UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[asyousay]

Claim: In the police's opinion JC looks like Mr Kipper. Fact: He was never put on an ID parade, and he looks like Keanu Reeves. And also Vic Reeves.

Funny you said this as I was just looking at JC and I thought he looks like Ronnie O’Sullivan to my eyes.

The sketch could literally be millions of men to
My eyes. There isn’t something that makes the man stand out to help it.

IMO

 

[WestLondoner]

OMG - I was a jury member on one of these cases. She was mentioned loads but it wasn’t her case. That’s a blast from the past. I had completely forgotten about it until I just saw that name. Her and the company she kept were completely bonkers. The entire scandal was fascinating and to this day I have never heard anything like it. It was like some kind of a cult and so many people sucked in.



Sorry back on topic

That's really interesting. Staying off topic, one of my nerdy (my other) nerdy interests is military history and especially the Napoleonic era - Austerlitz, Retreat from Moscow, Waterloo, all that. So about 25 years, this chap published a book called "Waterloo: the German Victory". The drift was that British writers gave insufficient credit for this victory to "Germans", who had really won it.

Other historians then started to pick this chap's rather eccentric claims apart. What historians failed to give allied troops credit? He couldn't name any. Sources he cited did not say what he had said. He had changed the times of conversations, and the subject of strategy meetings, to make British Waterloo commanders look bad and "German" ones good. Prussian mistakes were never mentioned. And so on.

It was all polite academic debate, but this chap simply exploded. Everyone was a liar, everyone was mad, they were all clinically insane and they were all kiddy-fiddlers. It was surreal - on forums where people discussed the movements of the 2/44th East Essex regiment, and did the Dutch militia fight in two rank lines or three, you've got this foaming crazy spouting all this bile. He was sued for libel and lost to the tune of £30,000.

While all this weird stuff was going on, his mother had to go into care and her house had to be sold. This guy accused his brother, the police, social services, Jimmy Savile, and celebrity paedophiles of conspiring to steal his mother's house and split the money. One of his computers in her house was found to contain 7,000 paedophile images i.e. he had been accusing other people of having his own inclinations! He did three years, was let out, and absconded the day of an extradition hearing. While he went missing he stayed with one Belinda McKenzie, who shortly after was co-defendant with...Sabine McNeill!

The stuff she was spouting was amazingly similar to the stuff he was spouting, except he got sectioned for life (having called other people mad). Despite this some people still value his books!

OK digression over, back to the plot!

 

[Crusader21]

Or do they?

For me it's incredible that two obviously very knowledgeable and passionate posters here, can be at such polar opposites on their stance in this case. But I guess such is life ....

I personally am thankful for the work of the mods in moderating this discussion and keeping I open, its been very informative and a fascinating insight.

It may have been easier just to pull the entire thread, so credit where it is due!

More digression, but yes indeed, back to the plot!

 

[Whitehall 1212]

No such similar abductions since?!

For example, the case of Michael Sams kidnapping an estate agent even prompted a book ...

Sams used the estate agent/house for sale ploy, but so have others besides JC and MS.

Sams was a kidnapper for ransom. He took victims to his warehouse in Nottinghamshire. It's a long way from Fulham!

No ransom demand was received in the case of SJL.

Not similar.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Are you suggesting the crime scene was the PoW?

Err.....no. Maybe my post was a little too cryptic. It's something for you to solve

 

[Crusader21]

Sams was a kidnapper for ransom. He took victims to his warehouse in Nottinghamshire. It's a long way from Fulham!

To 'return serve', JC committed crimes himself, 'a long way from Fulham' ...

 

[Whitehall 1212]

To 'return serve', JC committed crimes himself, 'a long way from Fulham' ...

You miss the point - 15:0

Sams was kidnapper for ransom who took his victims to his warehouse in Newark, Nottinghamshire. It's a long way from Fulham...... and Tipperary also. Locality to Newark, but far enough away was a trade off with the risk of being stopped with a kidnap victim, being recognised by someone and by police systems identifying him as a good suspect based on the locality of offence v place of residence v deposition site. Sams is organised, clever and cunning....his voice recording was what nailed him, when his ex-wife recognised it on Crimewatch.

No ransom was received.

JC's MO was very different, he was a disorganised offender, who attacked women for the purpose of violent control, which included abduction, rape and murder. This type of offence lent itself to committing offences in multiple locations, depending on JC's means of transport and where he was living or travelling to.

The MO/motive/victim demographic/offence locations need to be taken as a whole, not the individual elements, so that the picture can be painted.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

The relationship was in 1982. So she had a relationship with him while he was in jail?

Incorrect

This relates to JC meeting SJL, whilst he was in the pre-release hostel at Wormwood Scrubs.

SJL spoke of a businessman from Bristol she had met, who always had to leave early.

It's important to understand the facts of the case, even if they are circumstantial!

 

[WestLondoner]

Some sort of abduction is clearly a strong possibility, just not by JC unless there is far more evidence than we've heard.

The weirdest thing for me about the pre-planned abduction scenario though is SJL's car. The car is a smoking gun. Wherever you lure her to be abducted during a working day, she's going to be in her car. Anywhere that car's seen or found is going to attract attention later (nobody mentions any white Fiesta in SR IIRC). And you have no idea how soon any hue and cry will be raised. For all the abductor knows, she's got a meeting at 1.15 and that's when she'll be followed and missed.

So you absolutely have to get rid of the car, and as an abductor you are aware of this risk upfront. So why would you drive it around SJL's everyday patch and dump it on her turf, risking recognition? If you swap the number plates for those of another white Fiesta, you disguise it and instantly buy yourself some time. You can now drive it and her wherever you like without anyone clocking that it's hers. If you've got her in an empty property somewhere, you go there, then you drive her car across town to the east end, abandon it in a multi-storey car park and get the tube back to your safe house. It'll be weeks before the car's noticed. Even then the car park will write to the owner of the real car who will say My car is here, thanks.

A planned abduction offers the perp the chance to think all this through and to cover his tracks. The car should have vanished as well as the victim because then there is even less to go on.

 

[WestLondoner]

Incorrect

This relates to JC meeting SJL, whilst he was in the pre-release hostel at Wormwood Scrubs.

SJL spoke of a businessman from Bristol she had met, who always had to leave early.

It's important to understand the facts of the case, even if they are circumstantial!

Source?

 

[WestLondoner]

No such similar abductions since?!

For example, the case of Michael Sams kidnapping an estate agent, even prompted a book! ...

Around 2,500 of the 160,000+ people who go missing every year in the UK never turn up.

The Murder Accountability Project in the USA thinks there are as many as 4,000 active serial killers in the States. They don't get found because their victims do not.

 

[Pinkizzy]

Incorrect

This relates to JC meeting SJL, whilst he was in the pre-release hostel at Wormwood Scrubs.

SJL spoke of a businessman from Bristol she had met, who always had to leave early.

It's important to understand the facts of the case, even if they are circumstantial!

JC doesn't come from Bristol and he moved there to live with his solicitor girlfriend in 1986

 

[Terryb808]

@Terryb808. You said that, not me! You're entitled to your opinion.

Are you familiar with the Rachel Nickell case and in particular the investigation into Colin Stagg's suspected involvement?

Actually you said the profiler must have been at fault, it’s not unreasonable to conclude that this means it’s his fault.
It’s it’s not his fault, who’s responsible for convicting a innocent man?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

That's interesting. So to take that a step further, anyone could say pubically that (someone like) Levi Bellfield murdered SL.

As I say interesting, and risk-free if somewhat reckless ....

I wouldn't bank on it being risk free. There are six defences to a claim for defamation. The fact that someone is known as baddun' already aint one of them.

Clever lawyers can spin things with aplomb and they will probably claim that name of JC is not known to many people in society generally, however SL is. They'll claim that a statement that he killed SJL (which has not been said by the way) defames him as the offender in a notorious case and thereby:

"tends to lower him in the estimation of right-thinking member of society generally"

I'd never take legal advice from some anonymous fella off tinternet.....that includes advice from me.....just don't go saying nasty made up things about folk.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Just imagine if you'd found someone's property and arranged for them to collect it. In the meantime they went missing and all of a sudden fingers were being pointed and people were whispering in hushed tones......not very nice.

CV has not been arrested, charged and least of all found guilty of any involvement.

There are no lawful grounds to search the PoW. It would be a breath of fresh air if folk understood this.

But as I keep saying, the PoW is quite literally the only solid location we know SJL was going to. It doesn’t necessarily indicate CV. However, his involvement in her last day was huge - holding her (possibly salacious) diary and belongings, phoning the bank, speaking to SJL on the phone several times or at the very least twice, arranging for her to collect her items, so he says, is a LOT and serious stuff.

Then there’s the added confusing stories of the alleged visit to him from a fake police officer and the subsequent dispute as to whether he handed two real officers a piece of paper / note that then got ‘lost’. Plus he changed his own versions of events AND was never rigorously focussed on in the first place as a possible person of interest.

Not to mention SJL heading to the PoW could be meaningful in many other ways as anybody - staff, customer, passerby on foot or vehicle, could have been there / in the vicinity who either deliberately targeted her, made a random predatory abduction, or simply caused her death by accident or misadventure and covered it up.

It looks like we’ll never know as in a holistic sense NONE of anything to do with the PoW, the staff, anyone in the vicinity, nor the area itself was included for a forensic evaluation.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

JC doesn't come from Bristol and he moved there to live with his solicitor girlfriend in 1986

Did I say he did?

I know you'll find I didn't. Please read my post again.

 

[asyousay]

Some sort of abduction is clearly a strong possibility, just not by JC unless there is far more evidence than we've heard.

The weirdest thing for me about the pre-planned abduction scenario though is SJL's car. The car is a smoking gun. Wherever you lure her to be abducted during a working day, she's going to be in her car. Anywhere that car's seen or found is going to attract attention later (nobody mentions any white Fiesta in SR IIRC). And you have no idea how soon any hue and cry will be raised. For all the abductor knows, she's got a meeting at 1.15 and that's when she'll be followed and missed.

So you absolutely have to get rid of the car, and as an abductor you are aware of this risk upfront. So why would you drive it around SJL's everyday patch and dump it on her turf, risking recognition? If you swap the number plates for those of another white Fiesta, you disguise it and instantly buy yourself some time. You can now drive it and her wherever you like without anyone clocking that it's hers. If you've got her in an empty property somewhere, you go there, then you drive her car across town to the east end, abandon it in a multi-storey car park and get the tube back to your safe house. It'll be weeks before the car's noticed. Even then the car park will write to the owner of the real car who will say My car is here, thanks.

A planned abduction offers the perp the chance to think all this through and to cover his tracks. The car should have vanished as well as the victim because then there is even less to go on.

How many abductors carry around fake License plates with them?


The abductee left nothing in the car to trace them so ditching it obviously worked.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

To be honest, it was DV who set up this man as a suspect, as he is not and was never considered a suspect in the case at all. AS calls him patently honest and straightforward.

DV has set up someone who in reality it would be very easy to find, and had his narrative gained traction in the media the individual could have found himself hounded by the tabloid media. I admit I am now curious as to his motives, does he genuinely believe his assumptions?

Are we certain it is him DV is framing tho? I mean it leans towards but as far as I know he has given the name to the police but we haven’t got confirmation.

 

[asyousay]

It’s odd how DV throws CV under the bus but doesn’t mention the wife In the plot.


A pub isn’t that large of a space , you have workers around and his wife. Yet he managed on a Monday afternoon to kill somebody/ get rid of the body and ditch a car all while acting normal and yet not one person got suspicious and reported him as acting strange.


He did this under the nose of his wife as well - she loved him so much he was able to murder somebody and all she did was divorce him.


It’s farcical to me that he managed to do all this without anybody he came into contact with noticing he was acting odd including trained detectives. He must have one hell of a poker face my friend.


ETA - not forgetting he had the police on his doorstep that night or following day.


IMO

 

[Cluesleuth]

Some sort of abduction is clearly a strong possibility, just not by JC unless there is far more evidence than we've heard.

The weirdest thing for me about the pre-planned abduction scenario though is SJL's car. The car is a smoking gun. Wherever you lure her to be abducted during a working day, she's going to be in her car. Anywhere that car's seen or found is going to attract attention later (nobody mentions any white Fiesta in SR IIRC). And you have no idea how soon any hue and cry will be raised. For all the abductor knows, she's got a meeting at 1.15 and that's when she'll be followed and missed.

So you absolutely have to get rid of the car, and as an abductor you are aware of this risk upfront. So why would you drive it around SJL's everyday patch and dump it on her turf, risking recognition? If you swap the number plates for those of another white Fiesta, you disguise it and instantly buy yourself some time. You can now drive it and her wherever you like without anyone clocking that it's hers. If you've got her in an empty property somewhere, you go there, then you drive her car across town to the east end, abandon it in a multi-storey car park and get the tube back to your safe house. It'll be weeks before the car's noticed. Even then the car park will write to the owner of the real car who will say My car is here, thanks.

A planned abduction offers the perp the chance to think all this through and to cover his tracks. The car should have vanished as well as the victim because then there is even less to go on.

Riverside Gardens Apartments on Stevenage Rd has Secure underground parking it has vehicle access both sides of the bollards on Stevenage rd it suits a lure and abduction opportunity