UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[ColourPurple]

It definitely doesn't include any mention of murder though, so I still don't understand why she was writing about 'killing them on purpose' and such things, before anybody knew it was a murder investigation. Nobody had accused her of that at the point she wrote the note. I would be more inclined to believe the note was words written in anguish, if it was written AFTER her first arrest. But it wasn't. MOO.

True it doesn't mention murder or deliberate harm and even if there were a police investigation it wouldn't neccessarily mean that they were considering those charges over something accidental like negligence. Yet she has referenced killing and doing it on purpose and being evil in her note.

 

[ColourPurple]

Would be very interesting to know what level of awareness the hospital staff had of the investigation at the time LL was first arrested in July 2018?

Was it common knowledge that their was a potential murder investigation going on?

Because if there was then LL's scrawlings would be more understandable.

The CoC had been downgraded and LL was on clerial duties so I think she must have known that something was amiss.

Would negligence be the obvious thought though and not murder?

But we also know that Dr J had become suspicious of her, so was their whispers at the hospital about her.

If she is innocent, then where did the idea that she was/could be accused of killing these babies come into her head???

It definitely doesn't include any mention of murder though, so I still don't understand why she was writing about 'killing them on purpose' and such things, before anybody knew it was a murder investigation. Nobody had accused her of that at the point she wrote the note. I would be more inclined to believe the note was words written in anguish, if it was written AFTER her first arrest. But it wasn't. MOO.

Ok, I've found this from May 2017, so looks like it was public knowledge that there was a police investigation from May 2017! (It does mention that the hospital contacted police to help them rule out "unnatural causes of death" but as @DianaWW pointed out nothing to imply that the charges, if there were any, would be murder rather than negligence etc )

Police investigating baby deaths at Countess of Chester hospital​

Cheshire police have launched an investigation into an unusually high rate of baby deaths and collapses at the Countess of Chester hospital over a 12-month period.

The hospital said it had contacted the police this month to help them rule out unnatural causes of death in its neonatal unit between June 2015 and June 2016. The force said it would examine the deaths of 15 babies and the collapses of six.

“Cheshire constabulary has launched an investigation, which will focus on the deaths of eight babies that occurred between that period where medical practitioners have expressed concern,” DCS Nigel Wenham said.

“In addition, the investigation will also conduct a review of a further seven baby deaths and six non-fatal collapses during the same period.”

Police investigating baby deaths at Countess of Chester hospital

Cheshire police will look at deaths of 15 babies and six non-fatal incidents between 2015 and 2016 after trust contacted them

www.theguardian.com

 

[Tortoise]

On rereading the post it note, I noticed that although she uses clear language to allegedly "admit" to the alleged crimes:
I DID THIS
'I killed them on purpose
'I AM EVIL I DID THIS'

She never actually uses clear language to deny the alleged crimes. She doesn't say "I did not do this" or "I did not kill them". The only thing that comes close is her saying "I haven't done anything wrong". Which could jiust mean that IF she's guilty , she doesnt think she did anything wrong by doing the things she did.

I pondered before whether, IF GUILTY, her messages about fate and why some babies die and others survive, could be her way of saying that she doesn't feel responsible for the deaths as she "just" created the circumstances where the babies could die and then it was up to either the doctors or fate as to whether they did die or not.

Agreed it does give that impression, imo. Also, it's the only kind of (warped) mentality that would make sense of this if the allegations are proven. I think the police considered that angle too, when they questioned her about the fate message.

She's not getting positive attention, in fact she's acknowledged she's getting the opposite. She went off shift or out of the room before a few of the near fatal collapses, so there's no (alleged) attention-seeking element involved there. IMO

The alleged attacks are brutal and with some of these babies who were conscious and well enough to scream, caused suffering and pain at the top end of the scale. That would require detachment and absence of empathy. She never talks about the suffering of the babies in her messages. The nights are "rubbish" for her, she talks a lot about broken hearts, and the babies are very quickly 'reduced' to memory boxes. IMO

 

[ColourPurple]

I wasn’t actually aware that there was a neonatal unit at this other hospital. Referenced to by Lucy as the woman’s hospital. Presumably if she was a serial killer who only targeted babies it would still be equally if not more in her interests to go to a place with less suspicion, clean slate And what seems to be personal aversion. Looking at those texts she shared with dr av. I would anticipate a cunning individual seeing those benefits as outweighing the negative of the new hospital being further away. The fact she stayed at coch and is seemingly oblivious to how unusual these events are is something to note by me.she really is not acting like someone who has something to hide.

Your original post was in response to Marantz4250b saying

One would think that any serial killer would be desperate to stay in what is clearly a chaotic environment. It surely makes it much more difficult to spot someone killing patients if everyone is burned out through overwork? Also, if she was simply incompetent or negligent, and knew it, wouldn't you just want to stay in order to hide your failings?

You said "it would be very much in her interests if she was a serial killer to stay in a place with ample opportunity to achieve a desire to kill not only that but it’s good cover for it as well."

I think the reasons both you and Marantz4250b have given for why an alleged serial killer might want to stay in the hospital they were already allegedly commiting murders in were valid, even if the hospital they were considering moving to had its own NNU. So no need for me to address that really, as you have both already given good reasons for why, if guilty, it would be in LL's interests to stay at The Countess.

 

[Sundial]

I wasn’t actually aware that there was a neonatal unit at this other hospital. Referenced to by Lucy as the woman’s hospital. Presumably if she was a serial killer who only targeted babies it would still be equally if not more in her interests to go to a place with less suspicion, clean slate And what seems to be personal aversion. Looking at those texts she shared with dr av. I would anticipate a cunning individual seeing those benefits as outweighing the negative of the new hospital being further away. The fact she stayed at coch and is seemingly oblivious to how unusual these events are is something to note by me.she really is not acting like someone who has something to hide.

With all due respect; as heard in evidence already- the seemingly falsified nursing notes suggest she may well indeed “could” have something to hide. Falsifying medical records is not taken lightly and carries serious legal implications as a consequence.

The police reports we’ve heard thus far are also very contradictory, as is the evidence given by parents, baby Es mother as an example. We also see various (and in quick succession) Facebook searches she allegedly cannot remember doing.

 

[Tortoise]

Your original post was in response to Marantz4250b saying

One would think that any serial killer would be desperate to stay in what is clearly a chaotic environment. It surely makes it much more difficult to spot someone killing patients if everyone is burned out through overwork? Also, if she was simply incompetent or negligent, and knew it, wouldn't you just want to stay in order to hide your failings?

You said "it would be very much in her interests if she was a serial killer to stay in a place with ample opportunity to achieve a desire to kill not only that but it’s good cover for it as well."

I think the reasons both you and Marantz4250b have given for why an alleged serial killer might want to stay in the hospital they were already allegedly commiting murders in were valid, even if the hospital they were considering moving to had its own NNU. So no need for me to address that really, as you have both already given good reasons for why, if guilty, it would be in LL's interests to stay at The Countess.

Exactly, and she did stay. She even bought a house near the Countess, during these alleged work problems, when as a young unattached individual, she could have lived anywhere.

 

[Tortoise]

Looks like the jury may be finding Baby H's case as hard to follow as some of us. And yes, even with all the technology available , I find that sometimes a pen and paper is what you need to write down thoughts and information and to put them straight in your mind and see them clearly.

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Update on this, a court official has gone to WHSmith - paper has been purchased....

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Dr John Gibbs, who was a consultant paediatrician at the Countess of Chester in 2015, is now in the witness box

Dr Gibbs' notes from around 5pm on 25 September show that the drain inserted by Dr Jayaram that morning had moved. Dr Gibbs fixed the drain more securely to stop it moving any further

Dr Gibbs is asked if there's any consequence to the drain moving, he says: 'The main worry is it moving out completely and falling out and being useless'

Asked if there would be any internal consequence, Dr Gibbs says: 'Not that I’m aware of…you wouldn’t want to keep pulling and pushing, that would be rubbing against the lung. Pushing very far in would push against the heart…

'I wouldn’t expect it to cause any trauma or damage to (Child H)at all', he said

Dr Gibbs is now taking the court back over his notes from the early hours of 26 September, when Child H suffered a serious collapse which required CPR and three doses of adrenaline

Dr Gibbs' notes from the time say that it was 'unclear' why the infant went into cardiac arrest. His notes say the likely cause was hypoxia - low oxygen levels - but not clear what had caused that

 

[Tortoise]

Court now sitting. Jury had made a request for notepads, Judge Goss tells them there is none in the building. 'I don't know if you know much about government procurement, but it's not as simple as going the stationary and buying it', he says

Tut tut (spelling!) Mr Donaghue.

 

[Kemug]

I think the reasons both you and Marantz4250b have given for why an alleged serial killer might want to stay in the hospital they were already allegedly commiting murders in were valid, even if the hospital they were considering moving to had its own NNU. So no need for me to address that really, as you have both already given good reasons for why, if guilty, it would be in LL's interests to stay at The Countess.

I'm not sure I agree with that - she could have thought (as I do) that if she moved to the other hospital and continued with harming babies, or even adults, then it might be a really obvious red flag.

 

[ColourPurple]

I'm not sure I agree with that - she could have thought (as I do) that if she moved to the other hospital and continued with harming babies, or even adults, then it might be a really obvious red flag.

True, another good reason to stay put, if guilty.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Update on this, a court official has gone to WHSmith - paper has been purchased....

omg Smiths that will have cost an absolute fortune!!

 

[Sweeper2000]

@Tortoise

i was saying as referenced to in my other post about use of language etc that there is good continuity between her formal and informal coms. Her informal coms would be a better place to find any evidence of negative emotion as she would be closer to showing her true colours assuming she is putting on a act. We so no evidence of envy, hate, spite not even anger when aggrieved, she seems to mediate any anger in her coms with dr av by simply saying she is quite upset at the recent negative comments.

there is also good continuity between her outward persona in a professional setting and her more informal coms as evident by the fact her use of language doesn’t change much. That suggests she is being honest. We see no evidence of excessive emotions or deviance of mind both in her history and others opinions on her. Nor do we see evidence of abnormality in thought which would probably be a factor if she was doing this under the guise of a “mercy killing“ as is common in health care killers, ruling that out your left with negative emotion or excessive need of attention and again we see no evidence of it seemingly at all. The only evidence we have of any potential abnormal thinking or emotion is that note and even that is representative of a individual in a state of turmoil and duress. if it took allegations of this severity for her to actually reach that state of mind I would suggest she is relatively normal.

again I will draw attention to the fact that the only evidence of her being abnormal offered by the prosecution is the note and actually they also had access to her diary and very personal writings and they have offered nothing to suggest deviance of character or mind. I am confident that the diary would contain at least something of note to the prosecution and that’s conspicuous in its absence.

she also does state in personal communications that she has cried, needs a break, and on numerous occasions has found these events difficult to deal with. Again if we use her personal usage of the word “rubbish” to describe an emotional reflection of the situation one might assume it’s a warm way of her expressing her opinion.

this is all jmo and granted is ascertained with scant data and doesn’t give one a bearing on the likelihood of guilt or innocence. Just that it’s not in line with her being guilty of that which she is accused of.

jmo.

 

[Sundial]

I'm not sure I agree with that - she could have thought (as I do) that if she moved to the other hospital and continued with harming babies, or even adults, then it might be a really obvious red flag.

But wouldn’t it be the same if she thought that moving to day shifts? Or perhaps (if guilty) in the environment she was in that no-one would notice? They know her, built trust in her, she appears quite friendly with her colleagues (allegedly at times with hoola hoop etc) MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think as well that the times in which she has said things of an implicative nature that could be used to draw an inference that she is lacking in awareness of how other people may be looking at her which is normally present in people of a deceitful Nature. She can’t plot and plan if she is unaware that people are thinking negatively of her Which seems to be the case. She is noticeably oblivious that these events are suspicious and might reflect badly on her which one wouldn’t expect from someone who knows what they have done and is feeling conspicuous thus presenting good motivation to move to a different hospital and taking off the heat.

again if she did falsify those notes how was it she knew that it would be her word against the mothers rather than her word against the mothers plus staff? That would take an immense amount of calculation and foresight and is a weak strategy with too much risk.

how is it that a cunning and strategic individual would fail to see the implications of claiming she didn’t know what an air embolism was if guilty and that she doesn’t remember the fb searches? I would argue that a cunning, deceitful and scheming individual would understand that it would be better to state she was just checking on how the family was doing which is more innocuous. Also she mentioned the tpn bag which again is remarkable if she was guilty.

it seems everyone here noticed how unusual that is so why didn’t this supposed master of deception?

my post stating the supposed chaotic nature of the unit would provide ample opportunity for a killer to blend in is proposed under the idea that it is that but that’s jmo. I can’t say for sure that all the instances given of a supposedly chaotic unit are out of line with what is reasonable to expect on a unit like the one in question. If it is operational and ordered and in line with the guidelines and law then that still goes against the idea that someone would be able to do this and get away with it For so long. Isn’t it also stated by the prosecution and staff that the unit is functional and in good accord with the guidelines?

I also think that the move to day shifts would in the mind of a scheming individual start to ring alarm bells. Which it didn’t apparently again suggesting she isn’t putting on a act or trying to hide something. Also the fact that this potentially alarming change in routine didn’t give LL the motivation for a change in approach or location is again against the idea that she is trying to hide something Or is aware that she is suspected of wrong doing.

I will give an example. In one of the cases it was said that a nurse didn’t record one of the feeds what I can’t say is to what degree that is unreasonable to expect and to what degree of severity it is against the rules.

jmo.

 

[DianaWW]

The BBC write up for today. Don’t think there’s anything we haven’t heard…

Doctor rejects chest drain claim, Letby trial told - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby's trial hears how a baby girl suffered two "profound" collapses in hospital.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

Agreed it does give that impression, imo. Also, it's the only kind of (warped) mentality that would make sense of this if the allegations are proven. I think the police considered that angle too, when they questioned her about the fate message.

She's not getting positive attention, in fact she's acknowledged she's getting the opposite. She went off shift or out of the room before a few of the near fatal collapses, so there's no (alleged) attention-seeking element involved there. IMO

The alleged attacks are brutal and with some of these babies who were conscious and well enough to scream, caused suffering and pain at the top end of the scale. That would require detachment and absence of empathy. She never talks about the suffering of the babies in her messages. The nights are "rubbish" for her, she talks a lot about broken hearts, and the babies are very quickly 'reduced' to memory boxes. IMO

This is what strikes me too. Those poor little babies, what they have gone through, tiny little infants and how much pain they must have been in doesn’t bare thinking about. And yet there is almost no mention making reference to these kinds of thoughts from her.
IMO she seems somewhat quite detached emotionally (if she loved and lived for her job as much as is described) and instead she seems to just bounce from one message to another (even on shift) with very little reference to how much distress these babies must have gone through. For something so harrowing she appears almost “empty” in terms of emotion in her text exchanges imo.

 

[Dotta]

This is what strikes me too. Those poor little babies, what they have gone through, tiny little infants and how much pain they must have been in doesn’t bare thinking about. And yet there is almost no mention making reference to these kinds of thoughts from her.
IMO she seems somewhat quite detached emotionally (if she loved and lived for her job as much as is described) and instead she seems to just bounce from one message to another (even on shift) with very little reference to how much distress these babies must have gone through. For something so harrowing she appears almost “empty” in terms of emotion in her text exchanges imo.

That is exactly what struck me too!

 

[Sweeper2000]

It also seems to me that the fact she stayed at the coch isn’t implicative of someone with something to hide. She would presumably understand if she was that devious and cunning that a move to a new hospital would present her with an opportunity to begin again with a clean slate. She would then if she was a manipulative individual spend time building trust or “groom” her new colleagues so they wouldn’t suspect her When eventually the plan came to fruition and she started attacking babies again. This is all assuming that she did intend and plan to attack babies In her care. It is true that she chose to stay at the coch and build her life around it even when as a qualified and experienced nurse she could have upped sticks and moved to a new and fresh environment free of any negative association Even if that means selling her new house which I don’t think would be too much trouble. Not what she did so why? this also assumes an awareness of negative circumstances creating a precedent for seeking new hunting grounds which we don’t see. The only explanation would be that the coch is a chaotic environment creating good cover for a would be plotting killer Which I’m not sure of.

to assume she is putting on a act on a daily basis would also mean she is actively looking for any signs that if guilty she is under suspicion which we don’t see Quite the opposite really. If she was looking for signs she probably would not be making those fb searches either especially if she knew it could be looked at with great suspicion which would obviously be the case if she knew she had done something wrong and was actively looking to cover her tracks. We see little if any effort on the part of LL to cover her tracks which is very much what you could expect from someone who knew they had done something that wrong.

I might agree With the opinion of a certain level of detachment from the sufferings of these babies but there is statements made by LL in private and formal coms showing she is affected by the events. For instance when she said that it is best sometimes to head straight back in after a tragic event it is true because the more an individual delays such a difficult and inevitable action the harder it is to do it dow the line, or the more it eats an individual up. That shows she has dealt with this kind of thing before and has developed a strategy to deal with the trauma involved. Healthy and professional coping mechanism. It may also show that her heart is in the right place and is looking to keep her mind on the objective which as she states is making sure to the best degree possible that these babies go home with their families.

“If you're going through hell, keep going.”

winston Churchill

jmo

 

[Tortoise]

Her informal coms would be a better place to find any evidence of negative emotion as she would be closer to showing her true colours assuming she is putting on a act. We so no evidence of envy, hate, spite not even anger when aggrieved, she seems to mediate any anger in her coms with dr av by simply saying she is quite upset at the recent negative comments.

You have no idea what she might do with negative emotions.

I grew up with a lot of negative emotions and I never acknowledged them, never mind processed them, until I was hitting 40. What I did experience was severe depression, as a result of stuffing down my feelings until they were numbed, without any awareness I was doing it. Denial is a powerful thing. Ironically, the first time I remember feeling anger that I was aware of, a proper heart-pounding adrenaline rush, was when a very experienced therapist suggested I was angry. I sat there, feeling the shame of what I thought she was 'accusing' me of, so angry, like she thought I was a criminal. I was brought up to smile and please others. I told her she was wrong and it was several more years after that until I faced it.

LL wrote the word HATE in huge thick lettering and heavily encircled it. That suggests teeth-gritting, spitting-mad, to me.

there is also good continuity between her outward persona in a professional setting and her more informal coms as evident by the fact her use of language doesn’t change much. That suggests she is being honest.

It suggests consistency of outward persona, not honesty, IMO

if it took allegations of this severity

She had not faced allegations at the time she wrote the note.

I am confident that the diary would contain at least something of note to the prosecution

I think she would want to keep her diary free of anything incriminating, if she is guilty, IMO. If anyone ever found it there would be no defence.

she also does state in personal communications that she has cried, needs a break

That assumes truth in what she says, which I don't assume. It also assumes truth in the reasons she's given, when it could be she's reacting to suspicions.