GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

[marynnu]

But they did have to ring Dr J, who was at home and on call to attend the birth of baby K. They knew this was a mother who they kept at COCH as she was too fragile to transfer, but the Doctor on shift stayed at home and just said ring me when she delivers. He was, as he stated within the 30 minute driving allowance- what if there had been an issue with such an unusual and vulnerable patient in less than the 30 minutes. Where were the qualified staff on shift at the hospital when they had this knowledge about a vulnerable patient?

All consultants go home at night & weekends and are on call. That's how it works.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I will say this for ruthbullock. I admire your persistence and you are not a complete alien to whats happened in the decade since 2015, if you persist in combing through this in an attempt to reveal wrongdoing and subsequent injustice fair play to you. You have my support in that although i do believe your efforts would be better applied to other causes. I still think this is pretty tight tbh and to me the new docs reports didn't change a thing.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I think it feels like there is a disconnect between your expectation and reality. Rotas are staffed to be on call - you can’t sit in a hospital for 72 hours if covering a weekend on call, just in case something happens? You know it is notoriously unpredictable when babies come right? It’s universal that consultant doctors are within thirty mins of base hospital for on calls - human beings cannot do 24/7 - there are constantly vulnerable patients present in hospitals. In the 1950’s doctors had to take cocaine to manage the rotas - care was less safe, less caring, and less complicated! It’s actually also not the case in general that you need consultants for the acute emergency bit - airway breathing circulation to stabilise human physiology is incredibly standardised and there is always someone resident to do this. Consultants are utilised for nuance and expertise, direction of travel, and unusual complexities - their advice is always immediate even if their physical hands aren’t!

“Sitting at home” is not a reflection of how non resident on call periods work in the UK.

I respect all people and try and understand the opinion of others, but when numerous people with real world and professional experience are telling you that this particular interpretation of care and safety is wrong, please consider listening or broadening horizons? All respectfully and JMO.

The majority of people I know are either doctors or NICU nurses through pure coincidence’s in life, so I do have real world and professional opinions, from many more people than post on here and are qualified. That being said I’m not a professional, so never comment on the medical aspects. The duty of care that I have received in my births, both difficult and one with significant problems sets the standard I believe should be the minimum. I know many doctors who do stay at the hospital on call and sleep in accommodation there, their reasoning is they want to be available as soon as possible- but I appreciate other doctors don’t feel that need and are allowed to be up to 30 minutes travel time away. In the case of baby K though, the birth was potentially imminent, she was too fragile to be transferred. Personally I would have made myself available immediately, by staying on site knowing this was an unusual one off with a premature baby that was below the usual acceptance limit and the birth was so imminent they couldn’t make the transfer to anywhere else in case she gave birth mid transfer.
With regards Dr J and actually making the birth, I would like to find something concrete that states that. I can currently find one quote from him (and at this point I need further confirmation via medical notes etc that his recollection is accurate)- the mum recollects him speaking to her half an hour after the birth and saying the baby is stable and they will arrange a transfer, there is no mention that I can see from anyone else in the Thirlwall inquiry stating he was there at the birth, apart from his own testimony. Did this directly impact the birth and subsequent problems, probably not- but I found it interesting that Lady Thirlwall questioned him about being 30 minutes away in this incidence, he justified it as allowable, and the mum can only recollect seeing him 30 minutes after the birth- it may well be nothing and coincidence, or it may well be that Dr J twisted the truth to make himself look good and the Thirlwall inquiry have noticed the discrepancy.
Before you shoot me down, I feel this needs to be a caveat in every post I make- I have no idea at this point whether LL is guilty or innocent and I do want to know, because if I was a parent I would want the whole truth and I wouldn’t want as many questions floating around as there are.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I will say this for ruthbullock. I admire your persistence and you are not a complete alien to whats happened in the decade since 2015, if you persist in combing through this in an attempt to reveal wrongdoing and subsequent injustice fair play to you. You have my support in that although i do believe your efforts would be better applied to other causes. I still think this is pretty tight tbh and to me the new docs reports didn't change a thing.

I have no idea whether she is innocent or guilty as sin, but I would really like to know. I also as you have guessed have an immense amount of frustration that the note taking, record keeping wasn’t IMO clear enough or accurate enough. This frustration probably then boils over into understanding that it was due to lack of staffing and a lack of money that meant these corners had to be cut, and the staff did the best they could in a poor environment. No one can turn back the clock- but I bet in hindsight they wish they had recorded rashes and anything else unusual in notes, had more time to record information, sent more babies to post mortems etc etc- then there would be no doubt in my mind and a handful of people suggesting this isn’t right. I only post to discuss and I genuinely do take on board what others share, be that evidence or someone’s opinion. I also admit sometimes I post because I have read something that makes me doubt my belief and this is the only sane place (most of the time) that I can get an educated response back that may change my mind. There are many posters on here who make me reflect and change my beliefs.

 

[Charlot123]

Speaking of women. There are plenty of mothers, whose children died, under Letby’s care, who are also having their voices stifled….IMO

These parents have the right to get the whole picture. Some may remember being in "dry" labor for hours (sepsis case). Others may have never known that a senior assistant didn't see their baby for 72 hours. Or misdiagnosing necrotizing enterocolitis.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I will say this for ruthbullock. I admire your persistence and you are not a complete alien to whats happened in the decade since 2015, if you persist in combing through this in an attempt to reveal wrongdoing and subsequent injustice fair play to you. You have my support in that although i do believe your efforts would be better applied to other causes. I still think this is pretty tight tbh and to me the new docs reports didn't change a thing.

I have no medical knowledge, it’s my partner who does- and to be honest they have never factored into any comment I have made on here, as it’s not in my knowledge area. My comments have only been made through what I have read on the inquiry that contradicts or provides further information to what was said at trial.
ETA what I do have is a wealth of knowledge in child protection and reporting going back long before 2015 due to my profession at the time, that I have recently left after 30 years.

 

[Anxala]

The majority of people I know are either doctors or NICU nurses through pure coincidence’s in life, so I do have real world and professional opinions, from many more people than post on here and are qualified. That being said I’m not a professional, so never comment on the medical aspects. The duty of care that I have received in my births, both difficult and one with significant problems sets the standard I believe should be the minimum. I know many doctors who do stay at the hospital on call and sleep in accommodation there, their reasoning is they want to be available as soon as possible- but I appreciate other doctors don’t feel that need and are allowed to be up to 30 minutes travel time away. In the case of baby K though, the birth was potentially imminent, she was too fragile to be transferred. Personally I would have made myself available immediately, by staying on site knowing this was an unusual one off with a premature baby that was below the usual acceptance limit and the birth was so imminent they couldn’t make the transfer to anywhere else in case she gave birth mid transfer.
With regards Dr J and actually making the birth, I would like to find something concrete that states that. I can currently find one quote from him (and at this point I need further confirmation via medical notes etc that his recollection is accurate)- the mum recollects him speaking to her half an hour after the birth and saying the baby is stable and they will arrange a transfer, there is no mention that I can see from anyone else in the Thirlwall inquiry stating he was there at the birth, apart from his own testimony. Did this directly impact the birth and subsequent problems, probably not- but I found it interesting that Lady Thirlwall questioned him about being 30 minutes away in this incidence, he justified it as allowable, and the mum can only recollect seeing him 30 minutes after the birth- it may well be nothing and coincidence, or it may well be that Dr J twisted the truth to make himself look good and the Thirlwall inquiry have noticed the discrepancy.
Before you shoot me down, I feel this needs to be a caveat in every post I make- I have no idea at this point whether LL is guilty or innocent and I do want to know, because if I was a parent I would want the whole truth and I wouldn’t want as many questions floating around as there are.

Bizarre.

Almost as if Lucy Letby is a not particularly important component here, as if she somehow, despite a jury finding her guilty of seven murders and the attempted murders of another seven babies, is just a small irrevelant footnote here. While Dr J, not a murderer, is the one you see as needing to justify and explain and account for himself? To you!

For sure. You do you, whatever the hell it is you believe you're doing.

 

[Sweeper2000]

"ETA what I do have is a wealth of knowledge in child protection and reporting going back long before 2015 due to my profession at the time, that I have recently left after 30 years."

Now I see the reasoning. its perfectly acceptable imo to question it, afterall if its not lucy its something else endangering babies.

eta. maybe we who sat through the trial and followed it quite closely for a very lengthy trial had a different perspective as the info unravelled compared to someone mopre recently aquiring the info. can see how that difference would make an impact in forming an opinion.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Post in thread 'UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*' UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*

This post contains links to a number of articles covering the Baby K retrial. Dr. Smith (the doctor who intubated Baby K just after birth) testified that a consultant was present during the time he was intubating Baby K. This was directly after birth. Dr. Jayaram testified that he was present with Dr. Smith and supervised the intubation. I can think of no reason for either of them to lie about this. Dr. Smith was trained to intubate and was the one who carried out the intubation. That was part of his role in the hospital. Dr Jayaram's notes are discussed in this portion of the trial and reflect his presence at the delivery.

 

[Ruthbullock]

"ETA what I do have is a wealth of knowledge in child protection and reporting going back long before 2015 due to my profession at the time, that I have recently left after 30 years."

Now I see the reasoning. its perfectly acceptable imo to question it, afterall if its not lucy its something else endangering babies.

eta. maybe we who sat through the trial and followed it quite closely for a very lengthy trial had a different perspective as the info unravelled compared to someone mopre recently aquiring the info. can see how that difference would make an impact in forming an opinion.

I was part of the whole forum conversation throughout the trial, I haven’t just jumped on the bandwagon, I just have a different outlook.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

I have no medical knowledge, it’s my partner who does- and to be honest they have never factored into any comment I have made on here, as it’s not in my knowledge area. My comments have only been
ETA what I do have is a wealth of knowledge in child protection and reporting going back long before 2015 due to my profession at the time, that I have recently left after 30 years.

Ruth I think this is where I get frustrated at times. You clearly have knowledge about child protection. But historically medical and nursing professionals have gotten cursory training on this. That is a failure within the system. I don't think anyone would disagree. However over and over in your posts you are judging the behavior of professionals based on what you know, rather that on what they know. Both ways - you may know more about child protection and are appalled that they don't know. (That's fair. But it doesn't make their behavior unbelievable.) You know less about medicine and are appalled that they don't do things the way you would have done them, such as sleep over at the hospital for days despite the fact that they they are usually needed to offer advice *which can be done by telephone - and may very well have clinical duties the following day. If they are not needed, they should be sleeping in order to preserve the cognitive function that makes them useful to their patients

 

[Ruthbullock]

Post in thread 'UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*' UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*

This post contains links to a number of articles covering the Baby K retrial. Dr. Smith (the doctor who intubated Baby K just after birth) testified that a consultant was present during the time he was intubating Baby K. This was directly after birth. Dr. Jayaram testified that he was present with Dr. Smith and supervised the intubation. I can think of no reason for either of them to lie about this. Dr. Smith was trained to intubate and was the one who carried out the intubation. That was part of his role in the hospital. Dr Jayaram's notes are discussed in this portion of the trial and reflect his presence at the delivery.

I don’t disagree with what you say - but how long after birth was the intubation, with some coherent evidence, links? I have never implied or suggested he wasn’t present at that moment, I was asking for concrete evidence other than his own say so that he was at the birth.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

I don’t disagree with what you say - but how long after birth was the intubation, with some coherent evidence, links? I have never implied or suggested he wasn’t present at that moment, I was asking for concrete evidence other than his own say so that he was at the birth.

Baby was born at 2:12 am. 3x attempt at intubation and back on the unit by about 2:42. So 20-30 minutes doing the intubation, probably pausing between attempts and hand ventilating in order to keep her oxygenation up. So if Dr J wasn't there right at the moment of birth he was there shortly after. Certainly well within 30 minutes if he was there forbthe intubation. Effort for that generally starts right away.. Even if he had been in the hospital he might not have been there instantly..

Edit - I made a post a couple pages back with the link to the news source describing this time line.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Ruth I think this is where I get frustrated at times. You clearly have knowledge about child protection. But historically medical and nursing professionals have gotten cursory training on this. That is a failure within the system. I don't think anyone would disagree. However over and over in your posts you are judging the behavior of professionals based on what you know, rather that on what they know. Both ways - you may know more about child protection and are appalled that they don't know. (That's fair. But it doesn't make their behavior unbelievable.) You know less about medicine and are appalled that they don't do things the way you would have done them, such as sleep over at the hospital for days despite the fact that they they are usually needed to offer advice *which can be done by telephone - and may very well have clinical duties the following day. If they are not needed, they should be sleeping in order to preserve the cognitive function that makes them useful to their patients

I think you assume all child protection is the same across all areas of the Uk, or maybe all consultants/ doctors reactions and responses are the same to being on call- but I know you have the intelligence to know that’s not actually true, I’m genuinely sorry my posts frustrate you, I just wondered and I am now gradually becoming more aware of the overarching issues of this case, that go much wider than just one persons guilt. I will add we live within 10 minutes drive of our local hospital, but several times I have looked after a friends children so she can stay whilst on call at the hospital, so whilst your area is different and COCH is different, that’s not the same across the board in the UK.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Is my post clear? I realize that I have a very clear picture in my head of what a delivery room for a 25 weeker looks like and maybe I'm not communicating that.

The baby is born and within 30 seconds will be passed over, placed in a plastic wrap to keep from getting cold, given breathing assistance and hooked up to a monitor. It sounds like her heart rate was fine but she needed breathing assistance to keep it finest, so they had to secure her airway before traveling back to the unit. 25 minutes to do so is reasonable. 3 attempts in a baby that small is common. If Dr. Jayaram was present for that, then he was "at the delivery."

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

I think you assume all child protection is the same across all areas of the Uk, or maybe all consultants/ doctors reactions and responses are the same to being on call- but I know you have the intelligence to know that’s not actually true, I’m genuinely sorry my posts frustrate you, I just wondered and I am now gradually becoming more aware of the overarching issues of this case, that go much wider than just one persons guilt. I will add we live within 10 minutes drive of our local hospital, but several times I have looked after a friends children so she can stay whilst on call at the hospital, so whilst your area is different and COCH is different, that’s not the same across the board in the UK.

No, I don't think it's the same everywhere and I appreciate your grace in that. But I do think that your professional and personal experience may not give you as wide a picture of what can be reasonable in neonatal care.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Baby was born at 2:12 am. 3x attempt at intubation and back on the unit by about 2:42. So 20-30 minutes doing the intubation, probably pausing between attempts and hand ventilating in order to keep her oxygenation up. So if Dr J wasn't there right at the moment of birth he was there shortly after. Certainly well within 30 minutes if he was there forbthe intubation. Effort for that generally starts right away.. Even if he had been in the hospital he might not have been there instantly..

Edit - I made a post a couple pages back with the link to the news source describing this time line.

That timeline doesn’t state when Dr J was there- he said he was there at the birth- my question is was he or wasn’t he? I only ask as we want to believe his statements, but are they actually accurate? Is there one testimony, medical record that states he was there at 2.12?

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Goodness, my autocorrect has gone off the rails. Apologies for all the typos.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

That timeline doesn’t state when Dr J was there- he said he was there at the birth- my question is was he or wasn’t he? I only ask as we want to believe his statements, but are they actually accurate? Is there one testimony, medical record that states he was there at 2.12?

So, he states he was present for intubation. We would call that "being at the delivery" or "in the delivery room" or "there for the resuscitation" or "present for the initial stabilization."

The intubation/resuscitation/stabilization as an event would have been ongoing from shortly after 2.12 until they left for the unit sometime before 2.42.

Dr. Smith and Dr. Jayaram testify that he was present for the intubation. The trial refers to his notes describing the features of the intubation, baby's chest rise, etc. So he would have had to see those things to document them.

Thus, I surmise that he was there and that this was accepted by the court.

Have the medical records been released so we the public can scrutinize them? Not as far as I know, nor should they.

This is about as far as our knowledge can go, I think.

 

[Charlot123]

Women with medical & law degrees are being shut down? What on earth do you mean? And do the names of Eirian Powell, Alison Kelly, Sandie Bohin etc. mean nothing to you? There were female consultants involved too, remember


I think God complex fits perfectly for a health care serial killer. But who cares really, we'll probably never know her motives. She might not even know herself.

Here is the difference.

The God's complex would fit many serial killers.

The doctors - and I have several older generations to observe, and the nurses are the same in this regard, I assume - are often driven by "the Savior complex". It is different.

Why judge and destroy with "Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin", which would be the God's complex, when you can get all the veneration of the public after "Lazarus, come forth"?

Now, there is a lot of pride in it, and brilliant surgeons, anesthesiologist or ICU specialists often have it. The better the specialist, the more the savior. You can hear them saying, "nowadays, we could have saved him", or such. And, such specialists are not always easy to deal with. However, they do take their work home.

About the God's complex and serial killers. This group has zero empathy to either their victims or themselves. Homicide may easily end in suicide, too. While people in the medical profession might be difficult, egotistical, complex, and then some, but they do feel empathy for their patients and they feel the same for themselves. Two different types of mentality.

So Lucy working in NICU, I don't see why the heck should she play the God if she could play the Savior? "We wouldn't have managed without you, Lucy. You saved him." Much more satisfying, IMHO.