UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

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  • #921
They must have known what the bike contract thing meant too (it was in her work diary, so clearly a work thing, and no one thought to go round to that address to check on her).
They might have, but wouldn't it be likely that she didn't need to go there? Just arranged for a courier to pick up and deliver the contract.

She seems to have told people, most likely at Sturgis, she had lost her stuff and that it was at the POW, given the police were round there the next morning (so they must have found out from someone, and fast).
Probably because she received two phone calls about it - one from the bank and one from the pub (just before she went out?). I guess the calls would have been taken by the receptionist and transferred to her, so as they were out of the ordinary Suzy would likely have said something. We're not sure if she already knew her stuff was missing, are we?
 
  • #922
Fax machines started to become ubiquitous during the mid to late 1980s. Anecdotally, we bought out first commercial premises (in an adjoining borough) in 1987. We used Telex and fax simultaneously to start with, Telex for international use.

Courier bikes were all over the place around West London during this period. Tons of businesses had accounts with couriers. I don't understand what 'Bike contract' means here though. It needs more factual explanation and there isn't any obvious information to go on. The only contracts that I'm aware of which estate agents routinely used at that time were letting contracts to tenants.

Thanks for this info, I was racking my brains trying to recall having ever used, or even heard of, a fax machine prior to 1988. In my instance I have no recall of knowing what one was before that year and I do remember a tutor showing us at college what one was. So I guess a fancy West London estate agents would have been ahead of the curve right? Even so, not sure personally.

I assumed it means 'bike the contract' (by cycle or motorbike courier) regarding securing the instruction for the property sale and becoming the exclusive agent but it's all open to interpretation.
 
  • #923
I'm curious to know who in Sturgis was actually aware of SJL's appointment at 37SR that she wrote in her diary, did she verbally tell people she was off there? If so you would expect her to take the keys, even if she wasn't really going there, for cover. She seems to have told people, most likely at Sturgis, she had lost her stuff and that it was at the POW, given the police were round there the next morning (so they must have found out from someone, and fast).

You'd think if she was chatty enough that day she'd have said, I'm off out this lunchtime to show that new Shorrolds place. AS makes it seem like people had to look in her diary though, after they realised she hadn't returned from wherever she went.

They must have known what the bike contract thing meant too (it was in her work diary, so clearly a work thing, and no one thought to go round to that address to check on her).
I don't think there's any evidence she was heading to 37SR aside from the diary entry; IIRC, AS says MG looked at her diary to see where she had gone because nobody knew.

Gratuitously telling your workmates a direct lie is a different level of deception compared to leaving a CYA "appointment" in your diary. You may be back before it's ever read, and it's really only there to cover your boss's back if he is asked where you are.

Another interesting point is that although she had clearly told colleagues about her stuff being found at the PoW, nobody mentions her expressing any surprise at this. I mean, I have never been to the PoW, so if I got a phone call from the bank to say Your stuff has been found at this pub you haven't been to - I'd be pretty bemused at how it got there. There is no suggestion SJL couldn't fathom what her stuff was doing there, so clearly she had been there the night before. We just don't know why or with whom, if anyone.
 
  • #924
I don't think there's any evidence she was heading to 37SR aside from the diary entry; IIRC, AS says MG looked at her diary to see where she had gone because nobody knew.

Gratuitously telling your workmates a direct lie is a different level of deception compared to leaving a CYA "appointment" in your diary. You may be back before it's ever read, and it's really only there to cover your boss's back if he is asked where you are.

I think this is a really interesting point.
Would be really good to know what the culture in the office was like. Did the fee earners (the sales people) often just not tell others or talk about which houses they were showing? Did SJL? Was it unusual for her to make an appointment and not mention it? Doesn't MG claim (at least as per the Crimewatch reconstruction) that he recalls her coming behind or near his desk to the key board (I assume he wasn't lying and he recalls her doing this before he went to lunch which should help with timings. Or he was mistaken--mixing his memories with a different day?)

37SR was new on the market. no? Was this the first time it was viewed? (If not who viewed it before?) if it was the first time, would that not merit a mention? As SJL had a cig break with colleagues? What was normal and what was not normal about her not mentioning her appointment?

Another interesting point is that although she had clearly told colleagues about her stuff being found at the PoW, nobody mentions her expressing any surprise at this. I mean, I have never been to the PoW, so if I got a phone call from the bank to say Your stuff has been found at this pub you haven't been to - I'd be pretty bemused at how it got there. There is no suggestion SJL couldn't fathom what her stuff was doing there, so clearly she had been there the night before. We just don't know why or with whom, if anyone.

Yes, that is curious. Unless she did. and that's why they recalled it, but then you'd assume more would be made of it if she was freaked out about it. Then it's an event that changed her mood and could precipitate other behaviour, no? At least it would be an "you'l never guess what happened" story. If I lost some valuable personal item for example and it was found at a pub near my house I never go to, I'd be wondering now it got there. I'd assume I dropped it on the street nearby and some honest soul took it to the pub as the nearest public place that people could keep it safe. I imagine SJL would have asked where did you find it? Did someone hand it in? There is no indication that SJL was fussed or freaked out though, or shaken.

SF told DV that she remembered something about a lost cheque book but wasn't sure if it was the same day or another day. My problem with all these memories is they are so old they might not be reliable but the event stuck in SF's mind, just not associated with SJL's disappearance. Maybe SF just wasn't SJL's main work buddy who she chatted to?

DId SJL lose stuff often?
 
  • #925
I don't think there's any evidence she was heading to 37SR aside from the diary entry; IIRC, AS says MG looked at her diary to see where she had gone because nobody knew.

Gratuitously telling your workmates a direct lie is a different level of deception compared to leaving a CYA "appointment" in your diary. You may be back before it's ever read, and it's really only there to cover your boss's back if he is asked where you are.

Another interesting point is that although she had clearly told colleagues about her stuff being found at the PoW, nobody mentions her expressing any surprise at this. I mean, I have never been to the PoW, so if I got a phone call from the bank to say Your stuff has been found at this pub you haven't been to - I'd be pretty bemused at how it got there. There is no suggestion SJL couldn't fathom what her stuff was doing there, so clearly she had been there the night before. We just don't know why or with whom, if anyone.
Are we now questioning all the facts that were established at the time of Suzy's disappearance? If you accept the evidence compiled by Andrew Stephen, there seems little doubt that she was going to meet a client outside 37 Shorrolds Road. What is the basis for scepticism regarding these events? There is solid, factual witness evidence she was there.

I haven't read Videcette's book although I gather from Youtube interviews I have seen/heard, that he is questioning any amount of information recorded in 1986: SL's movements; whether she turned left or right into Fulham Road, what other people said, were doing etc, number of keys to 37 Shorrold Road, the circumstances of her diary/cheque book loss/finding etc. It seems to me he's questioning the whole received version of events. That seems rather extreme to me, to say the least. It was acknowledged from Day 1 virtually that the timeline was critical (AS pp27) and their investigative focus would have been full square on the minutiae of that.

It seems to me that the first step would be to see how much common ground there is between the received version and this latest, then examine for discrepancies. Has this been covered earlier? If so, I need to do some further reading. FYI, I lived just streets away from Sturgis through this period, knew all the roads very well, the short cuts and how you'd probably drive from A to B. IIRC, Videcette, for example, says Suzy turned left (I think) into Fulham Road and not right to go to Shorrolds. How would he know this? Leaving from Whittingstall Rd, it would depend which way her car had been left parked by her colleague on return from Foskett Rd. It's highly unlikely you would carry out a three point (more like a five) turn manoeuvre in Whittingstall Road. If you were facing the wrong way, you'd simply go to the end and turn left or right as I've done myself on many, many occasions in those streets at that time. Did he check this?

Apologies if I'm raking over old ground with questions already answered definitively.
 
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  • #926
Are we now questioning all the facts that were established at the time of Suzy's disappearance? If you accept the evidence compiled by Andrew Stephen, there seems little doubt that she was going to meet a client outside 37 Shorrolds Road. What is the basis for scepticism regarding these events? There is solid, factual witness evidence she was there.

I haven't read Videcette's book although I gather from Youtube interviews I have seen/heard, that he is questioning any amount of information recorded in 1986: SL's movements; whether she turned left or right into Fulham Road, what other people said, were doing etc, number of keys to 37 Shorrold Road, the circumstances of her diary/cheque book loss/finding etc. It seems to me he's questioning the whole received version of events. That seems rather extreme to me, to say the least. It was acknowledged from Day 1 virtually that the timeline was critical (AS pp27) and their investigative focus would have been full square on the minutiae of that.

It seems to me that the first step would be to see how much common ground there is between the received version and this latest, then examine for discrepancies. Has this been covered earlier? If so, I need to do some further reading. FYI, I lived just streets away from Sturgis through this period, knew all the roads very well, the short cuts and how you'd probably drive from A to B. IIRC, Videcette, for example, says Suzy turned left (I think) into Fulham Road and not right to go to Shorrolds. How would he know this? Leaving from Whittingstall Rd, it would depend which way her car had been left parked by her colleague on return from Foskett Rd. It's highly unlikely you would carry out a three point (more like a five) turn manoeuvre in Whittingstall Road. If you were facing the wrong way, you'd simply go to the end and turn left or right as I've done myself on many, many occasions in those streets at that time. Did he check this?

Apologies if I'm raking over old ground with questions already answered definitively.
I don't think the questions have been answered properly. <modsnip: No link to support information stated as fact>
 
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  • #927
It seems a massive stretch to say

“this proves she was at POW the night before because she didn’t have a conversation about how it ended up there”


It was a office and there was a million things going on that morning.


Her boyfriend says it went missing Friday and there must be a reason he claims that.

Moo
 
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  • #928
It seems a massive stretch to say

“this proves she was at POW the night before because she didn’t have a conversation about how it ended up there”


It was a office and there was a million things going on that morning.


Her boyfriend says it went missing Friday and there must be a reason he claims that.

Moo
You'll have to excuse this old mind, its not so young, we got married in 1982, from recall a purse or in my case a wallet was something that was guarded with your life, possibly only the one credit card ( Barclaycard) possible one debit card and cash plus maybe cheque book , so to leave this over a weekend makes no sense to me, much like leaving a mobile in todays world.

ETA ,scratch debit card, it was not introduced until 87.
 
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  • #929
Are we now questioning all the facts that were established at the time of Suzy's disappearance? If you accept the evidence compiled by Andrew Stephen, there seems little doubt that she was going to meet a client outside 37 Shorrolds Road. What is the basis for scepticism regarding these events? There is solid, factual witness evidence she was there.
When you pay close attention to the original timeline, it becomes clear that a lot of the established facts aren't any such thing. This, coupled with the failure of the investigation to charge anybody, is a strong pointer to the original investigation having been seriously compromised from the outset. Following in the footsteps of its assumptions is asking to repeat the same errors.

SJL's uncharacteristic absence was noticed during the afternoon, but nobody knew where she was supposed to have gone. Colleagues had to consult her diary to find out. This said 37SR but two visits to the property including entry by Sturgis staff showed no evidence she had been there. As they had the keys to get in, which they shouldn't have had if she really went there, it's reasonable to wonder if she did.

The basis of the subsequent belief that she did is that HR said he'd seen a man and a blonde woman. He did not ID the woman as SJL. This was 100% a police snap assumption. Nobody was ever put on an identity parade in front of HR, so subsequent claims that the man he saw resembles this person or that are entirely suppositious. Having described Mr Kipper as slim and 25 to 30, he later declared a podgy 44-year-old to be a dead ringer for him, and he also made then retracted a claim that he'd seen SJL being bundled into a vehicle. Mr Kipper actually looks a lot like SJL's boss, and as the Crimewatch reconstruction shows, all the women in the Sturgis office were blonde-ish. Taken together, the sole witness of anyone at 37SR starts to look a bit flakey. It looks entirely possible that HR saw MG and one of the office women.

Ordinarily you'd expect police procedure to kick in and screen out any such c0ckup, but this did not happen. The police were notified at 18.45 and initially were concerned with 37SR and SJL's own flat. They were there at 10pm when her car was found and that then became the focus until AL was located. He was questioned until 3.30am. From 7am uniforms were making house to house inquiries in Stevenage and Shorrolds. It was no later than about 9 or 10 when the police decided to call a press conference for 2pm. At this point they had taken no statements from anyone, and certainly had not had time to work through the likely sequence of events at 37SR. Even so they went ahead and declared that SJL had gone there, even though nobody had ID'd her there. The press conference was clearly a failure, because the police told ITN that the response was disappointing. Well, it would be; if you ask for witnesses to something that didn't happen, disappointment is nailed on. The supposed independent sightings were clearly influenced by each other and included mutually contradictory details that were glossed over.

What they should have done was establish and search everywhere she might have gone, then ask for sightings anywhere. How did her car get to 123SR? If she really went to 37SR, how did she leave and where did she go? Witnesses did come forward, but where their accounts conflicted with the abduction narrative they were ignored or explained away.

To be clear, this is true of all theories. All are contradicted by some witness or another and you have to cherry pick those you want to believe because they support your theory. DV does this, I do this, writers do this, the police do this.

For bonus points the police could have looked into recently-released sex offenders. This would have eliminated JC, who had an alibi, but about 30 such offenders must have been released from Wormwood that year - where were they, and were they accounted for? This was not done. As a result, all the "evidence" against JC is stuff that surfaced literally decades later, after he had been named by the police and the press. The evidence against him from 1986? There isn't any.

<modsnip: Websleuths is primarily pro-LE. Please forego the blatant generalizations and putdowns of police>
 
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  • #930
You'll have to excuse this old mind, its not so young, we got married in 1982, from recall a purse or in my case a wallet was something that was guarded with your life, possibly only the one credit card ( Barclaycard) possible one debit card and cash plus maybe cheque book , so to leave this over a weekend makes no sense to me, much like leaving a mobile in todays world.

ETA ,scratch debit card, it was not introduced until 87.
"She was preoccupied with her missing cheque book, diary and postcard, first stopping the cheques with her bank . . ." (AS:pp28)

What else could she have done over the weekend other than leave it? The banks weren't open on Saturday then. She 'apparently' (sic) dropped them at Mossops on Friday evening(AS:pp25). They were lost, even pinched at that point. She may have tried the restaurant, she may have expressed her concern, we don't know; the record is moot.
 
  • #931
"She was preoccupied with her missing cheque book, diary and postcard, first stopping the cheques with her bank . . ." (AS:pp28)

What else could she have done over the weekend other than leave it? The banks weren't open on Saturday then. She 'apparently' (sic) dropped them at Mossops on Friday evening(AS:pp25). They were lost, even pinched at that point. She may have tried the restaurant, she may have expressed her concern, we don't know; the record is moot.
The banks weren't open but there were 24/7 lines to report loss or theft of cards and cheque books. You couldn't do anything else but you could do that.

The mystery if she lost her stuff at Mossop's on Friday is where it was until it was found outside the PoW on Sunday. How did a cheque book, postcard and diary make their way from one place to the other?
 
  • #932
Hi West Londoner.
Point taken about the means to report loss of cheque books. She may have done that.
Andrew Stephen records there was doubt over their loss. He says her stuff was "apparently" dropped at Mossops which indicates a question mark. Did they go on to the pub afterwards?
 
  • #933
You'll have to excuse this old mind, its not so young, we got married in 1982, from recall a purse or in my case a wallet was something that was guarded with your life, possibly only the one credit card ( Barclaycard) possible one debit card and cash plus maybe cheque book , so to leave this over a weekend makes no sense to me, much like leaving a mobile in todays world.

ETA ,scratch debit card, it was not introduced until 87.
We had cheque guarantee cards before debit cards, they guaranteed cheques up to £50.
 
  • #934
You'll have to excuse this old mind, its not so young, we got married in 1982, from recall a purse or in my case a wallet was something that was guarded with your life, possibly only the one credit card ( Barclaycard) possible one debit card and cash plus maybe cheque book , so to leave this over a weekend makes no sense to me, much like leaving a mobile in todays world.

ETA ,scratch debit card, it was not introduced until 87.

We had cheque guarantee cards before debit cards, they guaranteed cheques up to £50.
I remember we also had cashpoint cards which were used to withdraw money from ATMs or "cashpoints" as they were called.
However there's no mention of her losing her purse, and that's where her cards were likely to be. It was the chequebook and diary/notebook, plus a postcard which was probably stuffed inside one or the other.
 
  • #935
I thought the content of the interviews in DVs book were genuine, however a few websleuthers have cast doubt over this
 
  • #936
You'll have to excuse this old mind, its not so young, we got married in 1982, from recall a purse or in my case a wallet was something that was guarded with your life, possibly only the one credit card ( Barclaycard) possible one debit card and cash plus maybe cheque book , so to leave this over a weekend makes no sense to me, much like leaving a mobile in todays world.

ETA ,scratch debit card, it was not introduced until 87.

Ahhh....Barclaycard or Access.....Amex if you were minted.....nostalgia
 
  • #937
It’s still highly coincidental that her items were misplaced or stolen and she is then murdered.

Also if she did go off to run a personal errand it just adds to the mystery as there are no reports she ever did this type of thing in the past.

I would love to know if they looked into her personal life and the money that she was due to get. She was also trying to sell her flat as well so she was obviously looking to invest or start her own business it seems. moo
 
  • #938
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  • #939
  • #940
ETA: Many members are stating information as fact without providing links to support. IF it is fact, you MUST provide a link to support; IF it is only your opinion, you MUST make that very clear.

This discussion isn't a free-for-all where you get to say what you want and post as you please. Do your homework and post in accordance with Websleuths TOS which states:

Information stated as fact must be supported by a link to a mainstream media or law enforcement source (or other WS approved source) to substantiate the fact, otherwise the post will be removed, along with all responses to it. If the information is only your opinion, please make that clear in your post so that opinions do not become rumors attributed to Websleuths as the source.

Much of the information available to us comes from a book published in 1988 which is not available online. The author was given access to police files so the information is trustworthy. Posters are citing it as a source where applicable, but it is of course not possible to give links to a published book. The book is out of print and copies are scarce and expensive.
 
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