UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[Tortoise]

Easy. The presence of the words “much easier”. This suggests the only thing holding her back is location rather than a desire to stay on the unit. She doesn’t mention at all any particular desire to be on the NNU. In my opinion if she were actively trying to deceive people she would say she wanted to go to the other hospital but her love of babies is what’s making her stay.

So the fact of the Liverpool Women's being another neonatal unit (where LL had trained), contrary to your belief, negates your opinion of this being an honest communication?

It suggests she still desired to work with babies.

But I admit I'm finding this reasoning of it being evidence of her honesty hard to follow.

These are also personal coms in essence a chance for LL to show her real colours or at least something like it, but her language doesn’t actually drastically change if at all suggesting she isn’t putting on a act. I’m really not thinking it would be possible to put On an act to that degree, continuously and successfully without a single slip up.

Right, so her real colours would be what? She isn't putting on an act of what, exactly?

I would expect a person guilty of these offences to keep up an act of caring about the babies, and caring about office gossip, every single day.

JMO

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Great thanks for that. It has also been said that operation hummingbird bird has been extended until 2024? And now includes a Liverpool hospital...is there a source for this or is that just hearsay?

I posted it before but I can't remember if it was removed, if you google 'operation hummingbird cheshire police' there's a job posting for a DCI to work on that operation for 3 years and the listing was posted in 2022

 

[Dotta]

I posted it before but I can't remember if it was removed, if you google 'operation hummingbird cheshire police' there's a job posting for a DCI to work on that operation for 3 years and the listing was posted in 2022

Wow!
Info straight from "the horse's mouth" so to speak!

 

[JosieJo]

Lucy Letby: Medics could find no reason why baby ‘suddenly collapsed’

MEDICS could find no reason why a baby suddenly collapsed during a night shift at the Countess of Chester Hospital, the trial of nurse Lucy Letby…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I think this maybe gives an insight into what those 'bitchy' comments may be, seems like nurses who were more senior/experienced weren't happy that LL was in room 1, the more intensive care unit, alone.

This element really interests me..at the beginning of the trial there were text messages in relation to LL being a bit peeved that she was not put to care for babies in room one ..I can't be sure how long the time difference is between then and yesterday's evidence.

JMO ...but if LL was a band 6 nurse ...(many neonatal nurses are band 5) ...and had done her neonatal nurse additional qualification there should be no question of her being able to care for babies in room 1

I would not be surprised if this element that was "bubbling under the surface" has some relevance here

 

[katydid23]

I can't stay and post for long because I am on California time---but looks like we are on again today.







Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
13m

I'm back at Manchester Crown Court for the murder trial of nurse Lucy Letby. We'll be continuing to hear evidence in relation to two collapses of a baby, referred to as Child H, at the Countess of Chester Hospital in September 2015.



https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1616381720974217216

 

[katydid23]

Court now sitting. Jury had made a request for notepads, Judge Goss tells them there is none in the building. 'I don't know if you know much about government procurement, but it's not as simple as going the stationary and buying it', he says



https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Dan O'Donoghue

14m

Consultant paediatrician Dr Ravi Jayaram is now in the witness box, he is recalling the events of 26 September 2015. Dr Jayaram was called by junior colleague Dr Alison Ventress in the early hours as medics were having trouble with Child H



Dan O'Donoghue
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue
11m

Child H needed a numerous procedures to drain air from her chest as she had suffered pneumothorax, this is where air leaks into the space between your lung and chest wall. Dr Jayaram is explaining this condition and how it is diagnosed/treated

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue
Dan O'Donoghue

1m

Jury are being shown X-rays of Child H, which show excess air in the chest cavity. Child H had a chest drain and two needles (to drain air) in a bid to treat this

 

[katydid23]

Goodnight.....if anyone wants to keep posting, I will read it in the morning....Baby H is a very sad situation...

 

[mart321]

The most interesting part of the note for me is that it was found at her home after her FIRST arrest. She had not been accused of murder at the time that note was written. Yes I’m sure she was aware that there were ongoing investigations and that people were talking….but at that point, she had not been officially accused of murdering these babies. MOO.

Would be very interesting to know what level of awareness the hospital staff had of the investigation at the time LL was first arrested in July 2018?

Was it common knowledge that their was a potential murder investigation going on?

Because if there was then LL's scrawlings would be more understandable.

The CoC had been downgraded and LL was on clerial duties so I think she must have known that something was amiss.

Would negligence be the obvious thought though and not murder?

But we also know that Dr J had become suspicious of her, so was their whispers at the hospital about her.

If she is innocent, then where did the idea that she was/could be accused of killing these babies come into her head???

 

[ColourPurple]

Yip she stayed in the place where it is alleged she has killed numerous babies and caused numerous collapses whereas if she was actually that cunning and that premeditated and that deceitful and that clever and actually had a desire to kill one might think she would realise it is actually in her interests to move hospital to a place where she can kill or harm with a clean slate and with less suspicion. Again that’s not what we see, she stays in the place where even she seems to notice the unusual nature of events But like someone who is actually blind to any potential wrongdoing and potential risk to herself she stays there. thats not what you could expect from someone who knows she is doing seriously top league evil. She is so not acting like someone who has something to hide.

JMO

Ok, in your original post, referring to LL thinking of moving to the women's hospital, you said :

"it would be very much in her interests if she was a serial killer to stay in a place with ample opportunity to achieve a desire to kill not only that but it’s good cover for it as well. "

I responded:

"Which is exactly what she did. She didn't actually leave. She was still there till the hospital had to move her to clerical duties"

You then replied:
"yip she stayed in the place where it is alleged she has killed numerous babies and caused numerous collapses whereas if she was actually that cunning and that premeditated and that deceitful and that clever and actually had a desire to kill one might think she would realise it is actually in her interests to move hospital to a place where she can kill or harm with a clean slate and with less suspicion. Again that’s not what we see, she stays in the place where even she seems to notice the unusual nature of events But like someone who is actually blind to any potential wrongdoing and potential risk to herself she stays there. thats not what you could expect from someone who knows she is doing seriously top league evil. She is so not acting like someone who has something to hide."

So you were originally saying that if she was a serial killer it would have been in her inerests to stay at the Countess of Chester hospital where she had ample opportunity to "achieve a desire to kill" and that it would be "good cover".

When I pointed out that she did stay there, you've changed your argument to say that if she did have a desire to kill it would have been in her interests to move hospital where she coudl "kill or harm with a clean state and with less suspicion".


I think I'll leave the discussion there.

 

[covid2020]

Good point. I think you could be right . I think the "kill myself right now" part above could be part of that too.

Kill myself right now.
Forget everything
Everyone



View attachment 396418

'I AM EVIL. I DID THIS': Post-It notes written by nurse Lucy Letby

On day four of her trial at Manchester Crown Court the jury was told that messages written by Lucy Letby, 32, were found at her home after her arrest including one that said: 'I killed them on purpose.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

The text suggests LL may have been writing down things that were said to or about her by others.

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1616390638232080386/analytics
44m

X-rays taken in the early hours of the morning of 25 September 2015 show that Child H's lung had re-inflated after the procedures. Lots of the black (air) present on previous X-rays in the chest area had disappeared

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue


Ben Myers KC, defending, is now questioning the consultant. He asks whether the act of fitting a chest drain can cause stress to a baby, he says it ‘can raise heart rate’


https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue
34m

Mr Myers is asking whether a drain could come into contact with internal structures like the heart, Dr Jayaram says he has 'never seen that happen' - he says anatomical he can't see it, as the heart is surrounded by the lungs and the lungs would have to be punctured




Mr Myers puts it to Dr Jayaram, that due to improvements in medicine, pneumothorax is less common. He says 'generally speaking doctors now are likely to have less practice on chest drains', Dr Jayaram says he 'wouldn’t disagree with that'




He says that is why such treatments are more often carried out by consultants, as they're from a generation when they were more common

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
28m

Mr Myers is asking Dr Jayaram where the optimum space is to insert a chest drain, he puts it to the consultant that the fifth intercostal space is the best area and is standard. Dr Jayaram says 'it doesn’t matter…as long as it is in, it is going to drain air'

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue
24m

Dr Jayaram eventually agrees that 'ideally' the fifth intercostal space is where a drain would be fitted



Discussion in court is currently centring on the use of different drains - a pig tail train and a straight drain. Child H has a pig tail drain fitted first, by Dr Ventress and then Dr Jayaram fitted a straight drain a short time later.


Dr Jayaram concedes that it would have been easier to fit a second pig tail drain, but there were none available



Mr Myers shows the jury an X-ray of the two drains in Child H. The first as established was in the 'ideal' fifth intercostal space. The second fitted by Dr Jayaram, is not in the fifth intercostal space (his notes written at the time say it is)



Dr Jayaram agrees it is 'clearly' not in there but says the drain is still in a 'good position'. He says it is in the plural cavity and that it is working


9m

Mr Myers is repeatedly putting it to the consultant that the chest drain is in the wrong place. 'No it’s in the plural cavity, you’re focused on process rather than outcome. It needed to be put in. It isn’t going to have any great effect on heart function'



Mr Myers puts it to the medic that the tip of a drain that close to the heart could cause bradycardia if it moves, 'it could' Dr Jayaram says


https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue
@MrDanDonoghue


Mr Myers says if the baby moves, is handled, when it breaths - can all cause the drain to move. Dr Jayaram agrees, but disputes the inference of the questions. He says any movement would be minimal

 

[ColourPurple]

Lucy Letby: Medics could find no reason why baby ‘suddenly collapsed’

MEDICS could find no reason why a baby suddenly collapsed during a night shift at the Countess of Chester Hospital, the trial of nurse Lucy Letby…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I think this maybe gives an insight into what those 'bitchy' comments may be, seems like nurses who were more senior/experienced weren't happy that LL was in room 1, the more intensive care unit, alone.

Thanks for that. So it looks like it was others raising concerns about LL looking after the sickest babies that needed one to one care. I wonder if they rasied the number of deaths and collapses she had been present for too.

"The court heard that 13 children were in the unit in the early hours of September 26, with four nurses allocated to their care.

Letby was tasked with looking after a sole baby, Child H, in intensive care nursery room 1.

The evening’s nursing shift leader, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, agreed with Mr Myers that caring one-to-one for a baby such as Child H was “potentially quite a demanding job” for a nurse of Letby’s experience.

But she added: “Lucy was qualified in specialist neo-natal nursing at this time and very competent. She was not a totally inexperienced nurse … and I would trust that she would ask me if she had any problems.”

Mr Myers asked the witness: “Was there an issue with Lucy Letby being relatively junior compared to others and some debate about her going into Nursery One to look after more poorly babies?”

“Sometimes, yes,” she replied.

Mr Myers said: “And sometimes a bit of an under-the-surface dispute about that, is that correct?”

The witness said: “Yes.”"

Lucy Letby: Medics could find no reason why baby ‘suddenly collapsed’

MEDICS could find no reason why a baby suddenly collapsed during a night shift at the Countess of Chester Hospital, the trial of nurse Lucy Letby…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
10m

Mr Myers puts it to Dr Jayaram that he inserted the chest drain in a sub-optimal position and that this contributed to Child H's desaturations in the hours and days that followed. The consultant rejects this, he says the drain was not in the wrong place



He accuses Mr Myers of being focused on process over outcomes, he says the drain was inserted to drain air which it did.

 

[ColourPurple]

I don't think we know what the purpose of the writings were. They seemed to be a mix of various types, all crammed together.
I cannot rule out all of the things above, as not being part of these writings. It does seem like a journal, expressing innocence and also guilt, and a written record of some things done, made after the fact.


I'm not sure that fear is the overwhelming emotion in these notes. IMO, there is fear but also anger, frustration, and some confusion. Also shame and regret... and bitterness.

There are also conflicting emotions.

'I haven't done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?'

versus

"I don't deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them", "I am a horrible evil person"
"I AM EVIL I DID THIS"


I don't know that we can compare these writings with those of other alleged serial killers because this is such a different type of case. I have rarely seen such a shockingly vulnerable, innocent, group of murder victims targeted before.

Serial killers often target vulnerable victims like transients, the homeless, runaways, sex workers, drug addicts, etc because they are such easy targets. And sadly also because they have fewer people watching out for them and advocating for them.

They are an easy target and sometimes the public tends to blame them partially for being in that vulnerable position.

I have never heard of a health worker allegedly targeting premature infants , let alone in such a relentless and horrific fashion. It is baffling and astonishing if true.


'There are no words. I am an awful person. I pay everyday for that'

I think this^^^ was a very honest and revealing statement.

On rereading the post it note, I noticed that although she uses clear language to allegedly "admit" to the alleged crimes:
I DID THIS
'I killed them on purpose
'I AM EVIL I DID THIS'

She never actually uses clear language to deny the alleged crimes. She doesn't say "I did not do this" or "I did not kill them". The only thing that comes close is her saying "I haven't done anything wrong". Which could jiust mean that IF she's guilty , she doesnt think she did anything wrong by doing the things she did.

I pondered before whether, IF GUILTY, her messages about fate and why some babies die and others survive, could be her way of saying that she doesn't feel responsible for the deaths as she "just" created the circumstances where the babies could die and then it was up to either the doctors or fate as to whether they did die or not.

 

[ColourPurple]

Court now sitting. Jury had made a request for notepads, Judge Goss tells them there is none in the building. 'I don't know if you know much about government procurement, but it's not as simple as going the stationary and buying it', he says

Looks like the jury may be finding Baby H's case as hard to follow as some of us. And yes, even with all the technology available , I find that sometimes a pen and paper is what you need to write down thoughts and information and to put them straight in your mind and see them clearly.

 

[ColourPurple]

The text suggests LL may have been writing down things that were said to or about her by others.

I don't think it suggests that at all. Of course it's possible but there's nothing at all to suggest it. There's no use of terms like "everybody is saying " or " They say" etc.

 

[ColourPurple]

Would be very interesting to know what level of awareness the hospital staff had of the investigation at the time LL was first arrested in July 2018?

Was it common knowledge that their was a potential murder investigation going on?

Because if there was then LL's scrawlings would be more understandable.

The CoC had been downgraded and LL was on clerial duties so I think she must have known that something was amiss.

Would negligence be the obvious thought though and not murder?

But we also know that Dr J had become suspicious of her, so was their whispers at the hospital about her.

If she is innocent, then where did the idea that she was/could be accused of killing these babies come into her head???

I found this article from Feb 2017 that details the findings of the review by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. LL would have been able to read this and although it doesn't mention bringing in the police, it does recommend an independent case review of each death be undertaken. And I guess the logical next step would be to involve the police.

Recommendations include:​

• Hold external reviews of all 13 deaths
• Improve staffing levels
• Strengthen arrangements for investigating deaths
• Improve leadership
• Appoint two additional consultants
• Hold unit-wide debriefs for neonatal deaths
• Appoint a "Children's Champion" on the board
• Give "early warning" calls to transport team

...
The review team said that there were no "obvious factors" linking the deaths. It recommended that all 13 be reviewed individually.
Ian Harvey, medical director at the hospital, said it had "acted swiftly" and those reviews had now been completed....

Staffing 'inadequate' at Chester baby death hospital

A review found "significant gaps" in rotas and "insufficient senior cover" at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

Ok, in your original post, referring to LL thinking of moving to the women's hospital, you said :

"it would be very much in her interests if she was a serial killer to stay in a place with ample opportunity to achieve a desire to kill not only that but it’s good cover for it as well. "

I responded:

"Which is exactly what she did. She didn't actually leave. She was still there till the hospital had to move her to clerical duties"

You then replied:
"yip she stayed in the place where it is alleged she has killed numerous babies and caused numerous collapses whereas if she was actually that cunning and that premeditated and that deceitful and that clever and actually had a desire to kill one might think she would realise it is actually in her interests to move hospital to a place where she can kill or harm with a clean slate and with less suspicion. Again that’s not what we see, she stays in the place where even she seems to notice the unusual nature of events But like someone who is actually blind to any potential wrongdoing and potential risk to herself she stays there. thats not what you could expect from someone who knows she is doing seriously top league evil. She is so not acting like someone who has something to hide."

So you were originally saying that if she was a serial killer it would have been in her inerests to stay at the Countess of Chester hospital where she had ample opportunity to "achieve a desire to kill" and that it would be "good cover".

When I pointed out that she did stay there, you've changed your argument to say that if she did have a desire to kill it would have been in her interests to move hospital where she coudl "kill or harm with a clean state and with less suspicion".


I think I'll leave the discussion there.

I wasn’t actually aware that there was a neonatal unit at this other hospital. Referenced to by Lucy as the woman’s hospital. Presumably if she was a serial killer who only targeted babies it would still be equally if not more in her interests to go to a place with less suspicion, clean slate And what seems to be personal aversion. Looking at those texts she shared with dr av. I would anticipate a cunning individual seeing those benefits as outweighing the negative of the new hospital being further away. The fact she stayed at coch and is seemingly oblivious to how unusual these events are is something to note by me.she really is not acting like someone who has something to hide.

 

[DianaWW]

I found this article from Feb 2017 that details the findings of the review by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. LL would have been able to read this and although it doesn't mention bringing in the police, it does recommend an independent case review of each death be undertaken. And I guess the logical next step would be to involve the police.

Recommendations include:​

• Hold external reviews of all 13 deaths
• Improve staffing levels
• Strengthen arrangements for investigating deaths
• Improve leadership
• Appoint two additional consultants
• Hold unit-wide debriefs for neonatal deaths
• Appoint a "Children's Champion" on the board
• Give "early warning" calls to transport team

...
The review team said that there were no "obvious factors" linking the deaths. It recommended that all 13 be reviewed individually.
Ian Harvey, medical director at the hospital, said it had "acted swiftly" and those reviews had now been completed....

Staffing 'inadequate' at Chester baby death hospital

A review found "significant gaps" in rotas and "insufficient senior cover" at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.bbc.co.uk

It definitely doesn't include any mention of murder though, so I still don't understand why she was writing about 'killing them on purpose' and such things, before anybody knew it was a murder investigation. Nobody had accused her of that at the point she wrote the note. I would be more inclined to believe the note was words written in anguish, if it was written AFTER her first arrest. But it wasn't. MOO.