UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

[Parker Knoll]

And also as I didn’t mean to appear rude with my previous post but just to add, the prosecution by definition are always at a disadvantage when trials start as they have shown their hand completely in disclosure - the defence not so.
They had legal aid in place to secure the best experts for letby but funnily enough they didn’t call them with exception of a hospital plumber - now why was that ?
The elephant in the room regarding experts will have to be addressed at some point going forward.
The aftermath of this trial again is wholly unprecedented.
We have never seen lawyers holding press conferences and making wild accusations whilst their client languishes in prison after two failed appeals.
This was the longest trial of this nature ever, she was treated with kid gloves in the witness box. Every single time she complained she was given a break and I saw her pull those histrionics myself.
It was watertight.
JMO

 

[WaneLyrical]

There was no doubt that she took home 257 confidential hand-over sheets which should never have left the hospital.

There was no doubt that she made hundreds, probably thousands, of FB searches of families of deceased and affected children.

There was no doubt that she falsified medical notes.

There was no doubt that Dr Jayram watched her doing nothing while a baby desaturated and almost died.

Moreover, respectfully, you are again missing the entire point here; injecting doubt into every piece of evidence, circumstantial evidence, is not the point. It is the totality of the evidence when taken as a whole that matters. The jury concluded that that totality of evidence added up to her being guilty of a series of murders and attempted murders.

257 handover sheets suggests she tips the contents of her pockets into her “work bag” after every shift. A bag which ended up chucked under her bed, like many people who hoard rubbish tend to do, out of sight out of mind. It shouldn’t have happened. But it’s not like there was a pile of preserved handover notes relating specifically to the babies in the case. If she had this volume of handover notes and none of them related to these babies, it would look more suspicious.

Re Facebook, she searched everyone, thousands of searches, including many other patient families. Again, it would be more strange if the particular families in this case were suspiciously absent from her constant Facebook searching.

There is doubt about whether medical notes were falsified. The key one being Baby E, in which the consultant’s and midwife’s version of events also points to the parents being out by one hour.

There certainly is doubt about Jayaram catching her “virtually red handed”, when he failed to record it (despite already being suspicious of Letby) and failed to mention it to another soul until more than a year later after Letby’s grievance was upheld.

I’m not missing the point. The whole thing adds up to “there were murders, she was always there, therefore she’s the murderer”.

 

[WaneLyrical]

The jury clearly didn’t agree with you that reasonable doubt factored into their decisions.
They heard everything, saw every exhibit and analysed each witness.
That is how decisions are reached.
Where that leaves you matters not a jot.

They heard that there was no other possible explanation for the insulin results other than poisoning. They were therefore unanimous on those cases, and were able to use that to bolster the other cases. If it turns out those babies weren’t poisoned, where does it leave the rest of it.

 

[WaneLyrical]

And also as I didn’t mean to appear rude with my previous post but just to add, the prosecution by definition are always at a disadvantage when trials start as they have shown their hand completely in disclosure - the defence not so.
They had legal aid in place to secure the best experts for letby but funnily enough they didn’t call them with exception of a hospital plumber - now why was that ?
The elephant in the room regarding experts will have to be addressed at some point going forward.
The aftermath of this trial again is wholly unprecedented.
We have never seen lawyers holding press conferences and making wild accusations whilst their client languishes in prison after two failed appeals.
This was the longest trial of this nature ever, she was treated with kid gloves in the witness box. Every single time she complained she was given a break and I saw her pull those histrionics myself.
It was watertight.
JMO

I don’t know why they didn’t call experts, because there certainly doesn’t seem to be any shortage of experts coming forward and putting their reputations on the line to question what the evidence shows.

The jury heard something like 100 days of evidence spread over many many months. The had to ask for notepads on day 40 for goodness sake. Then they tried to ask questions about insulin and sought transcripts while they were deliberating, and got told to beat it. I feel sorry for the jury.

 

[Parker Knoll]

They heard that there was no other possible explanation for the insulin results other than poisoning. They were therefore unanimous on those cases, and were able to use that to bolster the other cases. If it turns out those babies weren’t poisoned, where does it leave the rest of it.

The defence and letby herself agreed with the insulin evidence.
She just said it wasn’t her.
We can go round and round with this.

 

[Sweeper2000]

257 handover sheets suggests she tips the contents of her pockets into her “work bag” after every shift. A bag which ended up chucked under her bed, like many people who hoard rubbish tend to do, out of sight out of mind. It shouldn’t have happened. But it’s not like there was a pile of preserved handover notes relating specifically to the babies in the case. If she had this volume of handover notes and none of them related to these babies, it would look more suspicious.

Re Facebook, she searched everyone, thousands of searches, including many other patient families. Again, it would be more strange if the particular families in this case were suspiciously absent from her constant Facebook searching.

There is doubt about whether medical notes were falsified. The key one being Baby E, in which the consultant’s and midwife’s version of events also points to the parents being out by one hour.

There certainly is doubt about Jayaram catching her “virtually red handed”, when he failed to record it (despite already being suspicious of Letby) and failed to mention it to another soul until more than a year later after Letby’s grievance was upheld.

I’m not missing the point. The whole thing adds up to “there were murders, she was always there, therefore she’s the murderer”.

preserved like this?

"She was also found to have kept 21 handover sheets – documents including confidential details of a baby’s condition – that contained details relating to 13 of the children that she has been convicted of murdering or harming.

These objects were found in a pink box with roses on it, kept in ‘pristine’ condition in her bedroom at her semi-detached house in Westbourne Road."

Lucy Letby's 'treasure trove' of sick souvenirs she kept after killing babies

Among the mementos the killer nurse kept in her house, officers found thank you cards and resuscitation notes.

metro.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

"Representing a separate group of families, Peter Skelton KC said: "Lucy Letby has been convicted during a protracted trial during which she had access to the finest criminal legal team and numerous medical specialist experts across all relevant specialisms, none of whom were ultimately called to give evidence to support her defence."

Regarding a report published by the panel of medical experts who are working with Letby's new legal team, he said: "Cursory analysis of the report identifies multiple problems with their analysis.

"What has been presented with great fanfare as new and incontrovertible evidence turns out to be old and full of analytical holes.

"Critical medical and non-medical evidence from the trials and this inquiry has been ignored or dismissed."

About the former senior hospital managers, Mr Skelton said: "They appear to have lived in and still be living in an alternate and internally contradictory reality - one where no murders or attempted murders took place.

"This is arrogant, self-serving fantasy." "

Lucy Letby: Families oppose attempt to stop inquiry

Former hospital bosses believe there is a "real possibility" the nurse's convictions may be overturned.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

Oh lordy

This is Rachel Langdale KC, Counsel to the Inquiry, addressing Lady Thirlwall yesterday -

"Yesterday you also received a letter, my Lady, from Bhandal Law, a firm of solicitors who now represent Letby. The letter asked you to suspend the Inquiry under section 13 of the Inquiries Act 2005. That request is mistaken in law for the reasons we have just outlined, the power to suspend is a power the Minister has, not you."

Oral Closing Submissions of Core Participants and Closing Remarks of Counsel to the Inquiry, Tuesday 18 March 2025 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Examining the events at the Countess of Chester Hospital and their implications following the trial, and subsequent convictions, of former neonatal nurse Lucy Letby of murder and attempted murder of babies at the hospital.

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

 

[WaneLyrical]

preserved like this?

"She was also found to have kept 21 handover sheets – documents including confidential details of a baby’s condition – that contained details relating to 13 of the children that she has been convicted of murdering or harming.

These objects were found in a pink box with roses on it, kept in ‘pristine’ condition in her bedroom at her semi-detached house in Westbourne Road."

Lucy Letby's 'treasure trove' of sick souvenirs she kept after killing babies

Among the mementos the killer nurse kept in her house, officers found thank you cards and resuscitation notes.

metro.co.uk

That’s not even true. The rose box contained a pristine copy of her first ever handover sheet. Everything else was either in the shopping bag under the bed, the new shopping bag (the Ibiza bag), or in various other places (the bin bag, the cardboard box). Is there any actual evidence other than a misleading metro article suggesting she separated out the harmed babies and kept all their documents together?

 

[WaneLyrical]

The defence and letby herself agreed with the insulin evidence.
She just said it wasn’t her.
We can go round and round with this.

I’m not interested in going round with it either. I’m more interested in evaluating what’s being said now, because it’s unprecedented for medical professionals to come out en masse to question a verdict like this. Whatever Letby or Myers conceded in court is irrelevant if the actual truth is something else.

 

[Tortoise]

Number 8 in Mark McDonalds list of items being sent to the CCRC, can go in the bin. Sorry bout that Neena Modi!


"8. The failure of the prosecution to adduce before the jury the report from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH) which, following a full review of the neonatal unit, raised several issues concerning suboptimal care."

Rachel Langdale KC:

"The RCPCH witnesses accepted in terms that its investigation or review should never have taken place, and would not have taken place had full information been provided by the hospital. Professor Stephen Turner, current President of the RCPCH, said in evidence that the review "went wrong from the start". Professor Turner accepted that the exploration of the causes of specific neonatal deaths was unsuitable for an invited review; that, ultimately, the report compiled did not identify any common factors or failings responsible for deaths, and the Terms of Reference were doomed to fail from the outset.

Ms Fiona Scolding KC, who represents the RCPCH in this Inquiry, made significant concessions in her closing address yesterday on behalf of the RCPCH. Those who place any reliance upon the RCPCH's report as providing explanation for deaths of babies should read the transcript of Ms Scolding KC's address with care. Ms Scolding made reference to the fact that the review team thought that the police should be called at the time. Ms Scolding said that any suggestion that the review exculpates Letby was simply wrong and not a reasonable conclusion to make. Furthermore, she was clear that the review was never going to answer the question of why there was an increase in unexplained and unexpected deaths, and that the review did not provide those answers."

Oral Closing Submissions of Core Participants and Closing Remarks of Counsel to the Inquiry, Tuesday 18 March 2025 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Examining the events at the Countess of Chester Hospital and their implications following the trial, and subsequent convictions, of former neonatal nurse Lucy Letby of murder and attempted murder of babies at the hospital.

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

 

[Parker Knoll]

Ok … sure.

And actually the whole point of the appeals process is bringing NEW information before the appeal judges that was not available at trial and question the verdict with that NEW information but the information brought at that frankly tawdry presser didn’t do that, it had been covered and debunked, cross examined and dismissed at the trial, re trial and two appeals.

As for your final comment I’m struggling to even understand it to be perfectly honest so I won’t even comment, except to say that if Letby and her Counsel conceded it in court but we are to consider it “ irrelevant “ then the earth must surely be flat.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course on this case but it’s no “ best of three “ you know.
It doesn’t work like that !

I’m not interested in going round with it either. I’m more interested in evaluating what’s being said now, because it’s unprecedented for medical professionals to come out en masse to question a verdict like this. Whatever Letby or Myers conceded in court is irrelevant if the actual truth is something else.

 

[Tortoise]

"When writing your report, where you decide that any person or organisation should be criticised for any reason, they will have the opportunity to respond to a confidential warning letter in the summer outlining potential criticisms to be made. You will consider each response to any warning letter before you finally determine what comments or criticisms you make in a published report.

[...]

Finally, we submit that you should not accede to the request to pause in your report writing or warning letter process. Letby's convictions result from a full and lengthy judicial process.

[...]

And contrary to the assertion made, we submit it is not unfair to the former executives either. They will be judged by what they did and said at the time, and not the benefit of hindsight.

The matter of the timing or publication of your report and/or sections of your report, of course, remain a matter that you should and are able to keep under review. Those are our submissions, my Lady.

LADY JUSTICE THIRLWALL: Thank you very much indeed, Ms Langdale. So that concludes all the submissions and counsel's response. We'll adjourn now. I'm going to be sitting at 12 o'clock tomorrow to give some closing remarks and, if appropriate, I'll give you my decision on the application, but you'll be told about that sometime tomorrow morning, but whatever form the hearing takes, I don't foresee that it will take more than an hour for those of who you have to plan your lives. So thank you all very much for the submissions today and yesterday and I'll see you tomorrow." (4.13 pm)

(The Inquiry adjourned until 12.00 pm on Wednesday, 19 March 2025)

Oral Closing Submissions of Core Participants and Closing Remarks of Counsel to the Inquiry, Tuesday 18 March 2025 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Examining the events at the Countess of Chester Hospital and their implications following the trial, and subsequent convictions, of former neonatal nurse Lucy Letby of murder and attempted murder of babies at the hospital.

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

 

[JosieJo]

The statements of the parents detailing how the new defence "press conferences" have effected them is heartbreaking...as they say ..of course people have the right to appeal...but to plaster their child's death all over the media is disgusting
I still can't get the vision of Dr Lee making a joke about a buzzer going off and laughing out of my mind

 

[WaneLyrical]

Ok … sure.

And actually the whole point of the appeals process is bringing NEW information before the appeal judges that was not available at trial and question the verdict with that NEW information but the information brought at that frankly tawdry presser didn’t do that, it had been covered and debunked, cross examined and dismissed at the trial, re trial and two appeals.

As for your final comment I’m struggling to even understand it to be perfectly honest so I won’t even comment, except to say that if Letby and her Counsel conceded it in court but we are to consider it “ irrelevant “ then the earth must surely be flat.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course on this case but it’s no “ best of three “ you know.
It doesn’t work like that !

The insulin tests were not challenged, that’s the point. Everyone agreed it could only have been exogenous insulin. If there are experts of equal standing coming forward now to say that evidence should have been challenged, then why should it be waved away as “sorry you had your time in court, better luck next time”?

It’s absurd that this is our justice system and people support it. I have no idea if Letby is guilty or not, same as you, but what’s going on with the case currently is farcical whatever side of the fence you sit on.

 

[May72031]

The insulin tests were not challenged, that’s the point. Everyone agreed it could only have been exogenous insulin. If there are experts of equal standing coming forward now to say that evidence should have been challenged, then why should it be waved away as “sorry you had your time in court, better luck next time”?

It’s absurd that this is our justice system and people support it. I have no idea if Letby is guilty or not, same as you, but what’s going on with the case currently is farcical whatever side of the fence you sit on.

Weren't these "experts" engineers rather than endocrinologists? That is not "equal standing", by a long shot.

 

[joltz]

i hope the farce does by continuing its just showing what a farce it is

But it's not, not at all.

Where does that leave me then? I followed every day of the trial, I know the whole story, and I’m still of the opinion there’s no case to answer. Reasonable doubt was injected into every single aspect of this case. I still have no idea how the jury, or anyone else, can genuinely be convinced that murders were happening. Making the thirlwall inquiry a complete farce in my opinion.

If you think there's no case to answer, I think you should maybe consider that you have got it massively wrong.

No case to answer, but Letbys defence didn't pursue that. No case to answer yet every single juror believed Letby to be a murderer after viewing the evidence. No case to answer, yet two juries brought back unanimous verdicts for Letby.

So, yes, I think there was a case to answer. Im actually at a loss to comprehend how anyone could think that there wasn't.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

That’s not even true. The rose box contained a pristine copy of her first ever handover sheet. Everything else was either in the shopping bag under the bed, the new shopping bag (the Ibiza bag), or in various other places (the bin bag, the cardboard box). Is there any actual evidence other than a misleading metro article suggesting she separated out the harmed babies and kept all their documents together?

just testing.

 

[joltz]

The insulin tests were not challenged, that’s the point. Everyone agreed it could only have been exogenous insulin. If there are experts of equal standing coming forward now to say that evidence should have been challenged, then why should it be waved away as “sorry you had your time in court, better luck next time”?

It’s absurd that this is our justice system and people support it. I have no idea if Letby is guilty or not, same as you, but what’s going on with the case currently is farcical whatever side of the fence you sit on.

257 handover sheets suggests she tips the contents of her pockets into her “work bag” after every shift. A bag which ended up chucked under her bed, like many people who hoard rubbish tend to do, out of sight out of mind. It shouldn’t have happened. But it’s not like there was a pile of preserved handover notes relating specifically to the babies in the case. If she had this volume of handover notes and none of them related to these babies, it would look more suspicious.

Re Facebook, she searched everyone, thousands of searches, including many other patient families. Again, it would be more strange if the particular families in this case were suspiciously absent from her constant Facebook searching.

There is doubt about whether medical notes were falsified. The key one being Baby E, in which the consultant’s and midwife’s version of events also points to the parents being out by one hour.

There certainly is doubt about Jayaram catching her “virtually red handed”, when he failed to record it (despite already being suspicious of Letby) and failed to mention it to another soul until more than a year later after Letby’s grievance was upheld.

I’m not missing the point. The whole thing adds up to “there were murders, she was always there, therefore she’s the murderer”.

The handover debacle is absolutely relevant. It clearly shows that Letby was happy to break the rules from the moment she became a nurse despite being aware of the significance of patient data. If Letby had been found with the handover notes in any other circumstances she would possibly have lost her job and been prosecuted.


The handover notes aren't just bits of paper mixed in with other bits of paper they contain the confidential information of babies that died in Letbys care and for whom she was proven to be searching for online. It's a fact that Letby could not spell a family name for whom she was searching for online. She had the handover notes of almost every single baby in the charges underneath her bed. I wouldn't necessarily call them trophies but they gave Letby the ability to research and recount.

by her own wording, Letby was taking them home, removing them from her pockets, putting them into her workbag and then ferrying to and from work everyday.

I personally don't believe that she was doing this, but this clearly shows that she had an awareness of what she was doing every single day. She choose to take them home with purpose. What that purpose was is debatable but it's a fact that she purposely took home the handover notes and kept them underneath her bed, moved with them and took them with her. She kept some at her parents home. If these are bits of insignificant paper that you collect by habit then you don't keep some in a box marked "keep"

The handover notes had an absolute significance, Letby kept them and took them with purpose. She stored them underneath her bed and took them to multiple properties that she moved to.

The handovers provided a key insight into Letby's behaviour when testifying. She altered her version of events to suit the questions being asked at the time, while contradicting things she had said previously.

There had also been 2 recent patient data breaches at the hospital with paperwork which had made the local news, so this was an issue that Letby would have been very much aware of.

 

[Charlot123]

preserved like this?

"She was also found to have kept 21 handover sheets – documents including confidential details of a baby’s condition – that contained details relating to 13 of the children that she has been convicted of murdering or harming.

These objects were found in a pink box with roses on it, kept in ‘pristine’ condition in her bedroom at her semi-detached house in Westbourne Road."

Lucy Letby's 'treasure trove' of sick souvenirs she kept after killing babies

Among the mementos the killer nurse kept in her house, officers found thank you cards and resuscitation notes.

metro.co.uk

Just these ones? Or more? Because the prosecution said they thought more, only couldn’t prove…