GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #13

[Clio]

anyone else going to put their cards on the table?

I'm waiting for the Judge's instructions

 

[Alyce]

anyone else going to put their cards on the table?

My predictions are exactly the same as yours Tortoise.

I cannot believe that the Jury will buy SHs ridiculous testimony and will therefore return guilty verdicts for her.

NM I think it was always going to be guilty - of murder. His story is equally implausible and his actions afterwards sealed his fate, imo, and showed that this was no accidental killing that could be covered by a manslaughter verdict.

JI told so many different stories, I think that did for him, and showed he knew far more than he tried to pretend. I don't mean he knew he was helping to hide Becky's body, but he definately knew he was assisting an offender and that's all that is needed to find him guilty. I also agree, he may get some reduction in sentence, due to his mental health.

DD - again, I agree with you. I see a not guilty verdict here. I feel that he may have known, as time went by, that whatever KD was up to, it was not legit. But I dont see any evidence of his involvement in any way and I think the only verdict the Jury can give is not guilty.

Will be interesting to see what sentences KD and JP get, as compared to JIs.

 

[YidArmyRach]

My predictions are exactly the same as yours Tortoise.

I cannot believe that the Jury will buy SHs ridiculous testimony and will therefore return guilty verdicts for her.

NM I think it was always going to be guilty - of murder. His story is equally implausible and his actions afterwards sealed his fate, imo, and showed that this was no accidental killing that could be covered by a manslaughter verdict.

JI told so many different stories, I think that did for him, and showed he knew far more than he tried to pretend. I don't mean he knew he was helping to hide Becky's body, but he definately knew he was assisting an offender and that's all that is needed to find him guilty. I also agree, he may get some reduction in sentence, due to his mental health.

DD - again, I agree with you. I see a not guilty verdict here. I feel that he may have known, as time went by, that whatever KD was up to, it was not legit. But I dont see any evidence of his involvement in any way and I think the only verdict the Jury can give is not guilty.

Will be interesting to see what sentences KD and JP get, as compared to JIs.

Agree with this too.

The only part I am not 100% convinced will happen is SH being found guilty of murder. Not because I don't believe she was involved, but because if I was on the jury, I wouldn't have believed anything she said, but equally the lack of any physical evidence at all, and NM refusing to implicate her, would mean that I'd be listening to all opinions before making my decision, as I'd hate to get it wrong. Its such a huge responsibility to be jailing someone possibly for the rest of their life for murder when the only 'evidence' against them is a load of b******* explanations.

I believe she was, at the very least, aware of everything that had happened (from Becky's death to the disposal of her body) - but I don't think the prosecution has done enough (yet) to prove it.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm waiting for the Judge's instructions

judge's instructions are like a flow chart. on the murder charge it will be wtte - Are you sure there was intent to cause death or very serious harm/injury? Yes, convict on murder - No, are you sure there was intent to cause serious harm which led to death etc.. Yes, convict on manslaughter - No, find not guilty. repeat for each defendant.

I may have got some of the words wrong to define murder / manslaughter here - would need to look it up.

 

[Tortoise]

Agree with this too.

The only part I am not 100% convinced will happen is SH being found guilty of murder. Not because I don't believe she was involved, but because if I was on the jury, I wouldn't have believed anything she said, but equally the lack of any physical evidence at all, and NM refusing to implicate her, would mean that I'd be listening to all opinions before making my decision, as I'd hate to get it wrong. Its such a huge responsibility to be jailing someone possibly for the rest of their life for murder when the only 'evidence' against them is a load of b******* explanations.

I believe she was, at the very least, aware of everything that had happened (from Becky's death to the disposal of her body) - but I don't think the prosecution has done enough (yet) to prove it.

It is and I have been in this position so I know the massive stress involved in getting it right, it cannot be underestimated.

My opinion may be different if I had sat in court and seen everything first hand. I am only going on what we have heard in the media to base my opinion, and I make no claim that this is how I would be thinking if I was on the jury.

 

[Clio]

judge's instructions are like a flow chart. on the murder charge it will be wtte - Are you sure there was intent to cause death or very serious harm/injury? Yes, convict on murder - No, are you sure there was intent to cause serious harm which led to death etc.. Yes, convict on manslaughter - No, find not guilty. repeat for each defendant.

I may have got some of the words wrong to define murder / manslaughter here - would need to look it up.

I have done jury service too, albeit not for a murder case (called & served 6 times). So I am a little familiar with judges instructions. This is a complex case and I am also interested to know if the concept of joint enterprise will be introduced.

 

[Alyce]

It is and I have been in this position so I know the massive stress involved in getting it right, it cannot be underestimated.

My opinion may be different if I had sat in court and seen everything first hand. I am only going on what we have heard in the media to base my opinion, and I make no claim that this is how I would be thinking if I was on the jury.

Seconded

 

[ColourPurple]

anyone else going to put their cards on the table?

At his point in time if I were on the jury I'd go for

NM- guilty of everything except conspiracy to Kidnap.
SH- guilty of perverting the course of justice and preventing lawful burial, not guilty of the others
DD- not guilty
JI - Hmmn split on him, at a push guilty

But I know I've been overly pessimistic about the chances of getting a conviction in previous trials , that have then ended with guilty verdicts, so I think I'm possibly over cautious and wouldn't be surprised if SH was found guilty of all charges. I'd be more surprised if she was found completely innocent.

With the conspiracy to kidnap , I'm assuming it's only in relation to Becky and that with the charge being "conspiracy to kidnap" rather than "kidnap" they will either both be convicted or both cleared as neither could conspire unless there's another person involved... so how will they read the verdicts out because as soon as we hear the verdict for one of them on that charge we'll know that the verdict for the other one is the same, or will the jury be asked their verdict on that one as a joint charge?

 

[ColourPurple]

I have done jury service too, albeit not for a murder case (called & served 6 times). So I am a little familiar with judges instructions. This is a complex case and I am also interested to know if the concept of joint enterprise will be introduced.

Would they not have had to mention joint enterprise at the start when they listed the charges?

 

[ColourPurple]

I think the jury will decide SH's guilt in the following manner - was jointly involved in the plan to kidnap in a sexually motivated attack. the behaviour of encouraging NM seen and being subservient to him in threesomes and other ways too. kidnap because they wouldn't risk AG coming back early. stun gun/s involved. was it manslaughter? - no NM did not act alone in the killing because he wasn't physically healthy enough to - BW was putting up a prolonged struggle and was most likely screaming which neighbours and their daughter might hear - could have been either of them that suffocated BW. NM hasn't given a clear account of keeping his hand over BW's mouth and nose which left bruising. They weren't sure she was dead. NM stabbed her in the neck leaving blood on doorframe and duvet cover and her clothing, as well as his own beanie hat.

MOO

They've both mentioned music being on and I saw a headline yesterday about a different case that made me stop and think. Here's the headline:

Man 'who turned up loud music to cover the sound of him beating his lover' is accused of killing her, stuffing her body into a suitcase and dumping it in a canal
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-33...ing-stuffing-body-suitcase-dumping-canal.html

 

[Clio]

Would they not have had to mention joint enterprise at the start when they listed the charges?

Don't think so but I don't know for sure. If it's applicable, I'd expect it to be in the judges instructions.

 

[Tortoise]

At his point in time if I were on the jury I'd go for

NM- guilty of everything except conspiracy to Kidnap.
SH- guilty of perverting the course of justice and preventing lawful burial, not guilty of the others
DD- not guilty
JI - Hmmn split on him, at a push guilty

But I know I've been overly pessimistic about the chances of getting a conviction in previous trials , that have then ended with guilty verdicts, so I think I'm possibly over cautious and wouldn't be surprised if SH was found guilty of all charges. I'd be more surprised if she was found completely innocent.

With the conspiracy to kidnap , I'm assuming it's only in relation to Becky and that with the charge being "conspiracy to kidnap" rather than "kidnap" they will either both be convicted or both cleared as neither could conspire unless there's another person involved... so how will they read the verdicts out because as soon as we hear the verdict for one of them on that charge we'll know that the verdict for the other one is the same, or will the jury be asked their verdict on that one as a joint charge?

interesting.

they will start with NM because he is listed first on the charge sheet. and go through each charge. so yes, we will find out about the conspiracy verdict for SH too when the jury reads out the verdict on that.

 

[jessie]

interesting.

they will start with NM because he is listed first on the charge sheet. and go through each charge. so yes, we will find out about the conspiracy verdict for SH too when the jury reads out the verdict on that.

The jury have to make decisions on all four at the same time then?

They cannot make a decision on say, NM then retire again to consider SH, and so on?

It is going to take long time then I imagine - poor Jury.

Will they be sent home or kept in an hotel?

eta - Only 11 of them as well.

 

[ColourPurple]

Found this old article earlier and thought some of the comment smight be interesting to look back on. It's at the tie Becky's body was found and includes friends and neighbours thoughts on those arrested.

Of NM and SH

Police were today granted an extra 24 hours to quiz two suspects after Becky's body was found cut up in a house a mile from her home.
Nathan is believed to be the son of Anjie Galsworthy, 49, who is married to Becky's dad Darren, 51.
A friend of the couple said: "I just can't believe it. I feel like I'm in an episode of EastEnders.
"I haven't spoken to them for a few months but we used to be really close."They're just normal people.
"She messaged me on the Friday (February 20) and she asked me if I had seen Becky or I could help with the search.
"The police came to speak to me and as soon as they announced the ages I just knew it was them.
"She's just a normal person, they both are. There's no reason they could do it. I've been racking my brains but I just don't get it.
"Shauna knew Becky but not particularly well. Nathan is Becky's step-brother.
"He's Anjie's son, I assume from a previous relationship.
"My mind just can't compute it. I'm in shock. I've been thrown into this mad world that just doesn't make sense."


The next quotes appear to be about the others arrested, which at that time I think was JP,DD,KD,SD(twins brother) who lived in that area plus JI. Theres mention of a couple with a toddler that could be NM and SH but I think it's JP and KD


A friend of four of the people involved in the latest arrests said today: “I’ve known them all my life – I’ve been on holidays with them and I’m as dumbfounded as everybody else.
“They cleaned up the streets round here 10 years ago when they locked up a lot of the drug dealers but this is very, very shocking.
“I would have thought there’s no way in hell these four can be involved because they all have jobs and don’t fit the picture.”
A woman neighbour said: “I know the couple who live in the house very well.
“They have a toddler and I wouldn’t expect this sort of thing of them.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-stepbrother-girlfriend-quizzed-5268171

 

[skibaboo]

Just had a search on Twitter. Although not charged at this point, the first mention I can find of being arrested "on suspcion of" is at 8.24 on March 2nd(not sure if thats UK time or not though)

28 yr old man & 21 yr old woman arrested on suspicion of kidnap and murder of #BeckyWatts
[video=twitter;572432391836463104]https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/572432391836463104[/video]

At that point the couple arrested weren't named though.

Just catching up again. It's 4:24 PM (UK) It says so on the tweet for me

 

[Coldpizza]

Admin note

The personalizing of posts and discussing other members stops here.

 

[ColourPurple]

A friend of the couple said: "I just can't believe it. I feel like I'm in an episode of EastEnders.
"I haven't spoken to them for a few months but we used to be really close."They're just normal people.
"She messaged me on the Friday (February 20) and she asked me if I had seen Becky or I could help with the search.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-stepbrother-girlfriend-quizzed-5268171

Is this the search SH claimed not to know was happening?

 

[Tortoise]

The jury have to make decisions on all four at the same time then?

They cannot make a decision on say, NM then retire again to consider SH, and so on?

It is going to take long time then I imagine - poor Jury.

Will they be sent home or kept in an hotel?

eta - Only 11 of them as well.

Yes, all defendants at the same time.

I haven't heard if they are staying in a hotel. can't even guess, it is getting a lot of press coverage but they are instructed not to read or research anything.

 

[YidArmyRach]

Found this old article earlier and thought some of the comment smight be interesting to look back on. It's at the tie Becky's body was found and includes friends and neighbours thoughts on those arrested.

Of NM and SH

Police were today granted an extra 24 hours to quiz two suspects after Becky's body was found cut up in a house a mile from her home.
Nathan is believed to be the son of Anjie Galsworthy, 49, who is married to Becky's dad Darren, 51.
A friend of the couple said: "I just can't believe it. I feel like I'm in an episode of EastEnders.
"I haven't spoken to them for a few months but we used to be really close."They're just normal people.
"She messaged me on the Friday (February 20) and she asked me if I had seen Becky or I could help with the search.
"The police came to speak to me and as soon as they announced the ages I just knew it was them.
"She's just a normal person, they both are. There's no reason they could do it. I've been racking my brains but I just don't get it.
"Shauna knew Becky but not particularly well. Nathan is Becky's step-brother.
"He's Anjie's son, I assume from a previous relationship.
"My mind just can't compute it. I'm in shock. I've been thrown into this mad world that just doesn't make sense."


The next quotes appear to be about the others arrested, which at that time I think was JP,DD,KD,SD(twins brother) who lived in that area plus JI. Theres mention of a couple with a toddler that could be NM and SH but I think it's JP and KD


A friend of four of the people involved in the latest arrests said today: “I’ve known them all my life – I’ve been on holidays with them and I’m as dumbfounded as everybody else.
“They cleaned up the streets round here 10 years ago when they locked up a lot of the drug dealers but this is very, very shocking.
“I would have thought there’s no way in hell these four can be involved because they all have jobs and don’t fit the picture.”
A woman neighbour said: “I know the couple who live in the house very well.
“They have a toddler and I wouldn’t expect this sort of thing of them.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-stepbrother-girlfriend-quizzed-5268171

Two thoughts.

I thought they didn't have any friends. As the friend says "she's just a normal person, they both are" (putting SH first) sounds like this was more of a friend of SH, than NM.

I thought SH said she wasn't aware of any searches for Becky?

 

[skibaboo]

They've both mentioned music being on and I saw a headline yesterday about a different case that made me stop and think. Here's the headline:

Man 'who turned up loud music to cover the sound of him beating his lover' is accused of killing her, stuffing her body into a suitcase and dumping it in a canal
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-33...ing-stuffing-body-suitcase-dumping-canal.html

It would make a lot of sense, logically. I mean not only the above, but how many times do you see it on TV and in movies? Turn music up loud to cover up any loud noises/screams? Could be why cbeebies was on TV in the living room too, might not have been just for the little girl, but extra 'noise' The neighbours houses are not that far away.