UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

[Crusader21]

Reported by the tabloids, HR's nephew recently stated that HR WAS NOT sure that it was SL he saw that Monday outside his house ....

 

[asyousay]

Reported by the tabloids, HR's nephew recently stated that HR WAS NOT sure that it was SL he saw that Monday outside his house ....

Yes a red top is always so truthful and hard for a dead man to tell his version of what he really saw.

 

[WestLondoner]

Yes a red top is always so truthful and hard for a dead man to tell his version of what he really saw.

You mean his three mutually contradictory versions of what he really saw (i.e. he doesn't know what he really saw). He never picked JC out of an ID parade, nor did he identify the woman as SJL.

 

[asyousay]

You mean his three mutually contradictory versions of what he really saw (i.e. he doesn't know what he really saw). He never picked JC out of an ID parade, nor did he identify the woman as SJL.

3 different witnesses and all around the same time say they saw Suzy outside SR. So I’m sorry I don’t believe somebody going to the Red Tops after DV got his claws into him saying suddenly his uncle said “such and such” when the man is dead and Can’t tell his side of this new story that’s being touted.

 

[WestLondoner]

3 different witnesses and all around the same time say they saw Suzy outside SR. So I’m sorry I don’t believe somebody going to the Red Tops after DV got his claws into him saying suddenly his uncle said “such and such” when the man is dead.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, to be clear. You're clearly nobody's fool, so your views carry weight. It does seem to me though that 37SR, and whatever did or did not happen there, is the major point of difference among the various ideas as to what befell SJL.

There are people who think Cannan did it, and people who don't; there are people who think SJL went to 37SR, and people who think she did not. So you can think she

1/ went to 37SR but didn't meet Cannan;
2/ went to 37SR and did meet Cannan;
3/ went elsewhere and did meet Cannan; or
4/ went elsewhere and didn't meet Cannan.

Leaving Cannan aside and taking just the question of whether she went to 37SR or not, I'm not persuaded by the evidence that she did, for two reasons.

The first is how the evidence for a visit there came into being. HR has no idea what he saw. He gave multiple, mutually-contradictory accounts for which no confirmation could be found, and mentioned only a blonde woman. The idea this was SJL originated with the police, not with anyone who saw this woman.

The house-to-house produced no confirmation of any of HR's accounts; the newspaper stories on Monday and Tuesday likewise; the press conference on Tuesday, and the further press coverage, also nothing. The only supposed confirmation came in only after the witnesses had seen one of HR's accounts on TV, which was a week later. So I wonder where'd they been for a week, why their accounts seem so heavily influenced by the TV, why they added nothing to it, whether what we actually have is two further accounts that echo, rather than confirm, one of HR's three accounts, and whether they were even thinking of the right day. The police dismissed BW's account because they thought she had the wrong day.

The second reason is the evidence that you have to dismiss if you think SJL was at 37SR. WJ cannot have been right about her car being there before 1. But she is hard to dismiss, because her bank confirmed her timing, and she thought the car didn't move.

Essentially, as both can't be correct, you have to discard either HR, or WJ. I tend to discard HR, because unlike WJ his sighting lasted seconds, whereas WJ thought she was looking at the car all day.

In dismissing HR, I then have to explain what he actually did see and failed to describe correctly. On the basis that he was wrong about almost everything, I figure he was also wrong about the time, which is supported by MG matching the Kipper photofit. This last is a matter of opinion of course, but then so is the assertion that JC matched it, so I think it's allowable. He was right about a blondish woman and right about a bloke in a suit; they just weren't SJL or A N Abductor.

I would buy 3 or 4 of my possibilities above, but not 1 or 2.

What do you reckon? What's the bit that persuades you to discard WJ rather than HR?

 

[asyousay]

I dismiss WJ as I think BW likely saw her later that afternoon. Also WJ nobody else can place the car there that early - likely car drop is after 3.30pm IMO. Then add in Suzy’s diary entry and 3 different witnesses saying they saw a Woman and a Man at SR’s. HR got confused but other witnesses also say they saw a man and woman outside ST which backs up what he saw.


I don’t know if JC did this but regardless of culprit I believed she made it to SR and showed somebody the property that lunchtime . The police obviously followed this line of enquiry as well.


My only other theory would be she was kidnapped after she left Sturgis and on the way to her car but that’s doubtful because she had enough time to put her stuff in the side door of the car.

 

[RichardKimble]

I dismiss WJ as I think BW likely saw her later that afternoon. Also WJ nobody else can place the car there that early - likely car drop is after 3.30pm IMO. Then add in Suzy’s diary entry and 3 different witnesses saying they saw a Woman and a Man at SR’s. HR got confused but other witnesses also say they saw a man and woman outside ST which backs up what he saw.


I don’t know if JC did this but regardless of culprit I believed she made it to SR and showed somebody the property that lunchtime . The police obviously followed this line of enquiry as well.


My only other theory would be she was kidnapped after she left Sturgis and on the way to her car but that’s doubtful because she had enough time to put her stuff in the side door of the car.

Bolded bit, I live out in the sticks, trying to build a picture , would London of 1986 be different from today where putting personal effects into the side pocket of the door before sitting inside would be the norm, no latest mobile model etc to be half inched not like todays London I'd venture.

 

[Terryb808]

But HR has no idea what he saw. None at all. He doesn't know if he saw a 40-something man or a 20-something man, he doesn't know if he saw a woman being bundled into a vehicle or not. Why would you believe he knows when he saw it?

3 different witnesses and all around the same time say they saw Suzy outside SR. So I’m sorry I don’t believe somebody going to the Red Tops after DV got his claws into him saying suddenly his uncle said “such and such” when the man is dead and Can’t tell his side of this new story that’s being touted.

Sadly the case is heading towards all the actual witnesses passing away and the only version you’ll ever have is the statement made to the police.
Also, I’d personally question the accuracy of anything that is given by any witness when re-interviewed over 30 years later.

 

[Terryb808]

I dismiss WJ as I think BW likely saw her later that afternoon. Also WJ nobody else can place the car there that early - likely car drop is after 3.30pm IMO. Then add in Suzy’s diary entry and 3 different witnesses saying they saw a Woman and a Man at SR’s. HR got confused but other witnesses also say they saw a man and woman outside ST which backs up what he saw.


I don’t know if JC did this but regardless of culprit I believed she made it to SR and showed somebody the property that lunchtime . The police obviously followed this line of enquiry as well.


My only other theory would be she was kidnapped after she left Sturgis and on the way to her car but that’s doubtful because she had enough time to put her stuff in the side door of the car.

IMO your theory of car jacking is spot on, however, for WJ to be correct, it needs at least two perpetrators.
That’s one to take SJL away and one to abandon her car in Stevenage Road.

Both Wittingstall Road & Stevenage Road are very quiet at appropriately 1.00pm even today. Given that even SJL didn’t know where her car was parked, the perpetrators wouldn’t either.

They would have needed to follow her in their car, stop (with her car behind them), it possible SJL would then get out to see what’s wrong.

She’s then bundled into their car and the second perpetrator takes it away to Stevenage Road.

You might say this can’t happen in broad daylight, it can and would take just a few seconds.

One witness RT said he saw several cars parallel parked in Shorrolds Road, the above scenario also works for Shorrolds Road, and would then mean HR & WJ where both correct.

This is just one way of explaining why SJL’s car ended up in Stevenage Road with her purse etc in the side pocket.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Bolded bit, I live out in the sticks, trying to build a picture , would London of 1986 be different from today where putting personal effects into the side pocket of the door before sitting inside would be the norm, no latest mobile model etc to be half inched not like todays London I'd venture.

It's only my personal experiences and observations but no, people didn't usually leave things of value or personal in the door panels or glove compartment for obvious reasons they were easy to break into.

In the door panels people kept driving maps and maybe some sweets, in the lockable glove compartment cassettes (CDs would have been a new thing circa '86), make-up, a pack of cigs, loose change.

Driving from A to B one would usually have all personal possessions plonked on a seat or down in the foot-well if feeling more cautious.

 

[WestLondoner]

I was looking at what AS has to say about these Shorrolds Road sightings over the weekend and while there's a lot of information, it muddies the waters.

One supposed witness, ND, explicitly mentions HR's account, so it's clear it influenced his own; another can't say when he saw this couple, other than that it was between 12 and 4; another, a Spanish schoolteacher, said the artist's sketch of Mr Kipper was wrong because the face should have been thinner (so another HR-influenced sighting), and doesn't mention the time.

There was a sighting of more than one white Fiesta double parked in Shorrolds. Then there are the various BMW sightings; a dark saloon had two men in it, one with a moustache.

AS also points to a couple of sightings of SJL lookalikes in Stevenage Road, including with a man in his 40s with a suntan. This is interesting because the man HR thinks he saw was both 25-30 and also 40-45 years old.

Taken together, these tend to undermine much of what we think about Shorrolds. The sightings that supposedly confirm HR's don't, really, because one 'witness' repeats it only after seeing it on TV and the other didn't know when he saw what he saw. The idea that this may have been SF and MG from the office is undermined by the schoolteacher who thought the face should have been thinner - although it is already thinner than MG's face. The sightings of two double-parked white Fiestas remind us how commonplace white Fiestas were, which calls into question whether WJ really saw the same one at StR. There are witnesses to the car being there as early as noon. And at StR, the sightings of SJL and Kipper lookalikes call into question whether there was ever a 37SR visit.

I discount any sightings 14 years after the fact completely.

 

[WiseOwl]

Daily Mirror Exclusive today:

Killer questioned over Suzy Lamplugh murder as he bids to walk free from jail

John Cannan, 68, has now served his minimum 35-year prison sentenced for the 1987 murder of newlywed Shirley Banks but has been linked to Suzy's 1986 murder for decades

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[RichardKimble]

Daily Mirror Exclusive today:

Killer questioned over Suzy Lamplugh murder as he bids to walk free from jail

John Cannan, 68, has now served his minimum 35-year prison sentenced for the 1987 murder of newlywed Shirley Banks but has been linked to Suzy's 1986 murder for decades

www.mirror.co.uk

No longer receiving end of life care ?

Cannan was gravely ill in June but has improved and it is understood he is no longer being treated on the medical wing of Full Sutton jail in East Yorkshire.

 

[WiseOwl]

No longer receiving end of life care ?

Cannan was gravely ill in June but has improved and it is understood he is no longer being treated on the medical wing of Full Sutton jail in East Yorkshire.

It doesn't appear he is recieving end-of-life care.

Ex-Scotland Yard Detective Jim Dickie said (Daily Mirror today):

The Parole Board would be taking a big risk if they clear Cannan for release back into the community.

“If he gets the opportunity to offend again he will take it. He has a horrendous profile of offending over 40 years.”

Mr Dickie said he suspects Cannan is also responsible for the unsolved murder of Bournemouth insurance clerk Sandra Court, 26, found dead in a ditch on the Avon Causeway in 1986.

Evidence linking the killer to Suzy’s murder will be included in a dossier for the Parole Board to consider.

 

[WestLondoner]

Mixed emotions.

On one hand, I feel very uncomfortable with the police declaring that someone is 'the only suspect' or 'responsible for the unsolved murder of...' when they clearly don't have the evidence to back these statements up (if they had, there would have been charges).

On the other hand, it's only Cannan we're talking about and I don't think his whole-of-life sentence should ever have been reduced. So I couldn't care less if he stays in jail.

 

[RichardKimble]

In a Mail article Suffolk Strangler Wright is being brought into the equation.

In August this year, Suzy's family told how they pleaded with police to question Suffolk Strangler Steve Wright over her suspected murder.

The 25-year-old estate agent worked alongside the serial killer on the QE2 luxury cruise liner and he is even said to have chatted her up.

But according to his ex-wife, when Suzy vanished and her disappearance hit the headlines, he denied ever knowing her.

Wright, 63, is currently serving life for murdering five women in Ipswich within a fortnight in 2006 and was arrested in July this year on suspicion of killing Victoria Hall, 17, whose naked body was found in a ditch in 1999.

Now Suzy's family are demanding he also be quizzed over her suspected murder.

Suzy vanished after leaving her London office to meet a 'Mr Kipper' for a viewing at a Fulham flat.

Killer Wright is coincidentally said to have used the word 'kipper' as slang for 'face'.

Killer, 68, will be quizzed over unsolved 1986 murder of Suzy Lamplugh

Suzy Lamplugh's suspected killer will be quizzed on new evidence allegedly linking him to her murder as part of his bid for parole.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Melquiades]

This is one of those Occam's Razor deals. Cannan did it.

- known serial killer in the area, active at the time, present at the same establishments as the victim.
- matches Cannan's MO perfectly.
- Cannan has confessed to the crime or partially confessed on multiple occasions.
- Cannan and his car match witness descriptions.
- no alibi.
- known to have used 'Mr. Kipper' as an alias.

There's no way it's anyone else. The most likely explanation is the correct one.

 

[WestLondoner]

Hi Melquiades and welcome to the thread.

The simple explanation often is the right one, but there is quite a lot of debate as to how simple a fit Cannan is.

- known serial killer in the area, active at the time, present at the same establishments as the victim.

Cannan is not a known serial killer. He's known to have committed one murder. He is not known ever to have been to Fulham or to have met SJL, which is the point on which the CPS have said the police's case founders.

- matches Cannan's MO perfectly.

Cannan had no MO. He committed one murder that we know of but we don't know how he went about it. He is known to have committed a number of rapes, but these ranged from strangers (mostly) to women he knew. We do not actually know what happened to SJL so it is not really possible to say it fits anyone's MO - in fact, there is actually no evidence of a crime having taken place.

- Cannan has confessed to the crime or partially confessed on multiple occasions.

Not really. Cannan was trying to pin it on someone else at the time. He was trying to claim the fictitous person who sold him SB's car did it. The claim by his girlfriend GP that he confessed she later withdrew. Anyway, he's a psychopath and he enjoys the attention and making the police think he's got one over on them. SJL's the only reason he's not forgotten in jail like every other murder 30 years ago.

- Cannan and his car match witness descriptions.

In 1986, he had a red Sierra. There are no descriptions of a red Sierra. The BMW some witnesses described 14 years later was not acquired until 1987.

Witness descriptions of a man seen at 37SR are highly generic and describe someone who was both 25 to 30 and 40 to 45, was both scruffy and smart, had shortish, longish hair, a thin, fattish face, and two noses, one broken and one not. Cannan was never put on an identity parade so nobody who claims to have seen any Mr Kipper has ever identified him.

- no alibi.

He did have an alibi, it's just that the police failed to check it. This isn't the same as having no alibi.

- known to have used 'Mr. Kipper' as an alias.

He isn't. It has been alleged that Kipper was his nickname in prison. Nobody has shown this to have been his nickname in 1981-1986, when he was first in prison. Cannan himself claims he has been called this only since newspapers started speculating that he was Mr Kipper. It would anyway have been profoundly stupid for him to commit crimes using an alias that led right back to him - he might as well have used his own actual name.

There's no way it's anyone else. The most likely explanation is the correct one.

Given that no credible evidence in the public domain shows Cannan ever met SJL, or had ever been to Fulham, or was in Fulham that day, there's room for quite a lot of doubt as to what the most likely explanation really is.

 

[Crusader21]

You guys may like to know JC is now featured on Britain's Most Evil Killers on Sky Crime channel ....

Britain’s Most Evil Killers

Examining some of the most dangerous and prolific murderers in the UK, uncovering what drove them to commit such heinous crimes.

www.sky.com

Check out series 7 here Most Evil Killers - Wikipedia

Basically there's nothing new and features Jim Dickie telling us that Cannon is 'Our Man'.

But as West Londoner indiates above, a little probbing and actually looking at the facts show that this may well indeed not be the case!

 

[Crusader21]

A possible very interesting thing Re JCs alibi ....

Fears killer who dumped newly-wed's body on the Quantocks could be freed

FORMER partners of a sadistic killer who murdered a newly-wed woman and dumped her body on the Quantock Hills are terrified he could hunt them down…

www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk

Cannon's former girlfriends fear he could try to track them down if he is released to extract revenge for their part in helping to convict him of his crimes.

One of them, who he sexually attacked, says he managed to find her in 1986, three days after his release from jail, even though she had married, changed her name, got a new job and moved to a different part of the country.

He phoned her and tried to assure her he was a changed man.

She contacted police, who installed a panic alarm in her home.



The bit in bold - JC was released from jail Friday 25 July 1986. SL disappeared Monday 28 July (3 days later), but was Cannon ringing this female that day!?!

A strange thing to do if John Cannon was involved SLs disappearance, abduction and murder?!