UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

[Terryb808]

Exactly

Unfortunately another person trying to make a name off a horrific tragedy and I completely understand why the family wanted zero to do him with and his book.

moo

You’re right, sadly there are a lot of people doing exactly the same thing. Not defending DV, but, what’s the difference between him and all the others featured in the many TV documentary’s.
I personally only started looking at this when I saw RL’s comments about how he now in later life thinks more about SJL then ever.
Given the elapsed time since SJL disappeared it’s looking increasingly like this will not be solved.

 

[Crusader21]

Given the elapsed time since SJL disappeared it’s looking increasingly like this will not be solved.

I still have a hope of her remains being recovered someday, via the 'following information from a member of the general public' line.

A death-bed confession or a relation of the killer coming forward after the murderer has themselves died, etc.

Slim but a remote possibility ....

 

[WestLondoner]

It's really the only way forward now. DV expressly said she was under the floor. We were told this was incredible and the pub couldn't be searched anyway, but apparently the police did think it credible and it was indeed possible to search it. And she's not there.

The railway embankment is a possibility, because under the floor was always dubious. It does not in fact appear to have been undisturbed, and it would be incriminating were she found there. But I tend to give the police the benefit of the doubt, and assume that if they searched under the pub floor with GP radar, they looked at the embankment with the same kit too.

This arguably leaves only the Met's JC theory, although given the issues with it, I'd still rate it as maybe 15% likely.

Someone knows.

 

[Terryb808]

It's really the only way forward now. DV expressly said she was under the floor. We were told this was incredible and the pub couldn't be searched anyway, but apparently the police did think it credible and it was indeed possible to search it. And she's not there.

The railway embankment is a possibility, because under the floor was always dubious. It does not in fact appear to have been undisturbed, and it would be incriminating were she found there. But I tend to give the police the benefit of the doubt, and assume that if they searched under the pub floor with GP radar, they looked at the embankment with the same kit too.

This arguably leaves only the Met's JC theory, although given the issues with it, I'd still rate it as maybe 15% likely.

Someone knows.

From DV's description in his book I'd say access to the area under the dining room floor is possible.
If its like the same area beneath my house its very dirty and a difficult area to work in, but you can do it.
You can use ground penetrating radar within the cellar, however, it would be incredibly difficult to use within the void.
I feel you'd need to do some careful digging within this area to be sure there's nothing there.
Looking at photos of the embankment it looks like a nightmare of a place to search, I've said in the past that trained dogs would be the best option on the embankment.
They'd give you targets to focus on and greatly increase efficiency.
I don't think this has happened.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

You’re right, sadly there are a lot of people doing exactly the same thing. Not defending DV, but, what’s the difference between him and all the others featured in the many TV documentary’s.
I personally only started looking at this when I saw RL’s comments about how he now in later life thinks more about SJL then ever.
Given the elapsed time since SJL disappeared it’s looking increasingly like this will not be solved.

The difference is that he was a senior detective and spent five years of his own time, money, effort, and brought his vast experience to uncovering what happened to SJL and reinvestigating the case. He has significant 'inside information' on the case and he also submitted evidence (that we don't know about and was not detailed in the book) to the police.

Personally speaking, I don't just dismiss that out of hand. At the very least we still aren't fully aware of what he found out so how can anyone dismiss what we don't know?

David Videcette

David Videcette is a crime fighter turned crime writer. A former Scotland Yard investigator and Metropolitan Police detective, he is the author of the DI Jake Flannagan thriller series based on real events. I can't tell you the truth, but I can tell you a story®

davidvidecette.com

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It's really the only way forward now. DV expressly said she was under the floor. We were told this was incredible and the pub couldn't be searched anyway, but apparently the police did think it credible and it was indeed possible to search it. And she's not there.

The railway embankment is a possibility, because under the floor was always dubious. It does not in fact appear to have been undisturbed, and it would be incriminating were she found there. But I tend to give the police the benefit of the doubt, and assume that if they searched under the pub floor with GP radar, they looked at the embankment with the same kit too.

This arguably leaves only the Met's JC theory, although given the issues with it, I'd still rate it as maybe 15% likely.

Someone knows.

I know the story that the PoW has been searched seems compelling but we don't know that and the police have never made any statement to suggest it. We only have a third hand anecdote allegedly from Ben the bar tender.

 

[Terryb808]

I know the story that the PoW has been searched seems compelling but we don't know that and the police have never made any statement to suggest it. We only have a third hand anecdote allegedly from Ben the bar tender.

Ben is the landlord and person DV talks about in his book.
When the PoW went into liquidation during lockdown he and the staff were kept on by the new owners.
You can only conclude that as he’s still there he must be good at his job.
I concede that he was a bit miffed about the way DV stretched the truth about the book he was writing, but I can’t see him making this all up.

 

[asyousay]

Ben is the landlord and person DV talks about in his book.
When the PoW went into liquidation during lockdown he and the staff were kept on by the new owners.
You can only conclude that as he’s still there he must be good at his job.
I concede that he was a bit miffed about the way DV stretched the truth about the book he was writing, but I can’t see him making this all up.

Yep and if people want to say it’s not real
then ring the pub yourself or go to the pub. It’s pretty simple to check out if this is legit and the only reason DV is silent is because it’s makes a mockery of his book.

 

[Eastend Eagle]

It's really the only way forward now. DV expressly said she was under the floor. We were told this was incredible and the pub couldn't be searched anyway, but apparently the police did think it credible and it was indeed possible to search it. And she's not there.

The railway embankment is a possibility, because under the floor was always dubious. It does not in fact appear to have been undisturbed, and it would be incriminating were she found there. But I tend to give the police the benefit of the doubt, and assume that if they searched under the pub floor with GP radar, they looked at the embankment with the same kit too.

This arguably leaves only the Met's JC theory, although given the issues with it, I'd still rate it as maybe 15% likely.

Someone knows.

Inside job?

 

[Crusader21]

This new you tube video is good! A good presentation of the case. Factual, unbiased and up to date. Worth a watch!

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[WestLondoner]

This new you tube video is good! A good presentation of the case. Factual, unbiased and up to date. Worth a watch!

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I LOLd at "David Videchetty"

 

[RichardKimble]

I think this case show's how a body can be spirited away, disposal was the issue, but not forgetting no CCTV back in 86 .

'Healer' who decapitated pensioner will be sentenced live on TV

Self-styled healer Jemma Mitchell has been sentenced to life with a minimum of 34 years live on television after killing and beheading her friend in a 'profoundly shocking' crime.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[WestLondoner]

So hypothetically, say you're in a big city - London, Birmingham, Manchester etc - and you've got a body to get rid of ASAFP. You need it not to be found, or at the very least not found for a very long time.

Where would you hide it?

Assume you've got access to a vehicle and your time's your own.

I'd drive to Blithfield Reservoir and drop it off the middle of the B5013 causeway into 50 feet of water. Even better, I'd drive to Loch Morar, which is 1,000 feet deep. You'd need your own boat, but there are places along the shore where it's easy enough to launch one.

It gets much trickier if you have to do this actually within the city you're in. First of all, there's usually no really deep water. The deepest in Brum is probably Edgbaston Reservoir, but it's only 40 feet deep with no means of getting to the middle. Reservoirs are maybe dodgy anyway, because they're used for drinking water and putting a body in one might be noticed when they check quality. Second, it's doing it unobserved / unrecorded that's the challenge.

 

[Terryb808]

I think this case show's how a body can be spirited away, disposal was the issue, but not forgetting no CCTV back in 86 .

'Healer' who decapitated pensioner will be sentenced live on TV

Self-styled healer Jemma Mitchell has been sentenced to life with a minimum of 34 years live on television after killing and beheading her friend in a 'profoundly shocking' crime.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Yes, remember JD's witness and the suitcase / large bag thrown into the river / canal at Gallows Bridge!

 

[Terryb808]

Yes, remember JD's witness and the suitcase / large bag thrown into the river / canal at Gallows Bridge!

When you think about this account from JD’s long lost witness the timing couldn’t be more perfect.
He said he was walking to work at 5.00am on the Thursday morning, on the Wednesday afternoon the SJL story hit the headlines big time.
If she was being held at the time the perpetrator would panic and need to take action.
I’m sure if this was correct he’d not expect to see anyone on the river / canal section at this time of the morning.
It’s a pity that its not variable because in context with the actual events it makes sense.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

When you think about this account from JD’s long lost witness the timing couldn’t be more perfect.
He said he was walking to work at 5.00am on the Thursday morning, on the Wednesday afternoon the SJL story hit the headlines big time.
If she was being held at the time the perpetrator would panic and need to take action.
I’m sure if this was correct he’d not expect to see anyone on the river / canal section at this time of the morning.
It’s a pity that its not variable because in context with the actual events it makes sense.

My only query about this is the one I've raised before, the issue of canals in general - they're closed systems, not very deep, occasionally have high visibility all the way to the bottom when it's a clear sunny day, they're regularly dredged, and importantly they don't have a rapid flow that dislodges and moves what has been dumped.

So, in general terms, pretty much where someone threw something in a canal is where it would remain until being purposefully removed for whatever reason or dredged out at some point. Now and then it would be clearly visible. If a body became exposed to the elements and water creatures in UK temperatures, it could decompose and sink into the not very deep silt (or riverbed in the case of a 'canalified' river) but all the same leave a very distinctive skeleton and probably nearby hair and nails. Sorry for being graphic. If the body was wrapped or encased in something such as a suitcase or trunk and then at some point dredged out, then I suppose a very intact skeleton and remains would be found. Maybe it would just be sent to a crushers yard and then incinerated or taken to landfill? I don't know what happens. How could we find out?

 

[infinit]

So hypothetically, say you're in a big city - London, Birmingham, Manchester etc - and you've got a body to get rid of ASAFP. You need it not to be found, or at the very least not found for a very long time.

Where would you hide it?

Assume you've got access to a vehicle and your time's your own.

I'd drive to Blithfield Reservoir and drop it off the middle of the B5013 causeway into 50 feet of water. Even better, I'd drive to Loch Morar, which is 1,000 feet deep. You'd need your own boat, but there are places along the shore where it's easy enough to launch one.

It gets much trickier if you have to do this actually within the city you're in. First of all, there's usually no really deep water. The deepest in Brum is probably Edgbaston Reservoir, but it's only 40 feet deep with no means of getting to the middle. Reservoirs are maybe dodgy anyway, because they're used for drinking water and putting a body in one might be noticed when they check quality. Second, it's doing it unobserved / unrecorded that's the challenge.

I don't think you necessarily need deep water, just something heavy to tie it down with and water that is unlikely to be disturbed e.g. not canals that are drained for maintenance now and again and deep enough that whatever isn't visible from the surface.

Personally, if I had to hide a body, I'd probably go out of the city to some sort of arable land and dig deep enough that it's unlikely to be disturbed by a plough or similar in the future.

An unrelated question - I've read a few pages, but what are the working theories? I've read the evidence on Cannan and it seems fairly compelling... particularly the DNA that she'd been in a car he'd owned. Is there any other working theories?

 

[NorthParade]

I don't think you necessarily need deep water, just something heavy to tie it down with and water that is unlikely to be disturbed e.g. not canals that are drained for maintenance now and again and deep enough that whatever isn't visible from the surface.

Personally, if I had to hide a body, I'd probably go out of the city to some sort of arable land and dig deep enough that it's unlikely to be disturbed by a plough or similar in the future.

An unrelated question - I've read a few pages, but what are the working theories? I've read the evidence on Cannan and it seems fairly compelling... particularly the DNA that she'd been in a car he'd owned. Is there any other working theories?

Post #1180 a few pages back by @WestLondoner addresses the car DNA claim as well as some others.

 

[Terryb808]

My only query about this is the one I've raised before, the issue of canals in general - they're closed systems, not very deep, occasionally have high visibility all the way to the bottom when it's a clear sunny day, they're regularly dredged, and importantly they don't have a rapid flow that dislodges and moves what has been dumped.

So, in general terms, pretty much where someone threw something in a canal is where it would remain until being purposefully removed for whatever reason or dredged out at some point. Now and then it would be clearly visible. If a body became exposed to the elements and water creatures in UK temperatures, it could decompose and sink into the not very deep silt (or riverbed in the case of a 'canalified' river) but all the same leave a very distinctive skeleton and probably nearby hair and nails. Sorry for being graphic. If the body was wrapped or encased in something such as a suitcase or trunk and then at some point dredged out, then I suppose a very intact skeleton and remains would be found. Maybe it would just be sent to a crushers yard and then incinerated or taken to landfill? I don't know what happens. How could we find out?

I researched this when JD came up with this witness. My lab contact at the river & canal trust for the area said that the canal would be dredged every 5 years.
Back then they would deposit the dredged material at a suitable location at the side of the canal. Now they remove it to be processed elsewhere.
As usual it raises questions about what might have happened if the witness account was true and the quotes that said witness travelled to JC’s trial to confirm he was the person he saw that day.
Canvas material rots at different lengths of time depending on the type of material it is. Given that the river section is deeper and the flow rate a little higher, within 5 years the case could have opened and the contents dispersed.
Like a lot of things with SJL, you can make a narrative for this, but you can’t prove it.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I researched this when JD came up with this witness. My lab contact at the river & canal trust for the area said that the canal would be dredged every 5 years.
Back then they would deposit the dredged material at a suitable location at the side of the canal. Now they remove it to be processed elsewhere.
As usual it raises questions about what might have happened if the witness account was true and the quotes that said witness travelled to JC’s trial to confirm he was the person he saw that day.
Canvas material rots at different lengths of time depending on the type of material it is. Given that the river section is deeper and the flow rate a little higher, within 5 years the case could have opened and the contents dispersed.
Like a lot of things with SJL, you can make a narrative for this, but you can’t prove it.

Thank you for this info. I remember you posted about it before but couldn't recall the detail.

Canals have such a high level of traffic and people who live permanently on boats and barges as well as canoe clubs, local walkers, nearby residents, it's hard to imagine an entire body could be tipped into a canal and never discovered. I live near a canal and often see whats been pulled out and left at the side by dredgers and usually it comprises lots of metal items - shopping trollies, bike parts (or whole bikes!), a strikingly high number of safes, and bits of construction materials mostly. They seem to do that about once a month or so in my area. I don't know if they come back later for the metal things or what they do with the other stuff that's in the canal as there's also lots of other stuff - bottles, beer cans, plastic containers, and fabric items in the canal.

It's hard to imagine a human skeleton or even just a few bones or a skull could be never noticed but maybe?