UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

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  • #581
I can tell you that the NNU professionals on here, those that have taken the time and trouble over countless threads, to plain language the bits that those of us who have no knowledge of the NNU environment, in order to help us keep us with the trial, are hugely appreciated and remain an invaluable source of information and frame of reference on here.

We need no verification.

For you to try to undermine them, doubt them, treat them as if they're coming from an agenda-led place, totally ignoring the incredibly valuable contribution they've made on here over not just the trial period but to this very day, is so disgustingly low.

And all because you don't like what they have to say. For serious shame.

Respectfully. "We need no verification" is your right, but consequently, that puts your opinion at the level of any lay person. We are all anonymous here.

Lastly, please understand that my opinion has nothing to do with posters here. I don't "like or dislike" you. You have opinions. First Amendment.

LL's case weighs on the opinion of Dr. Evans. His level of expertise I question because he has been out of practice for fifteen years.

Breary and Jay are doctors. As I suspect, chronically overworked. I am listening to what they say but as of recent it is eyebrow-raising. I am watching YouTube videos, case by case, reading opinions of other specialists. It is illuminating. Yes I was impressed by the opinion of Dr. Lee and his group of experts, and honestly, they are far better educated than Dewi Evans.

However, I would love the case to be reviewed by credible UK experts as well. I hope it will be. I hope we are moving there.
 
  • #582
Absolutely none of this is correct, to my knowledge.

Neither registrar Harkness nor SHO Wood gave in-person evidence at the Inquiry. They gave witness statements which don't mention or admit any errors.


66. I have no other evidence to support the Inquiry. I have reviewed the various statements and documents provided to me by the Inquiry and consider my prior evidence to be accurate and have not made any public comment concerning the actions of Letby or the Inquiry.


43. I believe that my police statements, which I have previously exhibited as Exhibit CW/01 and CW/02 and I also exhibit my police statements dated 2 April 2019 [IN00013883], 30 July 2021 [IN00000061] and 20 November 2022 [INQ0000893] as Exhibits CW/03, CW/04 and CW/05, remain accurate to the best of my knowledge at the time given the lengthy timescales involved between the events, the statements and the present day.



We always knew that reg Harkness was on duty from 8.30-9pm from the trial.

"Dr Harkness, a paediatric registrar at the Countess of Chester Hospital in summer 2015, is being asked about Child E on the night shift of August 3.
He says they started that shift at about 8.30-9pm."
"He says the handover period would have lasted about 30 minutes."



Mother E said to the Inquiry:

Q. What did you make of those notes in relation to Child E?

A. I was absolutely furious when this arrived. It was --it's just not meaningful at all. And, you know, I felt the times were wrong on this document. I now know that the times were falsified. [...]


Q. Tell us why you challenged the timings and why you say at the time you thought it was sloppy?

A. So I challenged the timings because it stated that on 03/08, Child E had a gastro bleed at 2210 when in fact I know that that was an hour earlier.

Q. You knew he was bleeding an hour earlier?

A. I knew he was bleeding just before 9 o'clock and I pointed that out, and that was the time that I was that furious I contacted my mobile phone provider because I knew that I'd had a conversation with my husband as soon as I'd come back up, and I almost thought that I was losing my mind and I was wrong. So I wanted that proof that I was right, and I got that proof. I was right, and I knew what time it was.

Q. So the time here had been incorrectly stated in the records?

A. Yes.



Mother E first phoned her husband at 9.11pm:

Electronic records introduced into evidence -

"The phone records showing the calls made from Child E and Child F's mum to the father are also shown, including calls at 9.11pm and 10.52pm."




Honestly, the mis-reporting and twisting of information in this case is just horrendous.
To get an accurate timeline you need to separate the bleeding, the feeding, the phone calls and the doctor arriving. There isn’t one statement that covers it all, they were all discussed at different points in the inquiry drilling into statements made in court. I initially posted about it due to the varying timelines that kept changing between articles about the trail and what the mum said at the inquiry- my point at the time being that the news articles from the trial aren’t accurate reflections of information as dependent on which paper you read they varied.
 
  • #583
To get an accurate timeline you need to separate the bleeding, the feeding, the phone calls and the doctor arriving. There isn’t one statement that covers it all, they were all discussed at different points in the inquiry drilling into statements made in court. I initially posted about it due to the varying timelines that kept changing between articles about the trail and what the mum said at the inquiry- my point at the time being that the news articles from the trial aren’t accurate reflections of information as dependent on which paper you read they varied.
I did a detailed timeline during the trial, based on all the reports and testimony. None of those timings have changed.


Child E Timeline - Part 2 (from start of night shift of 3rd August 2015 to 11.30pm - links at end)

7.30pm to 8pm night shift – LL is designated nurse for twins E & F in room 1. Nurse Caroline Oakley was the shift-leader. There were 3 babies in room 2, one baby in room 3, and four babies in room 4. There is also a baby in the transitional care unit.

8pm - LL’s nursing note (written retrospectively at 4.51am): "Mummy was present at start of shift attending to cares." Defence suggests to the mother that she went down to the neonatal unit at 8pm, at the time of the handover. The mother disagrees.

8.30-9pm – Dr Harkness “Dr H” (registrar) started his shift. The handover period lasts about 30 mins.

Just before 9pm – (Unrecorded) Bleeding. E had blood around his mouth and was “screaming” (mother’s evidence).

Mother’s testimony;

Mother took her expressed breast milk down to the neonatal unit, room 1;
Mother heard E “screaming more than crying” from the corridor before she entered the room;
LL was the only other adult in room 1;
LL was not near E’s incubator, she was standing between the two incubators busy at a work station;
There was blood on E’s face around his chin, above his lip and partly on his neck;
Mother was there for about 10 minutes and she tried to calm him by placing one hand on his head and the other on his stomach;
Mother asked LL why he was bleeding;
LL told Mother the NGT was rubbing the back of E’s throat;
LL told Mother to go back to her ward, the registrar was on his way and if there was a problem someone would ring up to the ward.
Mother went back to the ward.

LL did not record bleeding in the notes or report bleeding to doctors. Mother agrees with defence that no other staff came into the room when E was screaming. Defence says mother didn’t come down at 9pm, she came down at 10pm with the milk; Mother disagrees. Defence says the screaming was not as bad as the mother describes; Mother disagrees.

Prior to 9pm – LL records a discarded 16ml mucky slightly bile-stained aspirate -

LL's nursing note written retrospectively at 4.51am: "prior to 21:00 feed, 16ml mucky slightly bile-stained aspirate obtained and discarded, abdo soft, not distended. SHO informed, to omit feed." (electronic evidence).

In police interview LL said she and another member of staff had disposed of the aspirate. (opening speech).

The SHO, Dr W, testified he had no recollection of receiving a report (a telephone call) of a bile-stained aspiration on the neonatal unit. He testified he would have recorded it in his notes and would have sought advice from the registrar (Dr Harkness). He testified he was in the paediatric unit and attended the neonatal unit (for the first time that night) at 11.40pm when a crash call was put out for E. He testified he was the only SHO covering paediatrics and neonatal unit that night, and Dr Harkness was the only registrar also covering those units that night.

9pmE’s milk feed due. Feeding chart: For the 9pm milk feed LL recorded 'omitted' and ‘discarded’ is recorded in a non-specific line. For aspirates the note ‘16ml mucky’ is made. (electronic evidence) LL made no record of the mother visiting at 9pm with the milk, or of the bleed the mother has testified to.

After 9pm
– In police interview LL said it was after 9pm that the SHO had reviewed E, but she couldn’t remember if it was face-to-face or over the phone. She said she had no independent memory of the conversation. (opening speech)

9.11pm to 9.15pmE’s mother phoned Father in a call lasting 4 mins 25 secs. She says she knew there was something very wrong. Father confirms that the mother was upset and very worried about bleeding from E’s mouth in this call. He said (at the time) he was sure the medical staff knew what they were doing and she was panicking over nothing.

9.11pm to 10.52pm – mother was waiting to hear about E, panicking and talking to the midwife. Mother had not seen this midwife before. She confirms the first name of the midwife was Susan. She was later told by a midwife to call her husband.

9.13pm – LL made a note in twin F’s records. (opening statement)

9.40pmSudden large vomit of fresh blood and 14ml aspirate. Registrar Dr David Harkness attended at LL’s request re. a ‘gastric bleed’. LL told him there had also been a large, very slightly bile-stained aspirate at approx. 9.10pm.

Dr H attended and wrote clinical note for 9.40pm at 10.10pm: “asked to see patient re: gastric bleed. Large, very slightly bile-stained aspirate 30 mins ago. Sudden large vomit of fresh blood and 14ml aspirate”. E was: “alert, pink, well perfused”, with an abdomen which was “soft, not distended” and no bowel sounds. The note adds “G I bleed? Cause”. (electronic evidence) See 10pm for Dr H’s testimony.

10pm – (see 9.40pm, for Dr H’s clinical note of the examination that finished around 10pm)

Dr H testimony - he was called to E (bleeped by LL) ‘at around 10pm’ because he had blood in his vomit. He recalls ‘small amounts of blood’, miniscule blood flecks were spotted when the NG tube was brought out of E. Dr H testifies it isn’t clear from his note how much of the 14ml aspirate contained fresh blood. He testifies the fresh blood was what he witnessed, having been called over to see it. He did not see E vomit, but saw the fresh blood as a product of it. He noted E's blood pressure was 'very good', a CRT reading was good, the heart rate was 'normal' and saturation rates were good, with minimal oxygen support. He testifies ‘at that point in time, everything is fine, except for the blood in the aspirate’. E was 'pink, well perfused', the lungs were 'clear', the abdomen was 'soft, not distended'. Dr H notes: 'GI bleed ? Cause', and tells the court that is a possible diagnosis for the bleeding, and a plan of action with administration of antibiotics is made. The note “close observation” is made, emphasising the designated nurse - LL - was to monitor E closely in room 1. Dr H says, from his recollection, he does not believe he left the unit as the bleed was 'something unusual' so he does not believe he went very far. Defence asks about the sequence of events, referring to a police statement Dr H made - "I was asked to review [E] by Letby. 'Looking at the notes it was 10pm-10.30pm...I only came on at 9pm'. He described, in the statement, the aspirate was largely mucusy. He said he could not be sure if there was a fleck of blood around E's face. '[E] looked relatively settled and there was nothing to suggest that was going to change'.

10pm - LL’s nursing notes: "At 10pm large vomit of fresh blood. 14ml fresh blood aspirate obtained from NG tube. Reg Harkness attended. Blood gas satisfactory..." Child E was 'handling well'. (electronic evidence)

10pm – LL made a further nursing note at 4.51am saying E’s mother had visited the neonatal unit at 10pm.

LL’s further note: “[Mother] visited again approx. 22:00. Aware that we had obtained blood from his NG tube and were starting some different medications to treat this. She was updated by Reg Harkness and contained [E]. Informed her that we would contact her if any changes. Once [E] began to deteriorate midwifery staff were contacted. Both parents present during resus.” (note shown during opening speech and first part reported in electronic evidence).

In police interview LL said she could remember the mother leaving after the ‘10pm visit’. (opening speech).

Mother’s testimony - Defence puts to the mother that she went to the neonatal unit with her breast milk; the mother “absolutely” disagrees. Defence suggests LL never mentioned the feeding tube irritating E; mother disagrees. Defence asks if there was a conversation between LL, a doctor, and her, regarding medication; Mother disagrees and says she was told (at 9pm visit) a doctor would be down to see [E].

Registrar Dr H is asked about LL’s [later] nursing note. Dr H testified he does not know what 'contained' meant in the context. He says he does not remember if the mother was present at that time. Defence says a 'containment technique' was a technique used to calm a baby. Defence says “all of what had happened in the 10.10pm note, had happened by 10.10pm.” Dr H testified this was a 40-minute period of several year ago, this was potentially a period of 9.30-10.10pm. In his police statement, Dr H said he would have been 'bleeped' by LL. He said he had seen 'a dirty aspirate which may have contained blood flecks and bile'. Defence says his police statement said “[E] had 'nothing dramatic' around the baby's face, and could not be sure if there were any blood flecks. [E] was 'not in distress' and 'appeared fine'.” Dr H says he does not know if he saw [E]'s mother, and does not have a clear recollection. He says it could be the case, looking at the notes provided. Defence asks if Dr H had 'any particular concerns' from the first reading. Dr H says there wasn't. Prosecution then ask about the timing of Dr H 'meeting the mother of Child E'. Dr H said that would have been the case, based on the nursing note. The prosecution ask if that was from looking at LL’s note. Dr H agrees. The prosecution say Dr H's clinical note does not refer to meeting the family. Dr H said it could be documented, but would depend on the level of detail of the discussion.

Bef.10.52pm – neonatal unit contacted the midwife and told of E’s deterioration.

10.52pm – Mother’s phone called the father’s phone. (electronic evidence) Mother doesn’t remember details of the call. Midwife spoke to the father telling him to come to the hospital, after the neonatal unit rang the ward. Defence suggests this is the call where mother told the father about [E] bleeding, and the mother was not as worried at the 9.11pm call as she was at 10.52pm; Mother disagrees with all of that. Father says this call was split between the midwife and the mother and he was told not to panic but to get over here now. He testifies bleeding was not referred to in this call.

By 11pm – LL called registrar back to see E - 13ml blood from NGT on free-drainage, E crying and beginning to decline.

A neonatal fluid balance chart has no name or notes for the 11pm column. LL’s retrospective nursing notes said: 'NG tube on free drainage. Further 13mls blood obtained by 11pm. Beginning to desaturate and perfusion poor. Oxygen given via Neopuff'. E was said by LL to be 'cold to the touch' and was beginning to 'decline'. (electronic evidence)

11pm – Registrar Dr H noted: '13ml blood-stained fluid from NGT on free drainage.' E's blood pressure was 'stable' and saturates' remained 60-70%', and 'making good respiratory effort', and was 'crying'. A plan of action, including x-rays and medication, was made. (electronic evidence).

Consultant’s testimony – she was on call in hospital accommodation and had phone contact with the registrar. “This [sats 60-70% despite being on 100% oxygen] suggests something dramatic has changed in his clinical condition. It suggests there’s not a problem with his breathing effort that is making his oxygen saturation low.” [she would arrive at the unit at 12.25am].

Dr H’s testimony - LL called him into room 1, where 'Further ‘GI’ blood loss and desaturation to 70%' is noted. A '13ml blood-stained fluid from NGT on free drainage' is noted. He says he remembers seeing 'fresh, red blood in the tube', with the contents of the stomach. He says the free drainage setup would have allowed the vomit to come out rather than go into the baby's lungs. He testifies the origin of the blood must have come from somewhere in the oesophageal tract, down to the stomach. It rules out blood coming from the lungs. The saturates 'remained 60-70% in 100% O2', Dr H said 'because of E's condition', the oxygen requirement had gone up from 'minimal support'. He says E was still trying to breathe at this time. The comment 'crying' is added in the note. Dr H testified E is still well enough to be awake and conscious to cry. He said just the note 'crying' would suggest it was a 'typical cry'. Dr H says the fact E was crying would mean he would have had to have been taking deep breaths to do so. The plan of action was 'replace losses' - getting fluid back in. 'Strict fluid balance'. Dr H says he is planning to intubate E and do an x-ray to check Child E's lungs and abdomen to try and explain why the baby was deteriorating. The type of intubation was 'elective', which was not on the level of 'an emergency situation', Dr H testified. Dr H testified he planned to discuss the result of the x-ray with surgeons at Alder Hey and seek advice from them. Dr H testified he would then have been preparing to intubate and get the equipment ready. X-exam – His police statement says: “However, around half an hour to an hour later [after the 10pm examination] there was a large amount of fluid which came up the tube. From memory it was 12-14ml of blood which for a baby was a substantial amount'. Dr H says ‘[E] brought up further 'fresh blood' in quantities which he had 'not seen [in sudden cases] since'. Dr H agrees the second note, with blood vomit, was 'more concerning' and suggested a gastrointestinal bleed. Defence asks if such a bleed was serious; Dr H: "Potentially". Defence suggests that a GI bleed should have led to a blood transfusion. Dr H says if there were other observations which collated that, he would have done so, but at this point, he would not have done so, as the blood vomit could have had other causes. He said a blood transfusion 'may have come up in a conversation' with a fellow doctor. Defence asks why that wasn't documented. Dr H says he cannot answer that. The '13ml blood-stained fluid' is a 'significant quantity' Dr H confirms. Defence said this follows other blood which came out earlier, and a typical baby would have had something 'in the region of 120ml' in him at that time. Dr H agrees. Defence said there had been 27mls of blood and aspirate taken from him in that time, which was 'up to a quarter' of E's blood; Dr H agrees. Defence says the heart rate is 'normal', but the saturation rate is 'low', the heart rate 'should be higher'; Dr H says "Not necessarily - there are multiple factors to that. It's part of a separate conversation with expert witnesses, it is not as simple as saying one reading should go up in line with others.” He says blood pressure was normal, and there were other factors to consider. Defence says the pairing of heart rate and saturations is 'not normal'. Dr H says it is abnormal in the sense that the heart rate is normal and the saturations rate is abnormal.

SHO Dr W is questioned by the defence about a clinical note: ‘plan - discuss with surgeons, with x-rays’ – he is asked if he was aware surgeons at the CoCH were capable of performing gastric surgery on a neonate the size of [E]. SHO says he is not aware of that, and most likely this would be done at Alder Hey Hospital.



c.11.10pm to 11.40pm – preparations were made for the elective intubation

11.28pm-11.30pm
– Dr H testifies prescriptions were made from 11.28pm-11.30pm for a number of drugs for E.

11.30pm - observation chart has blood pressure and respiratory rate recorded, no record of heart rate made, and blank readings for cot temperature, and no initials recorded. Midwife Susan Brookes says she had a call from the neonatal unit to ask the mother to go down in 30 minutes as E had a bleed and required intubating, “very poorly”. The mother was upset and asked to go sooner. (midwife’s testimony)

Child E Timeline - Part 3 (from 11.40pm 3rd August 2015 to end of night shift 4th August 2015 - links at end)

11.40pmBaby E’s 1st collapse (of 3) - with purple-blue blotching over abdomen.

11.40pm - LL retrospective nursing notes: "11.40pm became Bradycardiac, purple band of discolouration over abdomen, perfusion poor, CRT 3secs. "Emergency intubation successful and placed on ventilator." LL’s further notes at 4.51am: 'Required 100% oxygen, saturations 80%, SIMV 22/5 rate 60. Further saline bolus and morphine bolus given. 2nd peripheral line sited. Once [E] began to deteriorate, midwifery staff were contacted." (electronic evidence). Although LL was participating in the resuscitation, she co-signed for medication given to a baby in room 4. (opening speech)

11.40pm - Dr H’s clinical notes, written retrospectively: 'Sudden deterioration at 11.40pm, brady 80-90bpm, sats 60%, poor perfusion, colour change over abdomen purple discoloured patches'. The note adds, after an improvement in sats, 'purple discolouration in abdomen remained', and a plan of action noted for E. (electronic evidence)

11.40pm - Dr H testifies that prior to 11.40pm, E was still to be 'under close observation' by LL. Dr H testifies he was in the room when the 'sudden deterioration' happened, and was there with LL and another nurse. Those nurses “would have been gathering the drugs to be administered”. Dr H testified: "This was a strange pattern over the tummy and abdomen, which didn't fit with the poor perfusion - the rest was still pink, but there were these strange purple patches." “Some of the patches were still pink, but others were purple-blue, and were unusual. Dr H likens the purple-blue colour to “what you would see after going for a swim in cold water and coming out, with 'purple-blue' colour on the lips.” “The rest of the skin was 'normal colour'. The abdomen had 'purple patches', which didn't fit with an anatomical part of the body, it is difficult to describe in any detail, without a photo.” Dr H testified he has seen this in Child A before and had not seen it on any other baby, outside of the babies in the case. “The patches were 'different sizes' and in the region of 1-2cm big - 'not dots'. The areas were 'on the abdomen - not above the chest or below the groin - in the middle section'. The patches 'did not fit with the perfusion' seen. If the abdomen was dusky or white, then the whole of the body would gradually take that colour too. In the case of an affected blood supply, the blood would be lost from the legs first and the body would pull the blood 'into the middle of the body'”. X-exam - A nursing colleague had referred to 'discoloured abdomen' in a retrospectively written note at 1.30am. Defence says Dr H had referred to the discolouration being 'strange' and 'unusual', and 'appearing and disappearing' - that does not appear in the medical note. Dr H says that observation had "stayed with him" and the clinical note he made at the time was not 'forensic'. Defence reads out part of Dr H's police statement, referring to the discolouration being on the abdomen. Dr H says he does not recall the part of the statement of the discolourations' 'path to the body', and said he would not agree with the wording of that. Dr H testified he has not been in discussions with anyone in relation to these observations. Defence says by October 2018 (the time of his police statement), there had been discussions in the hospital about the skin discolourations. Dr H testified there were discussions to say it was unusual, but refutes any of the details of the discolourations had been discussed. Defence says Dr H is 'putting details together' from various observations. Dr H: "No." Defence says Child A's skin discolouration, as referred to by Dr H in court earlier in the trial, were not mentioned in the clinical note at the time, or the note to the coroner [for Child A]. Defence says 'red patches' found on Child A were not mentioned for Child E. Dr H testified the overall discolouration observations were 'similar enough'. Prosecution re-direct - Dr H's interview with police Sept 2018 is relayed to the court. Dr H is asked about the skin discolouration, and says it is 'similar [between Child A and Child E]' and is not a rash. The interview transcript says E's discolouration was 'around the abdomen and chest', with 'purple patches' that 'suddenly come on'. "It came so quickly - not affected by the monitors or anything". "It was just these purple and pale patches". He was asked in the police interview if that was symptomatic of other cases, and Dr H said it was not.

11.40pm - Dr Wood SHO working in the paediatric unit immediately attended upon a crash call for E. He doesn’t recall being in the neonatal unit that night before 11.40pm. He signed a prescription for morphine for E. The accompanying medical note by Dr W says: Sats 60-70%, morphine bolus – sats improved to 80%. He says resuscitation had already begun upon his arrival. He recorded notes. He recorded staff present – a team of 6 – including himself, Dr H, another doctor, and three senior nurses including LL.

11.45am – E was intubated as an emergency and put on a ventilator. Morphine administered – purple discolouration remained – bleeding settled

Dr H’s testimony - Dr H's notes record 'intubated as an emergency at 11.45pm'. He says although there were risks associated with this, the 'safer option' for E was to do things as an emergency. An ET tube was inserted, with 'good air and chest movement' recorded, and the tube was recorded to be in the correct place. E was also 'put on ventilator', with 100% oxygen. The saturation readings were '60-70%', and after a morphine bolus was administered, those improved to 80%. The 'purple discolouration of abdomen remained', it is noted. E's blood pressure had dropped but was still in the normal range. The plan was to administer further medication, but there was a concern that administering a drug to make the heart beat faster would lead to 'worse bleeding'. Dr H says 'from his recollection' the blood had settled and there was no further substantial amount of blood recorded. The court hears the preparations are made for the intubation during that half hour (prior). Dr H disagrees with the defence that it was a "delay" and was using his time "appropriately". "You make more mistakes when you are not taking your time." Defence says the blood transfusion is mentioned for the first time at a later note, after 11.40pm. Dr H says it would not have been appropriate to give more saline boluses without administrating fresh blood. He disagrees a blood transfusion was not considered earlier. He says his documentation is not as thorough as it would be now, and agrees in hindsight, it should have been documented more clearly. Defence says the intubation should have happened earlier. Dr H says there are benefits to an elective intubation compared to an emergency intubation, as the latter could cause stress and complications to the baby. He said that 'now' this would still have been the course to take in that situation.

Consultant’s testimony – she disagrees they were too slow to intubate E.

12 midnight - Mother (and father) with midwife returned to the neonatal unit and sat in the corridor while E was being worked on by medics. Midwife left after 10 minutes and mum was eventually allowed in once E had been stabilised.


4 Aug 2015, Tuesday

12.15am –
LL’s notes: heart rate 'down from where it had been earlier', and a drop in temperature, recording he was on 100% oxygen. (electronic evidence)

12.25am - Consultant paediatrician arrived at the neonatal unit. (electronic evidence) When she got there E’s blood oxygen level was 80% in 100% oxygen. “they’ve improved since ventilation but they’re still not as good as we would like them to be”. (consultant’s testimony)

12.27amChest and abdomen x-rayed - An x-ray is taken at 12.27am, relating to the chest and abdomen. (electronic evidence)

Consultant’s testimony – x-ray showed E’s heart size was normal and his lungs were clear. “there’s no indication from the x-ray why E’s saturation was low” she says.

Dr H’ testimony – Defence asks why a consultation with surgeons was required following x-rays; Dr H says advice would have been taken from them once the extra results would have been acquired from the x-rays. Defence says he could have been dealing with a 'very serious situation indeed'; Dr H: "Potentially." Dr H says things were "changing" but E was still "stable". Defence: "Are you suggesting that a baby who has lost a quarter of its blood is not an emergency situation?"; Dr H: "What I'm suggesting is there are things to do and there is time to do it." Defence says transfusion was not being considered at this point, and one of the 'obvious things' to consider - "It is something you had failed to consider, isn't it?"; Dr H says it was likely considered, but accepts it was not documented at the 11pm note. Defence suggests it was a "serious mistake" not to consider blood transfusion; Dr H: "I disagree." Defence: "I would suggest you were out of your depth at this point"; Dr H: "I disagree, that is wrong and disrespectful to my ability." Defence says blood transfusion is not considered; Dr H: "we do have a plan, and we do have a discussion with a consultant."

Shortly after 12.30am – LL’s notes: Shortly after 12.30am Child E was placed on breathing support and given medication after resuscitation. (electronic evidence)


12.36amBaby E’s 2nd collapse (of 3).

LL’s note: 'Resus commenced as documented'. (electronic evidence)

The consultant noted: CPR commenced, along with ventilations, and medications. (electronic evidence)

Consultant’s testimony – her notes say E’s: blood oxygen had fallen to 50-60% in 100% oxygen and he had no detectable heart rate. CPR was started. She was the team leader for the resuscitation efforts – she wouldn’t get involved in the physical tasks because “you lose awareness of the overall situation”. She says they did discuss blood transfusion but it’s not in the notes made. She agrees she should have gone to the unit sooner but doesn’t think she would have made any different decisions (from the doctors who were there).

Dr H testimony - Dr H said he and a colleague were stood at the end of the incubator, discussing what medication and plans were being put in place for E, when E collapsed. Dr H recalls the resuscitation efforts began. Defence refers to E's collapse 'in front of the medical staff'. He says by this point, "there had still been no transfusion"; Dr H said there was no further evidence of bleeding after the second bleed. Defence: "The reaction to the second haemorrhage was far too slow wasn't it?"; Dr H disagrees.

12.37am – SHO Dr Wood recorded efforts to resuscitate E from 12.37am. 5 doses of adrenaline were administered.


12.50am - A blood transfusion is started for E at 12.50am, and several adrenaline doses are administered. (electronic evidence)

Dr H’s testimony - Defence says a blood transfusion, for O-negative blood, is noted at 12.50am on the medical notes. Dr H says the O-negative blood [a type which can be suitable for all blood transfusions] would be used in this instance as seeking a specifically matched blood type at this stage would take too long in acquiring it from the donor fridge.

Consultant testimony - says she does not think a late blood transfusion led to E’s collapse and death.

1.01am - LL's nursing note, for 1.01am, reads: 'chest compressions no longer required'. (electronic evidence)

The SHO recorded: chest compressions stop at 1.01am, with ventilations continuing.

Dr H’s testimony: [E]'s heart rate recovered at 1.01am, and the parents had arrived by that time.


1.15am
Baby E’s 3rd and final (fatal) collapse

LL notes: 'further decline, resus recommenced'. (electronic evidence)

SHO Dr W recorded: E’s heart rate fell again and CPR recommenced.

Dr H’s testimony - He tells the court the blood supply was 'very poor'. He says during CPR, blood was coming out of Child E's nose and mouth, suggesting the blood pressure was low. He says the sight was "not very nice, particularly". Dr H is asked about the bleeding seen on E. He says: "I have never seen it in a baby, to this extent." He says he had seen the level of blood in a teenager, but not, relatively, in a baby as small as E. Defence says, in 'distressing detail' relayed by Dr H earlier in court, it had been discussed about blood coming from E's mouth and nose during CPR. Dr H said blood would 'keep coming out' until the cause of it is found. Defence says the cause of death would be 'acute blood loss'; Dr H said that cannot be known without a post-mortem examination. He says the blood loss could be a factor, but it is not 'black and white'. He said it was 'not his place' to call for a post-mortem examination. Defence says the blood loss seen would normally be 'fatal'; Dr H said it could be 'linked'. Defence asks if the actions taken were 'far too slow'; Dr H: "No." "Would you have admitted it if it was?"; "Yes."

Time? - Dr H’s testimony – A pathology report for [E] is shown, with 'PT and APTT' readings. Those are two tests for blood clotting measurements. They were 'high, but not enough to be shocked by'. The readings were 19.5 and 53.6, compared to the normal ranges of '12.5-15' and '26-35' respectively.

1.23am - CPR was discontinued at 1.23am

LL notes: 'resus discontinued when [E] was given to parents. [E] was actively bleeding.' (electronic evidence)

SHO Dr W notes: CPR stopped and E was cleaned.

1.24am – SHO Dr W notes: ventilation efforts stopped and E was given to his parents.

Shortly before 1.30am – LL’s notes: resus was needed again, but was sadly unsuccessful (electronic evidence)


1.40am The time of death was recorded as 1.40am on August 4. No post-mortem was conducted.

Murder charge Child E – air (allegedly) injected into bloodstream and bleeding indicative of trauma.

Links:
Opening speech – Chester Standard Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders
Opening speech – ITV Who are the children alleged to have been murdered by Lucy Letby? | ITV News
Mother’s and father’s testimony – Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, November 14
Unnamed nurse’s testimony (day shift) – Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 15
Electronic evidence – Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, November 14
Dr Wood (SHO)’s testimony – Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 15
Dr Harkness’s testimony – Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17
Consultant’s testimony – UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*
Midwife’s witness statement - Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 15
Supplementary text details Daily Mail Colleagues of Lucy Letby told her she was 'terrible run of bad luck'
 
  • #584
That's phenomenal, Tortoise.
 
  • #585
In the inquiry we discovered that wasn’t a lie, the doctor had said he didn’t arrive until after 10 in the trial, but accepts now he was there at 9.30, if not before, after being quizzed in the inquiry about other notes that he had made. The mum left the unit and made a phone call at 9.25- Those timings suggest he was called when LL said and not as was testified at trial. He really got quizzed about it and I shared his testimony to the inquiry a while back, he admitted his error.

It comes back to how people’s recollections change- the timeline of this whole process has left too much room and space for people to doubt their own recollection of the experiences anymore, add to that incredibly poor paper trails- it’s not surprising we are in the situation we are now.

One thing that must be tightened up is the doctors and nurses responsibility for either writing up or reading through other people’s notes. I believe it was someone experienced on here who explained that there is always a note taking doctor during resuscitation- but the only notes we seem to hear about are the ones LL completed. You would think the doctors notes would be shared around at this point to highlight the inaccuracies in LL’s but there doesn’t seem to be many, if any, at all that contradict what happened, they seem to have either left LL to write them or solidified hers with their own simplified notes. Is there a childs evidence whose case was based on different write ups- that to me would be strong evidence of her covering up and lying.
That’s just not true.
 
  • #586
In the inquiry we discovered that wasn’t a lie, the doctor had said he didn’t arrive until after 10 in the trial, but accepts now he was there at 9.30, if not before, after being quizzed in the inquiry about other notes that he had made.
The issue is that LL claimed she called the doctor for help at 9 pm---she told Baby E's mother that at about 9:05 or so----when Mom saw her baby bleeding and crying.

But that was a lie.Lucy had NOT called for help.
The mum left the unit and made a phone call at 9.25- Those timings suggest he was called when LL said and not as was testified at trial.

NO----that was NOT what LL testified to. She claimed the mother did NOT come to the nursery at 9 pm with breast milk. She denied that the mother saw her baby screaming and bleeding at 9 pm.

But mom left the nursery about 9ish and went back to her floor and called her husband at 9:10----she was crying and upset and TOLD HER HUSBAND about their baby bleeding and in pain.

THEIR PHONE RECORDS corroborate that timeline. Those records showed that Lucy was incorrect.
He really got quizzed about it and I shared his testimony to the inquiry a while back, he admitted his error.
That^^^ had nothing to do with Lucy's LIES about the baby being bleeding and in pain at 9 pm.

Lucy denied that ever happened. It was her word against the parents of the deceased child.

They were proven right at the trial because Lucy did not call the doctor before 9 pm, as she had told the parents. She did not call consultant to report a problem until after 9:30pm. And even then, she NEVER said the child was bleeding from his mouth. She only reported that there were flecks of blood in his diaper.

Also, Lucy was a caught LYING about the 9 pm scheduled feeding. Lucy claimed that the doctor cancelled the Feed. Lucy wrote CANCELLED in her medical notes.

That was proven to be untrue. The consultant had no notes or references to cancelling the feed, and testified that he had no prior contact or info about baby E, that would allow him to cancel a feeding. He had not heard anything about the child until LL called at 9:30.
It comes back to how people’s recollections change- the timeline of this whole process has left too much room and space for people to doubt their own recollection of the experiences anymore, add to that incredibly poor paper trails- it’s not surprising we are in the situation we are now.
NO, it was not a poor paper trail. It was falsified paperwork that was the problem here. I followed the trial closely. Lucy was falsifying her daily logs to try and cover up her movements.

She got caught in the baby E case because the mom walked in and saw her Baby bleeding and screaming. He was dying of a massive internal haemorrhage the next time Mom saw him, within a few hours.

Lucy tried to convince the jury that mom never saw her baby bleeding from his mouth, and mom never came to the nursery at 9 pm with milk. Mom was adamant that she did and she had called her husband, who also testified in court, about that frightening phone call. But his wife had said that the doctor was already on his way and she was going to go back and check on him.

Lucy tried to deny that any of that happened. She said the parents were 'mistaken. ' The mom must have been confused, and didn't really see any blood, and didn't really come to the nursery at 9 pm.

The jury could easily see who was telling the truth.
One thing that must be tightened up is the doctors and nurses responsibility for either writing up or reading through other people’s notes. I believe it was someone experienced on here who explained that there is always a note taking doctor during resuscitation- but the only notes we seem to hear about are the ones LL completed. You would think the doctors notes would be shared around at this point to highlight the inaccuracies in LL’s but there doesn’t seem to be many, if any, at all that contradict what happened,
There were notes that highlighted LL's inaccuracies in Baby E's case. The consultants notes showed that hers were WRONG when she said he cancelled the feed. His notes showed he did no such thing.

Then Lucy tried to say she couldn't remember who exactly told her to cancel the 9 pm feed. It may have been someone else. But there was no one else who would have because he was the on call consultant on duty at that time.

If he didn't cancel the FEED, then the mother was correct that she went to the nursery with her milk at 9 pm, just as she claimed. And just as her husband remembered, and just as her phone records showed. and just like their midwife testified.

The only one whose story conflicted with the mom, dad, midwife and consultant was LL's---and LL had valid reasons to deny that Baby E was bleeding from his mouth at 9 pm. Because she never told the consultant about him actively bleeding from the mouth----she waited until 9:30 and then called and left a message about 'flecks of blood' in his diaper. That is much less serious a situation.

He died hours later after losing 1/4 of his total blood.
they seem to have either left LL to write them or solidified hers with their own simplified notes. Is there a childs evidence whose case was based on different write ups- that to me would be strong evidence of her covering up and lying.
 
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  • #587
I’m having Deja vu- I will try and find it all again and share in irritating screenshot fashion as I can’t cut and paste.
I don't know where you are getting your information about the Baby E case. Someone has steered you wrong.

Lucy doubling down and calling the parents of Baby E out, accusing them of 'misremembering' or lying, about the death of their Baby Boy was a massive error on Lucy's part.

It was her version of events, her timeline, against the 2 parents, the midwife and the consultant. And they had their own notes and phone records which corroborated their timelines.

Lucy only had her own handwritten notes, which were shown to be falsified after all was said and done.

You had 2 grieving parents, tearing up as they painfully remembered their child's last hours on Earth, and testified under oath. They had clear memories and lots of details surrounding his death. It was very emotional testimony.

Then you had Lucy, with her barrister insisting the parents were not remembering correctly. Claiming the mother did not come to the nursery at 9 pm for her scheduled feed. Mom claims she was there with her expressed breast milk, and walked in on her baby screaming in pain, bleeding from his mouth.

Lucy denied all of that ever happened, Mom must be mistaken, she never came to nursery at 9, there was no bleeding, that never happened-----and yet mom called Dad at 9 pm and cried in anguish and told him what had happened. And her phone records corroborate that call.

All Lucy could do was keep claiming they were mistaken. Lucy denied the baby was bleeding and denied saying she told Mom she had called the doctor for help already.

But both parents gave very convincing testimony. And the facts were on their side. There was a 9 pm feeding scheduled for Babie E and F. And Mom did go to express her milk at 8:30 pm. And phone records did show mom called her husband at 9:10 pm.

So the jury had to decide who seemed more credible.

Lucy had written CANCELLED over the 9 pm feed scheduled in the daily log.

But in court, she was unable to verify who exactly approved that CANCEL. The attending consultant had no record of doing so. And had no record of observing or treating Baby E earlier so would have no reason to Cancel his feeding. He testified he had no memory of doing so and no notes indicating he made that decision.

It appeared to be a falsified claim by Lucy. IMO

Bottom Line---Lucy claimed the baby was not bleeding at 9 pm, and only reported flecks of blood in his diaper, not active bleeding. But just a few hours later he collapsed, unresponsive, and had massive internal hemmorhage , ultimately losing 1/4 of his blood.

So who is the jury going to believe?
 
  • #588
In the inquiry we discovered that wasn’t a lie, the doctor had said he didn’t arrive until after 10 in the trial, but accepts now he was there at 9.30, if not before, after being quizzed in the inquiry about other notes that he had made. The mum left the unit and made a phone call at 9.25- Those timings suggest he was called when LL said and not as was testified at trial. He really got quizzed about it and I shared his testimony to the inquiry a while back, he admitted his error.

Dr Harkness provided a statement to the inquiry which did not contradict his trial testimony. I searched the witness schedule and was unable to find where he gave testimony to Thirlwall. Are we thinking of the same doctor?


 
  • #589
I’m having Deja vu- I will try and find it all again and share in irritating screenshot fashion as I can’t cut and paste.
are you sure it happened? I don't think it did.
 
  • #590
Many of the babies who collapsed were Level 1 condition, and ready to be released. There were 27 unexplained collapses, and they were not all level 2 condition at that time. That's the reason the collapses were deemed unexpected and unexplained.


The babies who collapsed were not untreated and poorly cared for. Their vitals were good and strong, and many were about to be sent home.

One can always find a potential natural explanation for a preemie's death. But 27 collapses, with such unnatural responses to resuscitation defy the 'natural cause' explanation.

When taken one at a time, one can explain it away as an outlier case---a baby that seemed fine but actually was on the verge of sudden death. But how many of those 'outlier' cases can there naturally be?

And every one of them happens in the middle of the night? So they transfer Letby to daytime shift and suddenly the collapses only happen in the daytime. I don't care how many explanations one tries to give for that big coincidence.

Add that to the curious fact that these sudden collapses didn't happen when Nurse Letby was away on her 2 week vacations. But on the day she'd leave for vacay, and on the day she returned, there's be collapses and/or deaths, each time.

A baby would have strong vitals, eating well, resting well, designated nurse would go to dinner----she'd come back and Nurse Letby would be helping with the emergency resuscitation. That happened a lot/


And she got caught in lies during her trial. There was evidence that she falsified some of her medical logs to try and make it look like she was nowhere near the collapsed baby. But OTHER paperwork and electronic data often showed otherwise. She was caught in some damning lies that she could not explain.

Because they were...

it wasn't just proximity. If you followed the entire trial you'd see there was a lot more to it.

The mother of Baby E walked on the assault of her baby, found him screaming and bleeding from the mouth, but Letby was able to lie her way out of it at first. She claimed she'd called for the doctor---which was a LIE.

But during the trial, the ugly truth came out. The jury saw 2 grieving parents, sincerely describing what happened to their baby boy. Letby denied their claims and called them mistaken, if not deceitful. She said there was no blood and the mother didnt come with milk at 9 pm. She said the 9 pm feed was cancelled by the doctor.

But the parents had phone logs to corroborate their timeline, and Letby's medical logs contained some false information, designed to make the baby's mother look wrong or dishonest. But the midwife and the consultant denied Letby's claims. He never cancelled that 9 pm feeding.


Yes, but the 'explained' deaths were RE-explained, not de-explained.
It’s a complete red flag to me when people state that the mother of one of the babies walked in while Letby was assaulting the baby. Why? Because it seems to me that if there was any hint of a trace of a suggestion that a baby was being assaulted by anyone then this would’ve likely attracted more attention and caused significant controversy at the time. Once you’ve decided Letby is a killer, once you’ve been shown a faulty chart that all but confirms that she was the common factor, of course at that point every interaction featuring Letby during a period of unbearable trauma for these parents is now freighted with incredible significance and malevolence. But if you decouple this circumstantial incident from Letby’s predetermined guilt and view it in that light, the facts do not conclusively show that Letby was assaulting the child but rather this framing is another example of the emotive behaviour of the prosecution in constructing the case against Letby.
 
  • #591
You've got this one massively wrong but you are too far gone to change your stance. Maybe you would be better suited over at the Letby trials Reddit. I suppose you are already on there though...

JMO
what do I have wrong? I read the actual transcript of this exchange and the idea that it shows Letby as a liar is ridiculous and completely unfounded.

It’s an attempt by the prosecution to shame her. And when she tried to wave away a line of questioning about a personal text in which the implications is that she might not be wearing knickers for her ‘boyfriend’ on the ward, the lawyer implies she’s a liar because she says she doesn’t know what ‘go commando’ means. The average 6 year old schoolboy knows what ‘go commando’ means. Letby was batting that line of questioning away because it was intended to humiliate her and paint her as having bad character for the crime of engaging in some risqué banter at work. The idea that this proves her a liar is literally asinine.

And no I’m not on that forum but I have seen a lot of people on there genuinely trying to engage with the facts while trying to figure out what happened.

We can all accuse each other of being too far gone. But I’m honestly not seeing any persuasive rebuttals to the flaws in the prosecution case from those who have faith in Letby’s guilt.
 
  • #592
Once you’ve decided Letby is a killer, once you’ve been shown a faulty chart that all but confirms that she was the common factor, of course at that point every interaction featuring Letby during a period of unbearable trauma for these parents is now freighted with incredible significance and malevolence. But if you decouple this circumstantial incident from Letby’s predetermined guilt and view it in that light, the facts do not conclusively show that Letby was assaulting the child but rather this framing is another example of the emotive behaviour of the prosecution in constructing the case against Letby.
What was "faulty" about the chart? I keep hearing the claim being made, but nobody can ever explain why it was faulty.
 
  • #593
The original chart shows who was on duty when each charge on the indictment occured. Surely the prosecution has to show this to make their case? Where the defendant was when the alleged crime took place is discussed in all trials.
Have you ever heard the quotation, ‘Lies, damned lies, and statistics’? It refers to how you can basically twist statistics to seemingly prove almost anything. In psychological research, I think there’s a statistical term for it called p-hacking. The motivations and incentives of researchers in psychology to have their research turn out meaningful in order to substantiate their theories and advance their careers led them to fiddle with statistics or be led by their own biases and it resulted in the replication crisis.

So, to answer your question, it is absolutely not a straightforward document of fact. In order to estimate the likelihood of Letby being present for these collapses you must extend the chart to include *all* the relevant data. That would include the full picture, all the shifts on which allegedly suspicious incidents happened that Letby was not present for. It would also include similar spikes at other hospitals. It would also include the full shift data for all employees. If Letby was on shift for every single clear cut incident deemed suspicious and there was a clear definition and methodology as to how these suspicions were identified then, okay, at that point you *would* have something like a strong coincidence. But the prosecution made a mess of handling this evidence. You can read about this in the Unherd article.

When you actually construct the real chart of what happened including all the data from Dr Evan’s initial statements to the police and so forth, you find that collapses were reclassified from suspicious to explained not on the basis of any discernible cogent medical reasons but whether Letby was on shift. There are a host of such examples which completely undermine this chart as valid evidence.

To give an analogy, saying this chart is simply a factual document is a bit like when an incumbent government reclassifies the definitions and cooks the figures on crime in order to make itself look good and taking these new statistics at face value. It was also likened to the sharpshooter’s fallacy, where you fire your bullets into the tree and only after the fact draw your target around your shots to demonstrate your good aim.
 
  • #594
I don't think anyone can disagree that Dr Lee approached this matter from the point of view of staunch disagreement with the trial experts over the air embolism evidence, and has self-determined himself to be an absolute authority on it. As the individual who convened the expert panel, to come up with something different, unless the other experts can demonstrate that they considered ALL possibilities, he has tainted and discredited the entire panel as independent non-partisan trial witnesses. JMO
Yes, he staunchly disagrees with the trial experts over the air embolism evidence. Not only that, he’s demonstrated that they haven’t understood it and he will demonstrate that again at any appeal. His credentials, Modi’s credentials, the rest of the panel, the supposed other 50 experts who have also been reported to be in touch with Dr Hammond and David Davis and other journalists and people writing books. And credentialed bodies in entirely separate fields such as statistics. The evidence casting doubts on the conviction is mounting. The panel was conducted as a blind peer review study. The prosecution is not even pretending they approach their findings in a similar manner. Dr Evans is far and away the main expert and some of the other prosecution experts have contributed very little, essentially rubber-stamping Evans’ original analysis of the case notes. These witnesses have reviewed his work and found it badly wanting. They massively outrank him, and I’m pretty sure that would be apparent at any appeal judging from what’s currently in the public domain.

As far as I’m aware, no expert witnesses have since come to defend the prosecutions original findings. I would say that’s more than instructive given the visibility of this case in the public square.
 
  • #595
It’s a complete red flag to me when people state that the mother of one of the babies walked in while Letby was assaulting the baby. Why? Because it seems to me that if there was any hint of a trace of a suggestion that a baby was being assaulted by anyone then this would’ve likely attracted more attention and caused significant controversy at the time.
Maybe if you research Baby E's case you will see that's exactly what happened----Mom walked in on the aftermath of an assault on hr boy. Mom brought her expressed breast milk to a 9 pm scheduled feeding---here is what she saw:

Mother’s testimony;

Mother took her expressed breast milk down to the neonatal unit, room 1;
Mother heard E “screaming more than crying” from the corridor before she entered the room;
LL was the only other adult in room 1;
LL was not near E’s incubator, she was standing between the two incubators busy at a work station;
There was blood on E’s face around his chin, above his lip and partly on his neck;
Mother was there for about 10 minutes and she tried to calm him by placing one hand on his head and the other on his stomach; he wouldn't calm down.
Mother asked LL why he was bleeding;
LL told Mother the NGT was rubbing the back of E’s throat;
LL told Mother to go back to her ward, the registrar was on his way and if there was a problem someone would ring up to the ward.
Mother went back to the ward.
She franticly called her husband and told him what happened.

Her husband tried to comfort her and said they needed to trust the medical staff, they knew what they were doing.


Once you’ve decided Letby is a killer, once you’ve been shown a faulty chart that all but confirms that she was the common factor, of course at that point every interaction featuring Letby during a period of unbearable trauma for these parents is now freighted with incredible significance and malevolence.

The above statement has nothing to do with what was happening with Baby E's parents. They knew nothing about Nurse Lucy, knew of no suspicions or concerns.

However Mom did walk in and hear her child screaming in pain, not just crying like a normal cry. And there was blood coming from his mouth and covering his chin area.

And later on Nurse Letby DENIED that any of that happened. She tried to convince everyone that Mom never came to the nursery at 9 pm, never saw blood on her Baby, never brought milk for a 9 pm feed, and never called her husband at 9:10 pm.

But Mom had phone records corroborating her 9:10 pm call. And Dad testified under oath about their phone conversation and what Mom had told him about their bleeding child. And that Letby had called a doctor already for help.
But if you decouple this circumstantial incident from Letby’s predetermined guilt and view it in that light, the facts do not conclusively show that Letby was assaulting the child

I disagree. The circumstances do show some guilt on Letby's side. She continued to deny that the mom arrived to the nursery at 9 pm. But there was a SCHEDULED 9 pm feed set up for BabyE. Mom did not make that up. It was scheduled and Mom went to express her milk at 8:30 pm and then went to his nursery. Lucy falsified her medical notes by saying that was a cancelled Feed.

Those facts make it highly possible that LL was assaulting the child. The baby was bleeding from his mouth, LL told Mom that a doctor was on his way, and told Mom to leave.

Later, LL denied the child was bleeding, denied the Mom came to the nursery, and there was no call made to a doctor before 9 pm, as LL had told the worried Mom.

It was LL's word against the parents and the parents had corroboration from phone records and from others they had spoken to, like the midwife. They never changed their stories.

LL had no corroboration for her timeline. No corroboration for her claim that the 9 pm feed was cancelled by a senior staff member. The only 'proof' was her hand written note. But none of the other staff had any corresponding or corroborating data to support LL's claim.
but rather this framing is another example of the emotive behaviour of the prosecution in constructing the case against Letby.
Of course there was 'emotive' behaviour. These innocent newborns were brutally assaulted. There were at least 27 incidents. And Lucy was caught in her lies and her falsified observation logs. So Damn Right the prosecution was emotionally charged.

The jury watched these 2 grieving parents tell their devastating story, about what they experienced during that last few hours of their twin boys life. One minute Mom is happily heading to the nursery to feed her twins, and a few hours later, Baby E was dying a sudden, painful death.
 
  • #596
...snipped respectfully...

As far as I’m aware, no expert witnesses have since come to defend the prosecutions original findings. I would say that’s more than instructive given the visibility of this case in the public square.
That's not how appeals work. The State's experts do not need to 'come forward' to defend anything. The jury has spoken so there is no need to come to the public square. Over and Done until and when/if an appeal process begins.
 
  • #597
They don't actually outrank the prosecutions witnesses. The prosecutions witnesses are professors in dedicated specialties which outrank the maccie d's panel. they are also top league guys such as Dr marnerides who is mroe or less the head of his class. have no doubt they are top top guys as well.

Dr Evans was different to the people who medically examined the cases of the babies who went before more or less totally as he was the first to actually be open tot he possibility of deliebrate intent being the cause of the babies declines. he was the first, the original patholigists were not because they had not been informed of that potential so looked for natural causes of decline. had they been properly informed of the docs suspicions the result would have been very different no doubt. in essence it was limitations that defined the initial explorations of what exactly happened had they been open to all possibilites the result would ahve been very different.

ETA.
Even the defences silent expert Dr Michael Hall a "world class expert" himself did not disagree with the prosecution, he just said the health of the babies was overstated. he even has expertise in air embolism believe it or not. We afetr the trial heard nothing from him to actually contest the prosecutions case.

here is his own research and contributions on air embolism, it makes sense he was chosen as a defence expert due to this paper but remember he did not contest that it did indeed seem like air embolism. . is paylocked though.


this is the exact opposite of what actually happened. Dr Hall criticised the prosecution case after the trail on several medical points, including taking issue with how they misused the paper on air emoblisms.

The prosecution witness Dr Bohnin had this to say in response, ‘It is wrong of Professor Hall to publicly discredit a professional colleague in this way. I’m not entirely sure of his motive. Is it a case of sour grapes because he was not called by the defence to take the stand? It certainly appears that way.’ And this is definitely not aging well now.

So I have no idea where you’re getting your information from?
 
  • #598
A letter from Michael hall actually going against the defences panel and suggesting that Dr Lee is indeed not such an expert in the cases of air embolism as seen in the trial.

"Dear Editor,

The verdict following the retrial of Baby K followed soon after the announcement by the Appeal Court judges, on 2nd July 2024, that all applications for leave to appeal the convictions in the original 2023 trial were refused. The trial jury would have been aware of this decision and it is possible it influenced them in reaching their verdict. The judgement raises important issues concerning the interface between the legal and medical professions with regard to evaluation of medical and scientific evidence and the regulation of expert witnesses.

The phrase "skin discolouration" appears 48 times in the judgement; the names "Lee and Tanswell" appear 25 times. A major component of the prosecution case was that the skin discoloration observed in some of the babies who were the alleged victims of Lucy Letby was caused by her injecting air into their veins, leading to "air embolism". The main medical evidence offered by the prosecution in support of this accusation was a paper by Lee and Tanswell which reviewed 53 published cases of neonatal "air" embolism.(1) Certain types of skin discoloration were reported in some of the cases. After reviewing this evidence, the judges concluded that any form of skin discoloration may be a sign of air embolism, provided that it is not the only clinical sign. The judges did not list the other signs but sudden unexpected collapse seems to be one of them.

The basis for the judges’ determination is flawed, in my opinion, for the following reasons:
(i) The Lee and Tanswell paper, despite its misleading title, did not describe features of air embolism – the gas which entered the babies’ circulation was primarily oxygen, not air, and it was pumped at high pressure into the pulmonary circulation, not injected into a peripheral vein.
(ii) I have found only one paper which describes specific skin changes associated with the accidental injection of air, rather than oxygen, into a peripheral vein.(2) The changes were quite different to those described by Lee and Tanswell and to those described in the trial babies. Of particular note, the changes were not transient or "migratory", a pivotal feature of the case alleged by the prosecution and embraced by the judges.

It is likely that an independent experienced medical reviewer would have identified these evidential concerns and would have been able to advise the judges accordingly.

The second issue relates to the suitability of the two prosecution neonatal expert witnesses to interpret for the Court neonatal practice as it was in 2015-2016. Dr Evans had retired from full-time clinical practice in neonatal intensive care in 2009 and Dr Bohin also in 2009, although she continued to practise in Guernsey as a consultant paediatrician with neonates – that is in each case 13 years before the start of the trial. In all, five judges determined that the two expert witnesses were suitably qualified to give evidence and that it was for the jury to assess the validity of their evidence. But, first, on what basis were the judges qualified to make this decision? Second, as no medical expert witnesses were called for the defence, how could the jury assess the validity of the prosecution medical expert evidence, in the absence of any peer comparators offered by the defence?

There is a need to explore how we – the medical and legal professions - can do better in combining our areas of expertise in the identification and evaluation of medical evidence. In the meantime, we need to recognise and respect the boundaries of our different areas of expertise.

Dr Michael Hall
Retired Consultant Neonatologist

1. Lee SK, Tanswell AK. Pulmonary vascular air embolism in the newborn. Arch Dis Child. 1989;64(4 Spec No):507-10.
2. Willis J, Duncan C, Gottschalk S. Paraplegia due to peripheral venous air embolus in a neonate: a case report. Pediatrics. 1981;67(4):472-3.
Competing interests: MH was an expert witness for the defence at the Letby trial who was not called to the stand"

This is Dr Hall explaining that the judges have been fooled by the prosecutions original allegations of air emobilism which are in fact without foundation according to the very paper they misused.
 
  • #599
I don't know where you are getting your information about the Baby E case. Someone has steered you wrong.

Lucy doubling down and calling the parents of Baby E out, accusing them of 'misremembering' or lying, about the death of their Baby Boy was a massive error on Lucy's part.

It was her version of events, her timeline, against the 2 parents, the midwife and the consultant. And they had their own notes and phone records which corroborated their timelines.

Lucy only had her own handwritten notes, which were shown to be falsified after all was said and done.

You had 2 grieving parents, tearing up as they painfully remembered their child's last hours on Earth, and testified under oath. They had clear memories and lots of details surrounding his death. It was very emotional testimony.

Then you had Lucy, with her barrister insisting the parents were not remembering correctly. Claiming the mother did not come to the nursery at 9 pm for her scheduled feed. Mom claims she was there with her expressed breast milk, and walked in on her baby screaming in pain, bleeding from his mouth.

Lucy denied all of that ever happened, Mom must be mistaken, she never came to nursery at 9, there was no bleeding, that never happened-----and yet mom called Dad at 9 pm and cried in anguish and told him what had happened. And her phone records corroborate that call.

All Lucy could do was keep claiming they were mistaken. Lucy denied the baby was bleeding and denied saying she told Mom she had called the doctor for help already.

But both parents gave very convincing testimony. And the facts were on their side. There was a 9 pm feeding scheduled for Babie E and F. And Mom did go to express her milk at 8:30 pm. And phone records did show mom called her husband at 9:10 pm.

So the jury had to decide who seemed more credible.

Lucy had written CANCELLED over the 9 pm feed scheduled in the daily log.

But in court, she was unable to verify who exactly approved that CANCEL. The attending consultant had no record of doing so. And had no record of observing or treating Baby E earlier so would have no reason to Cancel his feeding. He testified he had no memory of doing so and no notes indicating he made that decision.

It appeared to be a falsified claim by Lucy. IMO

Bottom Line---Lucy claimed the baby was not bleeding at 9 pm, and only reported flecks of blood in his diaper, not active bleeding. But just a few hours later he collapsed, unresponsive, and had massive internal hemmorhage , ultimately losing 1/4 of his blood.

So who is the jury going to believe?
Thank you @katydid, what a brilliant and comprehensive sunmary, incredible job. We who followed the trial and will never believe that those parents could ever be mistaken aboit nightmare events etched in their minds or would ever have the need to lie about the worst night of their lives.



<modsnip - make your point without resorting to insults>
 
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  • #600
this is the exact opposite of what actually happened. Dr Hall criticised the prosecution case after the trail on several medical points, including taking issue with how they misused the paper on air emoblisms.

The prosecution witness Dr Bohnin had this to say in response, ‘It is wrong of Professor Hall to publicly discredit a professional colleague in this way. I’m not entirely sure of his motive. Is it a case of sour grapes because he was not called by the defence to take the stand? It certainly appears that way.’ And this is definitely not aging well now.

So I have no idea where you’re getting your information from?
if michael hall disagreed with the prosecutions case that it seemed like air embolism do you think he would have told mr myers? if he did then why didn't mr myers call him? its glaringly obvious mr myers did want the prosecution to have the opportunity to ask him "do you disagree it seems like air embolism?" as soon as he says "yes" its over and done with.

This is Dr Hall explaining that the judges have been fooled by the prosecutions original allegations of air emobilism which are in fact without foundation according to the very paper they misused.
its not if you read it its just him disagreeing about the skin discoluration and that's it literally. the courts have been over that already and came up with their own answer and in muvh more depth than what that letter covers. honestly.
 
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