GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #7

[jessie]

In June the police or CPS said they now had enough evidence to charge SH with murder. Where is it?

A bit of dna on one of the masks (I'm thinking here she could have held a towel to her mouth and nose anyway) doesn't seem strong enough to include her in the dismemberment even.

I have been reading a lot of CPS guidelines etc about charges for murder and Joint Murder but so far I can't see anything that's really proven against SH.

Is it possible there is some decisive evidence still to come, or would that have been brought up at the start of the trial. ?

This is all so flipping frustrating !!!

 

[Alyce]

Just caught up on today's feed and going through the timeline I can't get my head round them leaving RWs body in their flat for what was it, 3 whole days? What were they going to say if someone turned up eg the police or one of the family looking for RW as I really believe by then they had their suspicions alongside the police!! I just don't get why they kept her in their house when they had so many opportunities at the start to take her elsewhere! Definitely not the brightest this pair ��

Really felt for RWs friend today too, truly traumatic time for her. I also feel for AG today too with her mum giving evidence. What an awful situation for this whole family especially AG.

I agree re the body. Becky was not officially reported missing until one day later - Friday Feb 20 and I am fairly sure the serious searching did not begin until Sunday Feb 22.
So they had a body in the boot of their car and could have driven elsewhere - and plenty of water around.
It certainly does say they are not the brightest.

As for Becky's family, there are no words really, particularly for AG. Simply horrendous for them.

 

[Clio]

In June the police or CPS said they now had enough evidence to charge SH with murder. Where is it?

A bit of dna on one of the masks (I'm thinking here she could have held a towel to her mouth and nose anyway) doesn't seem strong enough to include her in the dismemberment even.

I have been reading a lot of CPS guidelines etc about charges for murder and Joint Murder but so far I can't see anything that's really proven against SH.

Is it possible there is some decisive evidence still to come, or would that have been brought up at the start of the trial. ?

This is all so flipping frustrating !!!

Key points of evidence are usually presented in the prosecutions opening statement. I suppose it's not impossible but I would be surprised if they have something major which hasn't yet been mentioned.

 

[Tortoise]

So a picture is emerging, for me anyway, pertaining to the dynamics of NM and SH's relationship.

He possibly has huge abandonment (anger) issues. Separated from his mother at age 7, and possibly his father at an earlier age. When he is 15, his mother takes on a parental role in 3 year old Becky's life. It's not hard to see how he might project his anger at his mother (developed from age 7) onto Becky. SH's mother has spoken of his inappropriate sexualised behaviour, demanding sexual favours from a 14 year old SH and rubbing himself up against her sister. His texts to SH reveal a hatred of her too. The rape video on his? phone further evidence of a hatred towards women. His talk of kidnapping a school girl for sex also abnormal and violent fantasies.

Then we have Shauna. Also apparently in foster care as a child, probably with anger and abandonment issues towards her mother. Her mother had not even met the grandchild and probably would still not have done if SH hadn't needed a bolt-hole. Displaying also a shared hatred and jealousy of Becky and willing to share in fantasies of kidnapping teenage girls.

I would say this was a planned killing by NM, probably not in the sense that he planned for it to happen in the house. If NM has talked of killing Becky before, as her friend Courtney has told police, then he had planned to go to that extreme in his mind for at least two years. There was no way they could have released Becky afterwards, without getting into BIG trouble with the law. I think NM was driven by an internal rage, and it probably played out in his mind in a sexual fantasy of raping a terrified Becky and then he would have to kill her to stop her talking. Otherwise he could have just walked away from Becky after failing in his attempt to kidnap her, and no-one would have ever known what his intentions were. The murderous intent surfaced within minutes of them having arrived at the house, even without the rape he had planned. I think he didn't care whether SH was on board with his actions or not, and that SH joined in because she was already involved in the plan (with stun guns) that had gone wrong, and wanted to help ensure that Becky never talked about what they had done together, as a team.

These are just my thoughts.

 

[Insp.Dots]

This is where Retribution may be able to give us some background. I do hope s/he is OK and will come back once recovered from the operation.

Yes, Totally agree and hope she comes back as soon as she's well enough. I understand some people don't think she can add much but she can add a lot in the way of background info and don't think for one second she is here just to add gossip!

 

[MissUnderstood]

Yes, Totally agree and hope she comes back as soon as she's well enough. I understand some people don't think she can add much but she can add a lot in the way of background info and don't think for one second she is here just to add gossip!

She wasn't treated very nicely, I'd be surprised if she came back!


MOO!!

 

[Edinlass]

She wasn't treated very nicely, I'd be surprised if she came back!


MOO!!

I agree!!!!

 

[Ironside]

I'm starting to think that NM was not actually a drug dealer. If he was quibbling over £100 that he owed BW he can't have had very much money at all.

 

[Alyce]

Key points of evidence are usually presented in the prosecutions opening statement. I suppose it's not impossible but I would be surprised if they have something major which hasn't yet been mentioned.

Yes, that's the bit that's worrying me. On the face of what we have seen so far, it is not hard to see why SH has gone for not guilty pleas.

 

[Alyce]

I'm starting to think that NM was not actually a drug dealer. If he was quibbling over £100 that he owed BW he can't have had very much money at all.

Am wondering just how close NM was to his pals who helped out with the van ? Did they think/know he was into drug dealing ? because surely they didn't believe he could produce a payment of £5,000 if all he was doing was dealing in knock off televisions/phones/tablets or similar.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm starting to think that NM was not actually a drug dealer. If he was quibbling over £100 that he owed BW he can't have had very much money at all.

Am wondering just how close NM was to his pals who helped out with the van ? Did they think/know he was into drug dealing ? because surely they didn't believe he could produce a payment of £5,000 if all he was doing was dealing in knock off televisions/phones/tablets or similar.

He may have been just a minor dealer, if that. If the others knew him as someone who could get you a bit of weed, he might have convinced them he was a bigger player.

 

[Clio]

Yes, that's the bit that's worrying me. On the face of what we have seen so far, it is not hard to see why SH has gone for not guilty pleas.

What's puzzling me atm is how they hope to get a murder conviction against SH. I've said it before and I still think there is a possibility that they are planning to use Joint Enterprise.

There are three types of Joint Enterprise
...
(3) Where P and D participate together in one crime (crime A) and in the course of it P commits a second crime (crime B) which D had foreseen he might commit.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/assets/uploads/files/Joint_Enterprise.pdf

So NM/SH participate in kidnap in the course of which NM kills Becky which SH must have foreseen as a possibility as he had talked about doing so over the last two years. Therefore she is also guilty of Becky's death even if she wasn't in the house when NM killed her.

In order for this to work, then I think that NM/SH have to first be found guilty of conspiracy to kidnap.

What's not clear to me, assuming they are found guilty of conspiracy to kidnap, is where does it leave SH if NM is found not guilty of murder? Is she then also guilty of manslaughter?

The other reason this occurred to me is because this case has come to trial so quickly. Normally murder cases take about a year or so to get to trial. I wondered if that was anything to do with the fact that the JE law is due to come under review very soon.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...er-supreme-court-law-joint-enterprise-offence

I may be way off here but there must be some reason that the CPS allowed this to go to trial.

 

[ms_x_to_the_m]

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial · 15m15 minutes ago
The judge ordered the jury to ignore it. There are restrictions banning anyone from reporting what was said.

I saw on the fb pedophile site, that he was just telling them off.

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

Clio - thank you for that clear and concise timeline.

Just looking at the saturday and sunday "shopping spree" - I am wondering, did they get half way through the dismemberment and run out of supplies? or did they purposefully split the shopping between stores so they looked less suspicious.

There could be elements of the latter. However, they split the purchase over a couple of days. An otherwise organized individual who wanted to spread purchases around to reduce suspicion would have done so on the same day. An organized individual would be efficient. They will have a list of items. They have a goal. They have a deadline. So they will buy all the supplies on the same day. Get the job done. Pack up as soon as possible.

This is not what we are observing here. These suspects buy items one day. Then buy more the next day. And the next, they buy more of similar items. IMO they are the disorganized variety, totally green in this murder venture, and taking things one step as a time in an organic manner, getting things as they need, instead of them being a tactician strategically trying to avoid suspicion by spreading purchases around.

Plus, they are on CCTV all over the country. If they are holding their cell phones, they will get cell tower pinged and located, or if they have a smart phone, a specific GPS trail that can be tracked on the phone's metadata (aka backdoor). Its hard to believe they cannot be tracked, as clearly, they were indeed tracked. A careful organized criminal would have done a lot more than just spreading purchases around different locations. Such a criminal would have probably prepared supplies well ahead of time.

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

I really don't know. I'm confused. It seems they are basing the whole of the dismemberment site on NMS say so. NO DNA evidence of Becky In bathroom. NO Bloody or other trace evidence tying Becky to the bathroom....

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Yeah. I agree. I kinda wonder about the bathroom theory myself. Unless they were really efficient and draped the place real well.

Brainstorming further, do we know if the police turned the place upside down? Including the homes of some of the suspect's friends, currently just charged with storing the suitcases?

Is it possible for the suspects to have done the dismemberment in one location of their home, complete with the mess you'd expect. Then cleaned the place up to best of their abilities (while still leaving evidence). Then covered that spot up with the crap that you see in their cluttered house, as what you would expect of a hoarder, and in essence covered the crime scene? Then left the toilet sparkling clean (purposely or from circumstance), and hence the cops naturally focused on that location? To eliminate this possibility, the cops would need to turn that whole house upside down and did forensics on the uncluttered house (i.e. removed all the clutter outside of the house). I'm not sure if they did that or not.

Or maybe you can also go back to the theory that maybe somebody else helped them, i.e. they did the dismemberment in another location (not the female suspect's house).

 

[squish]

Unfortunately I find it hard to believe that Becky wasn't sexually assaulted. He had watched a video of a girl being raped, while the attacker held his hand over her face - which is how Becky was murdered.

There was also a used tampon found among the bloody clothes and objects in one of the suitcases; I haven't seen it mentioned, but it must have been Becky's because if it belonged to SH she would surely have just thrown it down the toilet. The tampon must have been specific to the crime in some way; maybe he/they found it during the dismemberment (but why would they remove it?), or - sadly more plausibly IMO - he removed it during the murder for access.

I really think that NM must have handled the tampon, because I think a woman would have thrown it down the toilet. He/they stupidly thought a better disposal method was required for this (incriminating?) tampon.

I wonder if the any of the blood found on the duvets was menstrual?

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

Hmm I can't work out if she's defending/excusing him or simply stating the facts

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Probably a little bit of both. There might be truth in what they say too. Its no different to the female suspect's friend who recently took the stand slanting the narrative in the female suspect's favor and painting the male suspect as the nasty dominant abusive. Everybody is biased to the one they are closer with I suppose.

The truth might be somewhere in the middle. Or a bit of each.

 

[Tortoise]

Unfortunately I find it hard to believe that Becky wasn't sexually assaulted. He had watched a video of a girl being raped, while the attacker held his hand over her face - which is how Becky was murdered.

There was also a used tampon found among the bloody clothes and objects in one of the suitcases; I haven't seen it mentioned, but it must have been Becky's because if it belonged to SH she would surely have just thrown it down the toilet. The tampon must have been specific to the crime in some way; maybe he/they found it during the dismemberment (but why would they remove it?), or - sadly more plausibly IMO - he removed it during the murder for access.

I really think that NM must have handled the tampon, because I think a woman would have thrown it down the toilet. He/they stupidly thought a better disposal method was required for this (incriminating?) tampon.

I wonder if the any of the blood found on the duvets was menstrual?

I haven't been able to think of another innocent reason for its removal either. Unless they thought that by draining the body of as much fluid as possible would facilitate their task in some way or I don't know, prevent or aid faster decomposition?

Why indeed did they add salt to the body? You would think they would not want to preserve the body, but maybe they misunderstood its effect.

Anyway, as for the tampon, it wasn't SH's because she was pregnant. And I remember Becky's father putting out a statement saying it was Becky's 'time of the month' and asking all females to check the underwear of males in their households for blood. I still wonder how he knew that, seems an odd thing for a father to know.

 

[Tortoise]

There could be elements of the latter. However, they split the purchase over a couple of days. An otherwise organized individual who wanted to spread purchases around to reduce suspicion would have done so on the same day. An organized individual would be efficient. They will have a list of items. They have a goal. They have a deadline. So they will buy all the supplies on the same day. Get the job done. Pack up as soon as possible.

This is not what we are observing here. These suspects buy items one day. Then buy more the next day. And the next, they buy more of similar items. IMO they are the disorganized variety, totally green in this murder venture, and taking things one step as a time in an organic manner, getting things as they need, instead of them being a tactician strategically trying to avoid suspicion by spreading purchases around.

Plus, they are on CCTV all over the country. If they are holding their cell phones, they will get cell tower pinged and located, or if they have a smart phone, a specific GPS trail that can be tracked on the phone's metadata (aka backdoor). Its hard to believe they cannot be tracked, as clearly, they were indeed tracked. A careful organized criminal would have done a lot more than just spreading purchases around different locations. Such a criminal would have probably prepared supplies well ahead of time.

we are also dealing with two suspects in this case. one may be of the disorganised variety and the other possibly not quite so disorganised, but possibly not the one making the decisions.

the other point is that NM was a penny-pincher by all accounts. He would charge SH for petrol. Possibly didn't want to spend money on items they may not end up using.

 

[Cherwell]

To eliminate this possibility, the cops would need to turn that whole house upside down and did forensics on the uncluttered house (i.e. removed all the clutter outside of the house). I'm not sure if they did that or not.

They did empty the house. It was specified when the jury visit was made that all the contents had been removed from the house, and that they might not have been replaced in exactly the same positions, or even the same rooms. They would hardly have gone to that trouble without doing forensics.