GUILTY Uk - Sophie Lionnet, 21, Body Found Burned, Wandsworth, London, 20 Sep 2017 *arrests*

[michelle230]

...Judge Hilliard!!

 

[Tiny]

Thanks again Michelle. Honestly I am speechless. There has been intent. It’s so heartbreaking. Poor Sophie - no doubt looking after those children for hours on end, nowhere decent to sleep, not given enough to eat and now this. I hope those two get their just desserts.

 

[mrazda71]

Going to write two posts as lots to report back!
We were informed this morning that the case would not start until 12.45 today. None of the officials knew why! So - waste of a morning.
I only started going to court last week so missed a lot at the start and was confused about certain timelines.
I couldn`t work out who the children belonged to - something seemed amiss - and my hunch was correct. It`s the * younger child *, not the older one who belongs to MW. He has never met his son. He didn`t even know SK was pregnant and had given birth til the event had actually taken place.
I spoke to a couple of other people who had attended earlier in the case. I will post what they told me but bear in mind, it is third hand!

RSBM

Hi Michelle

I'm just pondering on the 'never met his son' part ...

I've been a Websleuther for a good few years but I'm still never 100% sure what we can and can't post ...

So, admin please do as you see fit with the following.

I'm not jumping to conclusions but ... I've seen a photo of A child which could be the son of Mr someone and in possibly in his care, along with comments from a person who could be SK ...

Have I said too much? Not enough?

 

[michelle230]

RSBM

Hi Michelle

I'm just pondering on the 'never met his son' part ...

I've been a Websleuther for a good few years but I'm still never 100% sure what we can and can't post ...

So, admin please do as you see fit with the following.

I'm not jumping to conclusions but ... I've seen a photo of A child which could be the son of Mr someone and in possibly in his care, along with comments from a person who could be SK ...

Have I said too much?

Mrazda
The time line is very confusing.
He obviously knew and spent time with the older child. They did live together for a while.
What adds to my own difficulty in getting my head round it all, is that *she* left him! She just disappeared! He was very upset apparently and paid for her to come out to LA to maybe get back together again.
I am wondering if he has definite proof that the younger chid is his...

 

[michelle230]

Mrazda - sent you PM x

 

[mrazda71]

RSBM

Hi Michelle

I'm just pondering on the 'never met his son' part ...

I've been a Websleuther for a good few years but I'm still never 100% sure what we can and can't post ...

So, admin please do as you see fit with the following.

I'm not jumping to conclusions but ... I've seen a photo of A child which could be the son of Mr someone and in possibly in his care, along with comments from a person who could be SK ...

Have I said too much?

Mrazda
The time line is very confusing.
He obviously knew and spent time with the older child. They did live together for a while.
What adds to my own difficulty in getting my head round it all, is that *she* left him! She just disappeared! He was very upset apparently and paid for her to come out to LA to maybe get back together again.
I am wondering if he has definite proof that the younger chid is his...

The photo I've seen is in 2014 and child looks around 2 ...

 

[mrazda71]

Mrazda - sent you PM x

Not had anything yet ...

 

[michelle230]

Not had anything yet ...

Just tried again...

 

[michelle230]

I'm sure that he has not met the younger child. It came up that he had said that he wanted to meet him, was paying all this money - and was not allowed to ever see him!

 

[michelle230]

By the way, every piece of evidence show that - yes - SK was obsessive BUT regardless of days and weeks of interrogation, torture, visits to police stations etc, they themselves (SK and OM) knew that none of it was true. They knew it was fantastical rubbish.

 

[Elainera]

By the way, every piece of evidence show that - yes - SK was obsessive BUT regardless of days and weeks of interrogation, torture, visits to police stations etc, they themselves (SK and OM) knew that none of it was true. They knew it was fantastical rubbish.

bbm What makes you say that? The way you described the tapes you saw/heard in court in sounded to me more like they really believed all the allegations.

 

[michelle230]

Lots of indicators.
For example, each time SK had a chance to take things further e.g. help for her "disturbed and traumatised " son, she didn't turn up. When the police telephoned her with a firm appointment to meet at the station to discuss her allegations in more detail (after she had dragged Sophie in ranting and raving),and look at the "medical notes she had obtained in America", she didn't even get back to them (after complaining that they were not doing anything!).
I believe that there was a reason Sophie was murdered when she was.
The date that she was allowed, by her captors to return home, was the date (give or take a couple of days), that the freeloaders were due to be evicted. I'm sure they had nowhere else to go. My thoughts are that they were driven even more by anger - that here was this (in their eyes - inferior) young girl who had both a family and a home to go to. They had neither. Que jealously and rage.
And not least - by that time they had beaten, starved, tortured and imprisoned her.
Who might she tell.
I think they knew they had gone too far and they couldn't risk being reported by Sophie as to what she had endured.
These, to me, are some (some!)parts of the jigsaw.

 

[michelle230]

Elainera
Also if they believed it all to be true, they had hours and hours of "confessions" and reams and reams of Sophie's written "confessions" (forced to write all night hunched up over a desk.
So- ask yourself - why didn't they take the enormous amount of "evidence " they had, to the police?
They knew exactly what they were doing and that it was crazy and abusive. They just couldn't stop themselves.
Sophie was the easy punchbag for all their life failures, disappointments and frustrations. Misplaced rage and anger finally boiling over.
At least that's my perceptions.
There is no logic. Only two deranged people and a defenceless target

 

[janeh]

Elainera
Also if they believed it all to be true, they had hours and hours of "confessions" and reams and reams of Sophie's written "confessions" (forced to write all night hunched up over a desk.
So- ask yourself - why didn't they take the enormous amount of "evidence " they had, to the police?
They knew exactly what they were doing and that it was crazy and abusive. They just couldn't stop themselves.
Sophie was the easy punchbag for all their life failures, disappointments and frustrations. Misplaced rage and anger finally boiling over.
At least that's my perceptions.
There is no logic. Only two deranged people and a defenceless target

I agree with everything you say. I only hope that both will be imprisoned for a very long time. They should be satisfied with that outcome as they be able to continue their lives as freeloaders. Their lifestyle prior to the death of Sophie was one of entitlement and irresponsibility.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[mrazda71]

Elainera
Also if they believed it all to be true, they had hours and hours of "confessions" and reams and reams of Sophie's written "confessions" (forced to write all night hunched up over a desk.
So- ask yourself - why didn't they take the enormous amount of "evidence " they had, to the police?
They knew exactly what they were doing and that it was crazy and abusive. They just couldn't stop themselves.
Sophie was the easy punchbag for all their life failures, disappointments and frustrations. Misplaced rage and anger finally boiling over.
At least that's my perceptions.
There is no logic. Only two deranged people and a defenceless target

Will try and get on the full site and see if I can see what's going on, don't 'think' my inbox is full, tried sending you a pm.

Do you think they would have ever tried to blackmail Mark Walton for money? Using all their 'evidence' ...

 

[michelle230]

Will try and get on the full site and see if I can see what's going on, don't 'think' my inbox is full, tried sending you a pm.

Do you think they would have ever tried to blackmail Mark Walton for money? Using all their 'evidence' ...

Hi Mrazda
We'll keep trying to PM and hopefully we'll succeed at some point!
This site has definitely changed since I was last on and I'm finding it a lot trickier to find my way around.
Re the blackmail - I can absolutely see why you are raising that.
But no. It wasn't that.
The problem we are having is that we always assume there is a motive. It is hard to get our heads around badness for the pure sake of badness.
Blackmail would at least make sense. But there is *no * sense to this case.
Some (few) people are just bad and mad. Though they are not mad in the schizophrenic or psychotic sense. They (especially her) have severe (and I believe ) and untreatable personality disorders.
That's why when the papers use the word "revenge" they are wrong. Revenge for what?
*She* left *him*.
The only revenge I can think of is murdering Sophie was their revenge against the world for not bestowing on them what they felt they were entitled to.
All my own perceptions obviously!

 

[Kasmeer]

Just caught up on this thread and my head is spinning, usually I can at least see SOME sense in what people do, but this makes little to no sense, all those interrogations, yet I can see the point that they probably didn't even believe their accusations, torturing the poor girl when if they really believed any of what they accused her of, the obvious solution (aside from police) would be a ticket back to France and good riddance! Really can't see any sense in this, it seems like complete madness, if they actually believed it I'd see it as paranoia and some kind of mental health breakdown, but it doesn't even look like that so I don't know, just evil? Hope they're locked up for a very very long time.

I'm a bit late here, but thanks Michelle for all the insights, it helps a lot!

 

[Tortoise]

I think there's a possibility that SK wanted to allege that Mark Walton had sexually abused her or raped her. That would probably be Borderline Personality Disorder. I have experience of one who suffers from BPD in my extended family - the attention-seeking behaviour knows no bounds. SK tried to get her oldest son to say MW had abused him but she couldn't trust that he could carry it off, hence the appointments she didn't attend. Her way of getting evidence against MW was to find an adult who could be manipulated. Sophie probably initially showed signs of not disagreeing with anything that was suggested to her, and SK had found her ideal patsy. I expect Sophie was conditioned from a young age to please people to an extreme, to not dare speak up and to perhaps even believe she deserved poor treatment. The lowest self-esteem imaginable, even when it turned dangerous.

So I doubt it was about money but about attention-seeking. With Mark Walton's fame there comes a lot of attention. BPD sufferers crave it. I don't even know if crave is the right word, because it is never satiated, it really is delusional. That would be my armchair diagnosis.

As I've said before she had OM under her spell too. IMO he was in love with SK and wanted to rescue her, to the point of becoming an abuser too. I think he may have believed SK's claims and believed that MW really had drugged them all.

It reminds me of the Stanford prison experiment and the Milgram experiment. People who would not ordinarily harm others can torture others in the 'right' conditions.

 

[michelle230]

Hi Tortoise,
I think you are right in that a lot of it was about drama and attention, amongst other things. After all, what did she do to occupy her time all day? She didn`t work and Sophie was virtually the full time caretaker of the children. The school member of staff who have evidence said that it was always Sophie who brought/collected the boys from school. Other nannies who knew Sophie said she was always with the boys.
I think too that there was a great deal of jealousy - of anyone who had something she didn`t have - success, respect, money, family, stability. I think she probably wanted to destroy MW`s success just for the pleasure of destruction. Jealousy is about destruction.
I agree, too, in your thoughts about Sophie`s family although of course this is pure speculation. But there was a particular exchange between Sophie and her mother which made me wonder. I also wonder if this is why she couldn`t tell her mother the truth - the "mess she had got herself into.." As in..would that prove her mother right??? Will try and find that exchange later.
It`s never one thing that sets a situation off. It`s a whole chain of events, in the combination of a set of individuals that come together and create an explosion. A spider`s web that has been built slowly and almost invisibly, from outwards and crept insidiously towards the centre.

 

[michelle230]

This was the message I was thinking of...

"In text and Facebook messages read to the court, Mrs Devalonne told her daughter she loved her as she repeatedly pleaded for her return.

In June last year, Miss Lionnet wrote: “Yes Mum, you are right, I have been fooled, but not by people who are nothing to me, but by words.

“Indeed, it did not bring me more than a bit of experience, autonomy and a bit of authority.

“Still you are right, as I wrote yesterday to one of my former teachers, I should have listened to you and not to my heart. And I added that I was a stupid idiot.” "