GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #13

[jessie]

I hope NM and SH go down for a long time. The others were stupid rather than bad people, I think. I would be happy for them to get relatively short sentences as I think they are very unlikely to ever do this again!


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I hope so too, no less than they deserve.

I'm not convinced DD is guilty so I couldn't convict him

JI seems imo to have been used. Sounded to me as if he had an agreeable nature and again I'm not convinced he really thought he was getting £5K. He was drunk, his mate in the pub had had a few drinks, and I am inclined to believe his testimony.

KD & JP - well they've pleaded guilty anyway, and I think they were hoping to get £10K for stashing something dodgy. I doubt they were about to share that money with anybody else either. AOMO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I'd like the maximum possible sentence for NM, for what he did afterwards as much as anything, the man's unhinged...

I'm on the fence with SH, not convinced beyond reasonable doubt that she was there when Becky was killed. I believe she was complicit in either kidnapping Becky, or disposing of her, or most likely both. She needs putting away for a long time too, but I just can't put a number on it.

In fact I'm on the fence with the others, too. I don't think they knew what they were storing was Becky, not in a million years, so that leaves "being guilty of helping out a mate with something they knew was dodgy and not calling police asap". They MUST have asked him what it was, and he MUST have said stolen goods or drugs, so either way they've abetted a criminal. Sentences? Over 5 years would be harsh. 2 years? Greed has ruined everything for them.

But ultimately I (and we) have got to trust the jury on this - they know a huge amount more than we do. They've seen every movement, they've heard the intonation/emotion in any statements made, they are party to lots more information than we are. At some point it'll all come out in the wash* and we'll understand some bits better. Hope so anyway!

As long as NM gets a sentence as long as one of Shauna's cigs (!) I'll be happy. What a giant mess they've created, countless lives wrecked and relationships irreparably damaged. And then, of course, there's the loss of Becky

It's been a crazy ride and I've loved sharing it with you all :loveyou: (will try not to add kisses this time...)


*not literally, Beesknees, I mean we will get to hear about many of the parts that we've missed!

 

[Beesknees]

The compilation from today's session in court is now ready to view.


lolol Thank you all that explained what 'melt butter in one's mouth' means. I had never heard that expression at all. So, when I saw the pros saying it related to SH I began to rewind the evidence known as I thought it was related to some piece of evidence of something she was eating (during the 'works' at her house or whatever it was). lolol my mind was trying so hard to make some sense from it thinking like there must be something that 'wich' said like 'it was so cold that day that I was eating and the butter didn't even melt in my mouth'. Honestly this is like a joke but it really happened! And I was gobsmacked how could be possible having copied and pasted and edited all this along and the evidence of the 'bread and butter's day' didn't pass my eyes :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:


I understood now the meaning of it. It is a funny saying.

 

[cottonweaver]

If you're still here cottonweaver :thinking:

This is Joint Enterprise simplified - I hope it explains better than I did.

What is Joint Enterprise?

Criminal law generally only holds offenders liable for their own actions but, under the doctrine of joint enterprise, a person may be found guilty for another person's crime.

Simple association or accidental presence during a crime is insufficient for a charge under joint enterprise. A suspect must knowingly assist or encourage the crime and agree to act together with the primary offender for a common purpose. For example, the driver of a getaway vehicle can be charged with robbery under joint enterprise even if an accomplice actually perpetrated the crime.

Additionally, no action for joint enterprise murder is sustainable unless the prosecution also secures a guilty verdict for the primary offender.


http://www.kaimtodner.com/law/what_is_joint_enterprise/

Thanks very much Jessie,
I am usually 3 pages behind due to it being unreliable in loading the pages!

This is heartening, as is YARach's post I just read - thought SH would end up with only pervert & prevent !
As for DD, as thought it is "assist an offender with a serious crime" as Pros says so I think he is at real risk of guilty on that.
But let's see what his Defence closes on that ?

 

[Jinkasaurus]

That was great to hear the prosecutor pull the threads together. I wish I had bookmarked it - there was one comment he made about a reason SH was involved that I hadn't thought of. I will go back and see if I can find it.

His argument matches what I've generally thought - that there is a sexual fantasy element at play in this crime, and that it was shared between NM and SH.

 

[Tortoise]

That was great to hear the prosecutor pull the threads together. I wish I had bookmarked it - there was one comment he made about a reason SH was involved that I hadn't thought of. I will go back and see if I can find it.

His argument matches what I've generally thought - that there is a sexual fantasy element at play in this crime, and that it was shared between NM and SH.

was it to do with SH coming back with NM on the Friday, thinking he had been out working with a mate and finding the loo out of order/door locked, whereas it had been fine when they left that morning?

 

[Jinkasaurus]

was it to do with SH coming back with NM on the Friday, thinking he had been out working with a mate and finding the loo out of order/door locked, whereas it had been fine when they left that morning?

No, but that did jump out at me- I think there was only one tweet about that? Maybe someone can find it so we can discuss it further.

 

[Tortoise]

agree Jinkasaurus re the sexual motive.

I started off thinking at the beginning of the trial that the prosecution was maybe trying to fit a sexual motive because they had no other explanation for the kidnap.

Then when I saw NM's interview I believed him vis-a-vis the plan to teach Becky a lesson.

Then as the trial went on I thought NM's whole story doesn't make sense - he is still lying about everything even though he appears to be confessing to everything.

I ended up convinced that this was a plan to carry out a sexual assault on Becky that went wrong. And that SH was involved in that plan, because she hasn't given good enough explanations in my eyes for sending those texts, and she comes across as needing NM so much. She didn't have that closeness with anyone else in her life, didn't know how to have a normal relationship, she was joined to him to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. A warped existence.

I know I haven't done my explanation justice but I will come back to it some other time.

 

[Jinkasaurus]

Here are the tweets that jumped out at me the most:

Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 55 secs56 seconds ago
"The contempt they had for her extends to the grotesque way her body was treated after her death"

- I thought this was an excellent point to make to the jury


Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 26 secs27 seconds ago
" She was involved in this from the start to the finish"

Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 33 secs34 seconds ago
Wm: If she wasn't and that wasn't the plan would NM be so confident that he could regulate her behaviour?

Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 52 secs52 seconds ago
WM:Could he be confident that she wouldn't discover or report him?

- This is something I hadn't thought of- but makes perfect sense. If SH was not involved, how could NM be sure she wouldn't mess up his plan somehow? I am glad the prosecutor brought that up.

 

[Beesknees]

My thoughts about the charges are -


Nathan Matthews

• Conspiracy to kidnap - GUILTY
• Murder - GUILTY
• Perverting the course of justice - GUILTY
• Preventing the lawful burial of Becky Watts - GUILTY
• Possessing a prohibited weapon, namely two stun guns - GUILTY


Shauna Hoare

• Conspiracy to kidnap - GUILTY
• Murder - NOT GUILTY
• Perverting the course of justice - GUILTY
• Preventing the lawful burial of Becky Watts - GUILTY
• Possessing a prohibited weapon, namely two stun guns - GUILTY

I do believe she killed Becky with him, but I think the jury will not be able to convict, so, in her case in my opinion justice won't be served unfortunately


James Ireland

• Assisting an offender - GUILTY


Donavan Demetrius

• Assisting an offender - GUILTY


I would find DD not guilty but I think the jury will put some burden on him. Then it will be up to the judge to give him much less time than the others I hope


Jaydene Parker

• Assisting an offender - GUILTY


Karl Demetrius

• Assisting an offender - GUILTY



And of course I believe none of them including KD knew the seriousness and the horror of what they were storing in that shed, but all of them inferred it had to be something related to a criminal action. And, being their money always short it was a temptation for them. A big lesson of life either for them to learn or for all the ones who hear about the implications they have to face.

 

[Tortoise]

Here are the tweets that jumped out at me the most:

Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 55 secs56 seconds ago
"The contempt they had for her extends to the grotesque way her body was treated after her death"

- I thought this was an excellent point to make to the jury


Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 26 secs27 seconds ago
" She was involved in this from the start to the finish"

Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 33 secs34 seconds ago
Wm: If she wasn't and that wasn't the plan would NM be so confident that he could regulate her behaviour?

Siobhan Robbins Verified account  ‏@SiobhanRobbins · 52 secs52 seconds ago
WM:Could he be confident that she wouldn't discover or report him?

- This is something I hadn't thought of- but makes perfect sense. If SH was not involved, how could NM be sure she wouldn't mess up his plan somehow? I am glad the prosecutor brought that up.

Agreed, particularly in the light of his paranoia.

he is paranoid and was meticulous not to get caught, leaving only two clues for police after the whole act of murdering and dismembering. three if you include the hairs in his boot. he would not have been sure at all of SH's cooperation. He would have sent her away somewhere for a week or taken Becky somewhere else after the killing.

 

[cottonweaver]

agree Jinkasaurus re the sexual motive.

I started off thinking at the beginning of the trial that the prosecution was maybe trying to fit a sexual motive because they had no other explanation for the kidnap.

Then when I saw NM's interview I believed him vis-a-vis the plan to teach Becky a lesson.

Then as the trial went on I thought NM's whole story doesn't make sense - he is still lying about everything even though he appears to be confessing to everything.

I ended up convinced that this was a plan to carry out a sexual assault on Becky that went wrong. And that SH was involved in that plan, because she hasn't given good enough explanations in my eyes for sending those texts, and she comes across as needing NM so much. She didn't have that closeness with anyone else in her life, didn't know how to have a normal relationship, she was joined to him to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. A warped existence.

I know I haven't done my explanation justice but I will come back to it some other time.

You know I have always thought that since I started following last week ( ) and all the murkier stuff will come out later

but I am still wondering why the extra charges against her have been dropped. Clio said they have but i don't know the reason - the "indecent images of a child" ones.

Anyone the wiser on this?

 

[Tortoise]

Interesting Beesknees.

The fact that you do believe SH killed Becky with NM is sufficient to convict, with a majority on the jury thinking like minded.

 

[Tortoise]

You know I have always thought that since I started following last week ( ) and all the murkier stuff will come out later

but I am still wondering why the extra charges against her have been dropped. Clio said they have but i don't know the reason - the "indecent images of a child" ones.

Anyone the wiser on this?

I haven't heard they've been dropped.

They aren't part of this trial though. Quite often you do hear in a news report that certain charges are left to lie on the file. I've never seen an explanation why though.

 

[Beesknees]

Interesting Beesknees.

The fact that you do believe SH killed Becky with NM is sufficient to convict, with a majority on the jury thinking like minded.

Majority? Isn't it by unanimity in the UK?
You mean that if they are 11 in the jury it is enough 6 of them against 5 for example?

 

[cottonweaver]

I'm interested to know whether the posters here who have followed this case for many months, are disappointed by the Prosecutions cross exams at all /disappointed that the Pros case closed today?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I'm interested to know whether the posters here who have followed this case for many months, are disappointed by the Prosecutions cross exams at all /disappointed that the Pros case closed today?

It has felt sketchy and disjointed in parts, I'd love to hear from someone who was actually in court or knows someone who was.

(Retribution - where are you?!?!?)

The end of today was totally gripping though, the atmosphere was electric - even on my comfy sofa - so I can only imagine what it would be like being in the midst of it. Really pleased with what the Pros said, for the most part he nailed it!

 

[Gigi-G]

I'm interested to know whether the posters here who have followed this case for many months, are disappointed by the Prosecutions cross exams at all /disappointed that the Pros case closed today?

I'm not dissapointed in Mr Mousley's delivery of the case today. I think in all fairness he has given the Jury an excellent base to find their answers.
However, I do find the entire case lack lustre. As in so many prominent aspects of evidence failed to be addressed. Such as pushing NM & SH for more disclosure on how and why they took BW's life. Where and when. Did he/they partake in the grisly aspects. And what they were hoping to achieve?
If it were me as the Prosecution, I would of ripped them both to shreds. Not let NM hide his face and sob. I'd demand answers. Same with SH. I would do my utmost to melt that cold, calculating, icicle. She would be on fire. And tripping herself up.
Wonder what tomorrow brings. AMOO

 

[Beesknees]

I'm interested to know whether the posters here who have followed this case for many months, are disappointed by the Prosecutions cross exams at all /disappointed that the Pros case closed today?

Yes disapponted no doubt. Even having in mind (as someone explained me here) that in the UK the prosecutors are much more respectful and soft than in the US, I expected a deeper cross examination and much more points/evidence/discrepancies pointed. Even today when closing arguments he could have been much more embracing. Mainly pointing each and every time SH called all of us stupid trying to make us believe the impossible. Anyway, let's see what the veredict brings.

Also about the real time of work in court I find it so little time and I wonder why. All of them (judges, prosecutors, barristers, etc) are high regarded classes, very well paid and I know they have loads of work that is not under our eyes. But the times of court are very short and full of breaks...

Never be offended when I - a foreigner - might be critical about things in the UK or the US or wherever. It is these countries we are discussing about.

I am deeply critical of my country when I see things are not right and unfortunately I have many things here to criticise.

This has nothing to do with any prejudice because I am from another country. It is what I think and we all have in all countries and peoples the great and the bad. It is just as it is.

 

[sar2them1984]

I'm interested to know whether the posters here who have followed this case for many months, are disappointed by the Prosecutions cross exams at all /disappointed that the Pros case closed today?

I thought that the summing up today was splendid and bought to the forefront many inConsistencies with the testimonies of key players and hopefully it's these inconsistencies and "unfortunate coincidences" which the Jury remembers.

However overall I am disappointed with the tactics of the Prosecution. I've been quite open that I think that the prosecution failed to use witnesses and evidence to their fullest potential in order to drive home the inaccuracies and sheer implausibleness (is that even a word) of some of the information provided by key players. I believe they could have used many more witnesses to show NM/SH guilt and lies - for instance they could of used AG, if not in person then a written statement giving info on times of that day/demeanour of SH/NM, statements or testimonies from KD/JP - yes they have pleaded guilty but it would give huge insight into whether JI was telling the whole truth and whether SH was around etc. Also the case - I'm suprised they didn't highlight or show how difficult it would have been to get someone of Beckys size into the case -I've seen it done on other trials.

Similarly I felt that particularly with SH, she was asked very closed questions. Some may say that was the pros plan and the least said the better but I think if certain points had been pressed further then a much more clearer picture would have been gained...

Saying that, I know from social media that Beckys family are happy with the prosecution, however I can't help feeling that their own beliefs that SH is guilty is clouding their objectivity on just how much presented evidence can prove beyond reasonable doubt that SH is guilty...I have a feeling they are going to be left feeling very wronged come verdict day..

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