GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #15

[YidArmyRach]

I would have to look at the pics again of CML, as it would depend on the width of the door frame.
The one I remember in my childhood home, the bar was placed on the outer section of the frame at the top of the door, meaning the actual door could be closed properly. I am not describing this very well, but if you look at a typical door frame, there are two parts at the top. One that the door slots in to when closed and then an outer section that you can see when the door is closed.
It does depend on width though.
Have just been doing a test with doors in my house and definately we could fit a large sturdy bar into any of the bedroom doors and still close the door properly. But we would struggle with our bathroom door as the frame is quite narrow.

But would the door close with a body suspended off the bar?

 

[Clio]

Dom Reynolds Verified account  ‏@domreynolds · 39s40 seconds ago
Judge summarising forensic evidence. V graphic. #beckywatts died from suffocation but had 15 posthumous stab wounds. Body found in 8 parts.

 

[Tortoise]

nothing different from what has already been tweeted to be found in the Mirror yet.

 

[YidArmyRach]

Dom Reynolds Verified account  ‏@domreynolds · 39s40 seconds ago
Judge summarising forensic evidence. V graphic. #beckywatts died from suffocation but had 15 posthumous stab wounds. Body found in 8 parts.

I would have liked more questions asked of MN regarding this - he stated that he strangled Becky.

If he did 'only' strangle Becky, then who suffocated her? I could believe that he wrongly thought she was dead, but then she actually suffocated in the suitcase (well, if I actually believed his story and the suitcase was bigger), but it has always been stated that Becky died in the house. So if NM didn't suffocate her, who did?

 

[ColourPurple]

I am reading that as Xs being made, rather than describing the screwdriver.
I think the Xs were either made, same as the knife, to try and speed up the elimination of bodily fluids......... or, they were made in rage by 2 people whose game had not gone to plan.

They're the injuries on the neck that might have been made while still alive. I've still not ruled out that those neck injuries might have been linked to their viewing choices those two nights after Becky was killed. On the night she died one of them was browsing the web for Vampire Diaries and the following night they downloaded and watched Underworld which is a vampire horror movie ( which is also when she showed him the do you want to hide a body clip ).

I know vampire stuff is pretty popular, does anyone know if there's anything in either Vampire Diaries or Underworld that ties in with anything about how Becky died or whether cut marks in the shape of criss crosses could have a vampire link?

 

[sar2them1984]

I would have liked more questions asked of MN regarding this - he stated that he strangled Becky.

If he did 'only' strangle Becky, then who suffocated her? I could believe that he wrongly thought she was dead, but then she actually suffocated in the suitcase (well, if I actually believed his story and the suitcase was bigger), but it has always been stated that Becky died in the house. So if NM didn't suffocate her, who did?

See for me this is a sticking point. If NM is lying about how he murdered Becky how are we meant to believe his claim that there was a kidnap plot

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[ColourPurple]

But would the door close with a body suspended off the bar?

Possibly, I wonder if they checked the door for dna or if everything in that room was bleached and cleaned. Though it's only if SH is innocent that he'd need the door to close anyway.

 

[Clio]

I would have liked more questions asked of MN regarding this - he stated that he strangled Becky.

If he did 'only' strangle Becky, then who suffocated her? I could believe that he wrongly thought she was dead, but then she actually suffocated in the suitcase (well, if I actually believed his story and the suitcase was bigger), but it has always been stated that Becky died in the house. So if NM didn't suffocate her, who did?

If NM did suffocate Becky and he knew he had suffocated her, I doubt he would admit to it because any chance of him being found not guilty of murder would be gone.

 

[Tortoise]

I would have liked more questions asked of MN regarding this - he stated that he strangled Becky.

If he did 'only' strangle Becky, then who suffocated her? I could believe that he wrongly thought she was dead, but then she actually suffocated in the suitcase (well, if I actually believed his story and the suitcase was bigger), but it has always been stated that Becky died in the house. So if NM didn't suffocate her, who did?

it is in the pathologist's evidence she was suffocated by a hand over her mouth and nose.

 

[cottonweaver]

sorry to query again but did NM give proper detail on the school days air-deprive method he used? We used to do something similar to ourselves at school - it left no marks

Was he questioned by pros on the detail of this school days method? Why not? Did forensics on stand specifically dispute that or inform on likelihood of evidence of that techniques.( I know they said signs of suffoc, hand held over mouth indicative.)

Becky Watts died from suffocation

● Definition: failure of oxygen to reach the blood
Types of asphyxia include suffocation, strangulation / hanging, positional / mechanical / traumatic
● Smothering: obstruction of nose and mouth
● Accidental: eg. infant wedged between mattress and wall
● Suicidal: placing plastic bag over one's head and tightening around neck
● Homicidal: duct tape across nose and mouth, covering face with pillow, closing off nose and mouth of young child with hand
● Overlay:eg. infant death due to parent onto child in bed; involves smothering and mechanical asphyxia
● No specific autopsy findings; may see signs of struggle (contusions/abrasions on face and mouth) in adult victims

http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsasphyxia.html
In here, the one we did is classed as "postionial" apparently. Terrible, but kids have been doing it for decades!

ETA - cross posting - didn't see the other posts

 

[Alyce]

But would the door close with a body suspended off the bar?

No but then I believe they were both involved in the dismemberment, so it would not have to.
Child of course would need to be put into bedroom and - I would hope - door firmly closed or locked so she could not get out.

 

[Tortoise]

If NM did suffocate Becky and he knew he had suffocated her, I doubt he would admit to it because any chance of him being found not guilty of murder would be gone.

all my opinion. NM has problems with his arm muscles - hanging washing - I think keeping a hand over Becky's mouth and nose for a long time, while she was resisting and biting (internal gum injuries), then I think it would have required considerable arm strength to maintain.

 

[Alyce]

I would have liked more questions asked of MN regarding this - he stated that he strangled Becky.

If he did 'only' strangle Becky, then who suffocated her? I could believe that he wrongly thought she was dead, but then she actually suffocated in the suitcase (well, if I actually believed his story and the suitcase was bigger), but it has always been stated that Becky died in the house. So if NM didn't suffocate her, who did?

Something I hope the Jury will be asking themselves

 

[YidArmyRach]

If NM did suffocate Becky and he knew he had suffocated her, I doubt he would admit to it because any chance of him being found not guilty of murder would be gone.

But an accidental suffocation when trying to stop someone shouting and screaming is a lot nicer than "I just punched her once in the face to knock her out and then did that strangling thing to really make sure she was unconscious" which is NM's story. And a lot more believable for a manslaughter charge in my opinion.

If he accidentally killed her (without having any plan to cause her harm) then why wouldn't he just call an ambulance? To take away a body, store it, dismember it and then dump it seems to me to be a very extreme way of dealing with an accident.

Its all one big pack of lies. I think they are covering up something much worse than the horror they are willing to let people believe.

 

[ColourPurple]

If NM did suffocate Becky and he knew he had suffocated her, I doubt he would admit to it because any chance of him being found not guilty of murder would be gone.

See I don't get how strangling is deemed a "better" option than suffocating.

I can imagine somebody panicking and wanting to stop somebody screaming and shouting , putting their hand over their mouth and accidentally suffocating them but I can't imagine somebody accidentally putting their hands round somebody's neck and accidentally strangling them.

ETA ahh maybe with strangling he could use his excuse about that playground strangling game that he couldn't use with suffocation.

 

[Alyce]

They're the injuries on the neck that might have been made while still alive. I've still not ruled out that those neck injuries might have been linked to their viewing choices those two nights after Becky was killed. On the night she died one of them was browsing the web for Vampire Diaries and the following night they downloaded and watched Underworld which is a vampire horror movie ( which is also when she showed him the do you want to hide a body clip ).

I know vampire stuff is pretty popular, does anyone know if there's anything in either Vampire Diaries or Underworld that ties in with anything about how Becky died or whether cut marks in the shape of criss crosses could have a vampire link?

Ah sorry, my mistake. That sounds far worse than the scenario I had thought of. Crosses and Vampires - awful.

 

[Tortoise]

No but then I believe they were both involved in the dismemberment, so it would not have to.
Child of course would need to be put into bedroom and - I would hope - door firmly closed or locked so she could not get out.

oh gosh, isn't it horrendous to think she might have seen anything. I don't know if they'd have cared or not.

 

[cottonweaver]

See for me this is a sticking point. If NM is lying about how he murdered Becky how are we meant to believe his claim that there was a kidnap plot

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This is exactly what I want the judge to direct on
but added in - if you believed the Def is lying at what point do you discount all their testimony as an unreliable witness and thus then move on to the rest of the circumstantial evidence. ( there is case law on this. etc )

Plus if you can discount NM's testimony ( strike it through) you discount his testimony on his points about SH not being involved.

extra :

Pros said
He told the jury Matthews had "lied and lied" again since Becky disappeared and asked whether it was possible to "really rely on anything he said".

He questioned Matthews' story at trial saying it was "beyond belief".

He said to the court: "Has it been to tell you what really happened or has it been to try and get away with murder and has it been an attempt to rule out Shauna?"

Read more: http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-28122717-detail/story.html#ixzz3r5ieoaWd

 

[YidArmyRach]

No but then I believe they were both involved in the dismemberment, so it would not have to.
Child of course would need to be put into bedroom and - I would hope - door firmly closed or locked so she could not get out.

Yes, that was my point (don't mean that to sound rude, I can't think of another way of wording it!). I mean, if they used the bar in the door frame, then SH can't possibly have been unaware of what was happening, so must be involved.

 

[Clio]

See I don't get how strangling is deemed a "better" option than suffocating.

I can imagine somebody panicking and wanting to stop somebody screaming and shouting , putting their hand over their mouth and accidentally suffocating them but I can't imagine somebody accidentally putting their hands round somebody's neck and accidentally strangling them.

ETA ahh maybe with strangling he could use his excuse about that playground strangling game that he couldn't use with suffocation.

It's not "better" but it is quicker and uses less force and is therefore more believable as manslaughter - not that I believe him, just saying

And if it's quicker, more "possible" it could have happened in the timespan given