GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #11

[edgedweller]

But I DO wonder whether she found out, late in the day, after he had disposed of Becky perhaps? And he BEGGED her not to go to the police? But then again I can't imagine why any normal person would want to stay with someone after finding that out, father of your children or not. It also would've been the perfect reason for her to finally be free of him. My thoughts on this case are honestly all over the place (as you can see) and I still don't know whether I think she was involved to an extent - which would explain holes in her story, or not at all, as she claims. I however do not think that she was complicit in the murder or kidnap. I also believe her when she says that NM was controlling and violent. I do not think fundamentally that she is capable of taking the life of a young girl.

I am leaning towards this. I don't think she knew at the time. I have no idea whether it was a sexual come-on gone wrong, a confrontation about the money Nathan owed Becky (remember her friend said she had told Becky to ask him for it), or a failed, ill-thought out, ridiculous kidnap plot that was never going to work, or what, but something happened and NM killed BW. She DID resist, she fought back with all her might but his rage probably kept him going to overpower her. I have no idea whether he really got Becky in the car on his own, or if he called down to SH to help, but I don't think SH plotted to kill or kidnap BW. The cover-up, yes, I think she was in it up to her neck and NM was all she had. He may have been an abusive idiot but it was all she knew and she had not ever lived alone as an adult. Some people cannot conceive of being independent. He probably told her that their daughter and unborn children would be taken away if he was convicted of murder and that she had to help him. I cannot believe she knew nothing.

However, I am happy to be proved wrong by the upcoming evidence. I actually feel sorry for Shauna. She's had no life experience, no independence, and has made some bad choices, mostly due to her unfortunate start in life. I don't think she's a murderer, or even a manslaughter-er, if that makes sense!

 

[sar2them1984]

https://www2.bristol.gov.uk/committee/2007/wa/wa003/1031_6-2.pdf



Trying now to find floor plans for these properties, they must be somewhere, I can find my local authority plans with my eyes shut but struggling with Bristols (and still got kids hanging off me, luckily hubby's home and has taken over the cooking!)

I've searched comprehensively for them online - seems like bristol LA have a slightly different system than other LAs and they don't have everything accessible online. I am waiting for a floor plan off my friend who was involved with the building of CML properties but she's not found them yet

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[edgedweller]

We used to live in a house like this, they're council properties (or ex-council often these days). Ours was built in the late 1940s. It had a downstairs bathroom - it was actually quite handy for potty training little ones as you don't have to hold it in all the way up the stairs

Edited to add, I'm talking about Becky's house and the similar ones on RightMove.

 

[Hexenb]

"They went out for drinks". Errrr, she was FOURTEEN.

Perhaps I'm just showing my age here but they start very young these days.

She was probably one of these 14 year olds that looked 24 as she had a horrible life she was probably a bit more mature and street wise than your average 14 year old

 

[jessie]

Can I take you back to SH's arrest for kidnapping please?

I have this statement in court from the DC who arrested her :

A detective told of the moment Shauna Hoare was arrested on suspicion of kidnapping Becky. The officer said: “I noticed Hoare had tears forming in her eyes. She did not cry openly but she was clearly upset.”
Detective describes arresting Matthews on same charge. He answered “No comment” to all questions about Becky

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-murder-trial-live-6631230


Doesn't anyone else think her reaction to this strange, as if she had been sort of anticipating this (but hoping it wouldn't happen of course).

OMOO but I would have expected a sudden arrest for kidnapping her partner's stepsister if she was completely in ignorance to absolutely shock her, really throw her off balance, make more of an impact.

I was really surprised when I first heard the DC's statement in court, and it has continued to influence my judgement I believe.

eta - I cannot remember if they had been in custody and allowed out on bail or what at this time, and I'm using a failing pc so backtracking is very difficult,. Had they had time together to talk by then or what?

 

[Tortoise]

Think of this.

NM is planning to kidnap BW. It all goes to plan and she is alive in the boot of the car.

He tells SH he is just going out on an errand, drives off with BW and takes her to the woods, leaving her there.

He returns to the house of AG/DG and AG and SH ask him where BW is. She was in when AG left for her hospital appointment, and when they arrived, her music was playing, and she's disappeared at the same time that he went out.

Becky somehow manages to return later, and says she was kidnapped from her room and it is timed by her last phone message at the same time that NM/SH arrived. There has been no break in.

Is it going to be such a mystery who did it? No suitcase or DNA hair etc in the car boot?

Is SH going to accept that Becky was kidnapped from right under her nose and provide NM with an alibi?

She would have to know he'd done it, he wouldn't be able to hide it from her.

So why wouldn't he tell her he is planning it beforehand, so she can lie for him and to avoid being suspected by her and everyone else after?

So maybe there was a different plan, all 3 of them would leave the house with Becky alive in the boot. NM would drop SH and child off at home and say he is going on an errand. Later on it would still pan out exactly the same, everyone would know they had been there that morning when Becky disappeared. He would need SH in on it with him to give a cover story/alibi.

I can't think of a way he could do this without SH's cooperation.

You all know I don't believe he did and they were in it together from start to finish, but I'm just trying to play devils advocate with it.

 

[Hexenb]

Not a huge deal in the scheme of things but I find it odd that SH was given some of BW clothes. I used to get hand me downs from older cousins etc. but I've never got clothes from people that were younger than me.

I feel like SH is saying this to show what a hard life she had and how "spoilt" BW was.

I think there is a reason for this time will tell

 

[Tortoise]

Can I take you back to SH's arrest for kidnapping please?

I have this statement in court from the DC who arrested her :

A detective told of the moment Shauna Hoare was arrested on suspicion of kidnapping Becky. The officer said: “I noticed Hoare had tears forming in her eyes. She did not cry openly but she was clearly upset.”
Detective describes arresting Matthews on same charge. He answered “No comment” to all questions about Becky


Doesn't anyone else think her reaction to this strange, as if she had been sort of anticipating this (but hoping it wouldn't happen of course).

OMOO but I would have expected a sudden arrest for kidnapping her partner's stepsister if she was completely in ignorance to absolutely shock her, really throw her off balance, make more of an impact.

I was really surprised when I first heard the DC's statement in court, and it has continued to influence my judgement I believe.

eta - I cannot remember if they had been in custody and allowed out on bail or what at this time, and I'm using a failing pc so backtracking is very difficult,. Had they had time together to talk by then or what?

They had been interviewed as voluntary witnesses on the Thursday and the Friday and they were arrested on the Saturday at her Mum's house.

 

[sar2them1984]

Deleted

 

[Alyce]

Can I take you back to SH's arrest for kidnapping please?

I have this statement in court from the DC who arrested her :

A detective told of the moment Shauna Hoare was arrested on suspicion of kidnapping Becky. The officer said: “I noticed Hoare had tears forming in her eyes. She did not cry openly but she was clearly upset.”
Detective describes arresting Matthews on same charge. He answered “No comment” to all questions about Becky

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-murder-trial-live-6631230


Doesn't anyone else think her reaction to this strange, as if she had been sort of anticipating this (but hoping it wouldn't happen of course).

OMOO but I would have expected a sudden arrest for kidnapping her partner's stepsister if she was completely in ignorance to absolutely shock her, really throw her off balance, make more of an impact.

I was really surprised when I first heard the DC's statement in court, and it has continued to influence my judgement I believe.

eta - I cannot remember if they had been in custody and allowed out on bail or what at this time, and I'm using a failing pc so backtracking is very difficult,. Had they had time together to talk by then or what?

I remember thinking it was rather odd - would have expected more shock if totally innocent and no idea what was going on.
They were arrested on Sat Feb 28, at SHs mother's house ( where they had stayed overnight on the Friday ).
So they had had over a week together , since the 19th, to discuss stories. They had been into the police station twice during the week of Feb 23 - 27 to give statements, but had not been detained at all.

 

[Clio]

Can I take you back to SH's arrest for kidnapping please?

I have this statement in court from the DC who arrested her :

A detective told of the moment Shauna Hoare was arrested on suspicion of kidnapping Becky. The officer said: “I noticed Hoare had tears forming in her eyes. She did not cry openly but she was clearly upset.”
Detective describes arresting Matthews on same charge. He answered “No comment” to all questions about Becky

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-murder-trial-live-6631230


Doesn't anyone else think her reaction to this strange, as if she had been sort of anticipating this (but hoping it wouldn't happen of course).

OMOO but I would have expected a sudden arrest for kidnapping her partner's stepsister if she was completely in ignorance to absolutely shock her, really throw her off balance, make more of an impact.

I was really surprised when I first heard the DC's statement in court, and it has continued to influence my judgement I believe.

eta - I cannot remember if they had been in custody and allowed out on bail or what at this time, and I'm using a failing pc so backtracking is very difficult,. Had they had time together to talk by then or what?

These arrests were on Saturday 28th February. They had not been in custody before this so they would have had over a week together to talk.

ETA Snap Alyce & Tortoise

 

[Alyce]

I can't open link for some reason...

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Nor can I

 

[Clio]

And that's when Shauna really let off at Nathan, and the neighbour heard the rowing and slamming doors

If I recall correctly*, you have your timings wrong

… the prosecutor put it to NM yesterday that it was on the night of the murder that the neighbour heard them. I think the prosecutor is assuming, as do I, that the neighbour was a day out

NM/SH's neighbour, SW, probably did hear noises but not necessarily on those dates. SH and NM were at Crown Hill on 19th Feb between 11am and 2pm so that part cannot be correct.

Question is, is SW more sure that the noises were on consecutive days or is she more sure she can tie a particular noise to a definite date?

The argument could have been on the 18th – a possible trigger for the assault on Becky the next day or it could have been on the 19th as a result of the aftermath of Becky’s death.

The moving of heavy objects could have been on the 20th when NM was alone in CML or it could have been on the 21st when both NM and SH were at CML.

I don’t think the prosecution is assuming SW is a day out - it is in his interest to suggest she is.

Sarah Webb told the court that in February she lived next door to Matthews and Hoare in Cotton Mill Lane….…
Mrs Webb said the walls of her terraced home were quite thin, and recounted two incidents coming from next door which she believed she heard on February 18 and 19.
She said: "The first thing was shouting and screaming between Shauna and Nathan……
"It was early evening, between 6pm to 7pm maybe. I was putting my little one to bed. It went on no more than half an hour……
Both voices were shouting and there was nothing else that day.

Mrs Webb said on the next occasion, the next day, she heard lots of running up and down stairs as well as "banging, scraping and door banging.
She said she heard what seemed like a suitcase being rolled across a wooden floor, and the noises occurred between 11am and 2pm.
She said it also seemed like a bed was being shifted across the floor, or something heavy.
Mrs Webb told the jury: "It seemed like a large object. It seemed very heavy. I assume it might have been a bed. It seemed like wheels rolling on the floor.
"It was very short and lasted less than a minute."
Mrs Webb was sure of when she heard the sounds because she had checked her i-phone and Facebook messages, she said.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-27947152-detail/story.html#ixzz3q4KEKIlX

 

[TupeloMz]

Suppose this happened: NM and SH went there so NM could confront BW about the money he owed her.maybe to convince her to shut her mouth about it. Told SH to take the child outside so she wouldn't hear and get upset. Things went horribly wrong and he killed her. Then of course he has to tell SH and the cover up begins. Moo.

 

[Clio]

I'm also puzzled by the lack of mention of their child - if you were only reading the news reports you'd hardly know they had one. I wonder if there's been some kind of agreement that they'd mention her as little as possible to protect her? Or is it the journalists who are omitting any reference to her?

It makes no sense that she wouldn't mention the child being with her when she went outside, as it would only have helped her.

There are restrictions on what can be reported from court - mention of minors may be one of these

 

[sar2them1984]

So these are taken from the 2007 planning appl for the scheme. I'm not sure which house they lived in but these are for 2 bed houses. I think it's these??

http://planningonline.bristol.gov.u..._F-PROPOSED_2B4P_HOUSE_FLOOR_PLANS-267130.pdf

http://planningonline.bristol.gov.u...OR_PLANS_ADJACENT_TO_HARWOOD_HOUSE-267129.pdf

Note both have downstairs loo.

Hmm the placement of the stairs and the view from the bathroom seems off

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[delal]

Minors can't be identified but have never heard of their being mentioned being banned too.

I think the prosecution have some evidence or are planning a case based around a threesome/sexual fantasy and had the info about SH and the "lesbian affair" which is why her defence barrister had to cover that.

 

[skibaboo]

My plan to follow today got busted, had to go out. Ive just managed to catch up. Doesn't look like we learned anything new today though. Thanks to everyone for posting updates and tweets! Very much appreciated!

 

[sar2them1984]

Deleted

 

[Jinkasaurus]

Suppose this happened: NM and SH went there so NM could confront BW about the money he owed her.maybe to convince her to shut her mouth about it. Told SH to take the child outside so she wouldn't hear and get upset. Things went horribly wrong and he killed her. Then of course he has to tell SH and the cover up begins. Moo.

This would be plausible for me. But the history of interest in teen girls (also the age SH was when he began dating her), the violent , and the willingness to go through with a dismemberment all make me think that there was more at play here, in terms of NM internal motivations. It seems that the age range of young teen (13-16) is where he is mentally fixated at. You add violent to that, and that is the path of many murderers when you examine their history - the stimulation from wears off and they need to make the fantasy real, so they escalate to actual violence.

I am still fuzzy on SH's role. Given how she doesn't seem to have any strong emotional response to the horror of what he did in her interviews, as well as so many other little details that just do not make any sense, that leads me to think they were both in on it from the beginning.