurple]

I agree but it makes no sense not to complete child Gs evidence prior to the break I'd imagine there may only have been another 2 days

I think the journalists who do the daily mail pod cast were expecting them to finish the rest of Baby G's evidence too before Xmas as on their last podcast on Monday they they said :
"She's accused of attempting to murder Baby G on to two more occasions on that date (21st Sep) .Those two allegations will be the focus of next week's episode"

 

[Dotta]

"Angel of mercy/Angel of death" in medical field

Angel of mercy (criminology) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Kemug]

Surely making a call for help is pretty good evidence that she did not try to kill this child?

Or perhaps she heard the footsteps of someone approaching, and then called for help.

 

[Kemug]

Not necessarily, because the call for help is the payoff. The potential motive for this whole charade, allegedly, is the drama and the attention that comes with the urgent situation. JMO

I think the motive is also the actual deaths of the babies, and the resulting pain of the parents - otherwise why did she keep looking up the parents on facebook afterwards?

 

[Kemug]

Plus, if she had no intention of killing any babies, but just wanted the drama, you'd think that after numerous deaths and near-deaths, she would have thought that it wasn't such a good idea and stopped doing it.

 

[katydid23]

I agree but it makes no sense not to complete child Gs evidence prior to the break I'd imagine there may only have been another 2 days

I think the judge took an early break because of the confusion over the monitor. They had that legal sidebar and I think some legal issues popped up and the decision was made to take some time to sort it all out. JMO

 

[Dotta]

I think the judge took an early break because of the confusion over the monitor. They had that legal sidebar and I think some legal issues popped up and the decision was made to take some time to sort it all out. JMO

Absolutely IMO.
It is no coincidence.

 

[katydid23]

Plus, if she had no intention of killing any babies, but just wanted the drama, you'd think that after numerous deaths and near-deaths, she would have thought that it wasn't such a good idea and stopped doing it.

Let me clarify---I don't think it is only about the drama, sympathy and attention. It is also about wielding the power of life and death, IMO.

 

[Kemug]

Dear Dotta, may I compliment you upon your use of the English language? You say it isn't your first language, but you're very very good!

 

[AnnesCuthberts]

Dear Dotta, may I compliment you upon your use of the English language? You say it isn't your first language, but you're very very good!

Completely agreed! I've been having brain derps when following this case and English is my native language, I'm very envious of that level of skill and ability to be able to follow cases like this!! Hope one day I can achieve that with a second language too. Genuinely so impressive to me Dotta!!