UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[Cluesleuth]

I smell a red herring - Kelvedon is between Sturgis and Shorrolds so it would appear to support a visit to Shorrolds; but if the abduction had already happened, why is SJL still heading towards Shorrolds? There is no reason to go there.

If this is another of those 14-years-later accounts, the obvious challenge is how does the witness remember the date and time, and why did he take 14 years to come forward with it?

It also undermines the idea that this was anyone SJL knew. If someone she knew and trusted inveigled his way into her car, why's she struggling with him at the steering wheel within two streets? Why no reports of her white Fiesta in Shorrolds? How did he get to Shorrolds and where is his car?

I think you may have misread it says she was driving away from Shorrolds

 

[asyousay]

I believe so. I'd need to check AS to be sure. If not outright closed it was certainly scaled back.

Thanks - I was just about Learning to hold my head up in 1987.

Is this a normal time frame for a case to be slowed down/closed as that must of been heartbreaking for the family?

 

[WestLondoner]

I think you may have misread it says she was driving away from Shorrolds

Fair enough, but reliability aside, there being a struggle argues against this being anyone she knew, right? Plus, someone who's conned his way into her car could surely get her to drive anywhere within reason by saying 'can we go to X Road - I'd like your rough view of what I might get for this place I have there that I'm selling - I haven't instructed anyone yet'. And then he takes her to his lair. He only needs to struggle with her, surely, at the point where they're clearly not going to see a house.

 

[asyousay]

But it’s another witness who places her at SR which is the point. Multiple people placing her where she wrote she would be.

That seems pretty straight forward to me

imo

 

[WestLondoner]

Thanks - I was just about Learning to hold my head up in 1987.

Is this a normal time frame for a case to be slowed down/closed as that must of been heartbreaking for the family?

It was the resource cost, I think. You can see the police's issue - "I've got 40 officers working on this case, and as a result, other crimes are not getting enough attention. This is obviously the most serious of crimes, but unless there's a realistic prospect of success, at some stage I have to redeploy these staff to cases where there's a prospect of doing some good." Pretty heartbreaking to have to do, but you can see why it would be necessary.

 

[asyousay]

It was the resource cost, I think. You can see the police's issue - "I've got 40 officers working on this case, and as a result, other crimes are not getting enough attention. This is obviously the most serious of crimes, but unless there's a realistic prospect of success, at some stage I have to redeploy these staff to cases where there's a prospect of doing some good." Pretty heartbreaking to have to do, but you can see why it would be necessary.

Yes logically it makes sense but when it’s your loved one it must be a awful blow. It must feel like they are giving up in a sense.

moo

 

[Crusader21]

But it’s another witness who places her at SR which is the point. Multiple people placing her where she wrote she would be.

That seems pretty straight forward to me

imo

Not nescessarily. (According to the book which reported on CW July 2000), the van driver places a female struggling with a male whilst driving a white fiesta in Kelvedon Road (heading towards Fulham Rd).

This male passenger may have entered her car as she drove off from Sturgis. They may never have went anywhere near Shorrolds Rd.

 

[WestLondoner]

But it’s another witness who places her at SR which is the point. Multiple people placing her where she wrote she would be.

That seems pretty straight forward to me

imo

Agree, no disagreement there (provided the witness is reliable, obvs). If it wasn't the PoW errand, then she was abducted.

It's just that I've not seen anything that persuades me it was JC. It could have been, sure, but it could also have been any of the sex offenders released recently from the Scrubs, or any of the sex offenders who lived nearby and who were only later recognised as such.

From the conversations DV relates with JD, none of these people were considered, in 1986 or later. DV asks him who was on the suspect matrix, and JD says that in 1986, there wasn't one. The 1986 inquiry investigated everyone they could identify that SJL knew and who was in Fulham that day. They eliminated them all leaving nobody. They did not consider recently released sex offenders (or relief landlords in Putney for that matter). In 2000 JD came along, added JC to the mix, re-eliminated all the same people, but couldn't eliminate JC. Therefore JC did it, goes the thinking. This is what DV reports JD as saying - it's not supposition.

He could actually be right, but why you'd not search everywhere she was headed - and two witnesses said she was going to the PoW - I simply can't fathom.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Fair enough, but reliability aside, there being a struggle argues against this being anyone she knew, right? Plus, someone who's conned his way into her car could surely get her to drive anywhere within reason by saying 'can we go to X Road - I'd like your rough view of what I might get for this place I have there that I'm selling - I haven't instructed anyone yet'. And then he takes her to his lair. He only needs to struggle with her, surely, at the point where they're clearly not going to see a house.

It is somewhat plausible that SJL may have been secretly taking someone to view a different property or had been persuaded to drive ’Mr Kipper’ to a different location. In that case, it would be a premeditated abduction and the abductor would have a plan of where to take her. Were she to be at the wheel, I can’t see what would cause a struggle unless it was at the point the abductor suggested to take a direction she knew or felt was odd or incorrect, leading to a disused or derelict premises or suchlike. In which case that’s crunch time ~ right there she would know something‘s afoot and the abductor would have to overpower her immediately.

What‘s the chances of overpowering someone whilst they’re driving and taking over control of the car? Do we know any examples where this has happened? I imagine it would require the use of a gun.

 

[Taskforce88]

"In 2007, a criminologist who had corresponded with Cannan revealed that the police reinvestigations of 2000–2002 had discovered DNA evidence in a car previously owned by Cannan that showed Lamplugh had previously been inside the vehicle"

"Although these tests indicated Lamplugh had been in the car, as well as Cannan, the Crown Prosecution Service felt there was insufficient evidence to prove that they had been in the vehicle at the same time, meaning charges were unable to be brought against Cannan for her murder" Berry-Dee & Odell 2007, pp. 346–347. via Wikipedia

Interesting. First I have heard of this.

 

[asyousay]

Talking of cars I wonder if this has been run yet

DNA found in missing estate agent Suzy Lamplugh's car 'could belong to killer'

Estate agent Suzy Lamplugh, 25, vanished when she went to show a client who had given the name Kipper around a house in Fulham, South West London and her body has never been found

www.mirror.co.uk

I was under the impression that they had found no stray prints.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Where were the relief managers of the pub (CV and wife) residing? Were they living at the pub or renting nearby / living in London?

I wonder how much (drunken) gossip SJL was the possible victim of in that pub? We know she was well liked and popular but there are always some sick people who have evil motivations to those who shine brightly and appear to have it all - including jealous other women, predatory men, aggrieved people. When one works in high value property sales and is having a few casual / overlapping relationships, the propensity to have attracted someone with vengeance in mind OR a deadly predator is so very high.

To my mind, it’s obviously someone who already knew her or had come to know of her. If something happened at the pub premises then it’s been a quick and shocking event, probably unplanned and chaotic. If it’s someone she met at her car to drive somewhere else or who she met at SR and they asked to see a different location, it’s still someone local who knew her well enough to plan it all out and they likely didn’t drive far.

 

[WestLondoner]

"In 2007, a criminologist who had corresponded with Cannan revealed that the police reinvestigations of 2000–2002 had discovered DNA evidence in a car previously owned by Cannan that showed Lamplugh had previously been inside the vehicle"

"Although these tests indicated Lamplugh had been in the car, as well as Cannan, the Crown Prosecution Service felt there was insufficient evidence to prove that they had been in the vehicle at the same time, meaning charges were unable to be brought against Cannan for her murder" Berry-Dee & Odell 2007, pp. 346–347. via Wikipedia

Interesting. First I have heard of this.

Hi there and welcome.

The source is incorrect, I think. Berry-Dee is not great. What happened was that JC's co-owned red Sierra was traced to a scrapyard in 2000 and forensicated, with the result that material (probably a hair) was found with something like a 60% match to SJL.

The trouble with a 60% match is that it isn't one. You and I could easily be another 60% match. The idea that the CPS would dismiss this simply because they can't prove the DNA got there when JC co-owned the car strikes me as highly implausible. If the defence were to argue that SJL might, by amazing coincidence, just happen to have been a passenger in the car before JC owned it, a jury would split their sides.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Talking of cars I wonder if this has been run yet

DNA found in missing estate agent Suzy Lamplugh's car 'could belong to killer'

Estate agent Suzy Lamplugh, 25, vanished when she went to show a client who had given the name Kipper around a house in Fulham, South West London and her body has never been found

www.mirror.co.uk

I was under the impression that they had found no stray prints.

What did the police do with the car? At the time? How forensically did they examine it? Why didn’t they keep a hold of it?

 

[Taskforce88]

Hi there and welcome.

The source is incorrect, I think. Berry-Dee is not great. What happened was that JC's co-owned red Sierra was traced to a scrapyard in 2000 and forensicated, with the result that material (probably a hair) was found with something like a 60% match to SJL.

The trouble with a 60% match is that it isn't one. You and I could easily be another 60% match. The idea that the CPS would dismiss this simply because they can't prove the DNA got there when JC co-owned the car strikes me as highly implausible. If the defence were to argue that SJL might, by amazing coincidence, just happen to have been a passenger in the car before JC owned it, a jury would split their sides.

Cheers. Yep, interesting point.

 

[Taskforce88]

I understand Norton Barracks site was never fully searched due to a new housing complex being built on the former army base?

 

[WestLondoner]

It is somewhat plausible that SJL may have been secretly taking someone to view a different property or had been persuaded to drive ’Mr Kipper’ to a different location. In that case, it would be a premeditated abduction and the abductor would have a plan of where to take her. Were she to be at the wheel, I can’t see what would cause a struggle unless it was at the point the abductor suggested to take a direction she knew or felt was odd or incorrect, leading to a disused or derelict premises or suchlike. In which case that’s crunch time ~ right there she would know something‘s afoot and the abductor would have to overpower her immediately.

What‘s the chances of overpowering someone whilst they’re driving and taking over control of the car? Do we know any examples where this has happened? I imagine it would require the use of a gun.

Agree it doesn't stack up. As we've both noted, why would there be a fight for the steering wheel when the abductor could simply direct her to another house? It's pure Hollywood.

Your gun theory is far more likely - and JC did later own a replica gun - but if the abductor has a gun, there doesn't need to be a struggle for the wheel in the first place. He just points it at her, and he needn't do that until he's directing her into waste land or an industrial estate or something and she becomes alarmed.

The Penny Bell case is interesting - she too seems to have gone to keep an appointment with someone unknown but whom she allowed into her car and who then stabbed her 50+ times.

 

[WestLondoner]

Talking of cars I wonder if this has been run yet

DNA found in missing estate agent Suzy Lamplugh's car 'could belong to killer'

Estate agent Suzy Lamplugh, 25, vanished when she went to show a client who had given the name Kipper around a house in Fulham, South West London and her body has never been found

www.mirror.co.uk

I was under the impression that they had found no stray prints.

I'm sure your impression's right. Not only that, but the car hadn't been wiped either, i.e. there were plenty of prints none of them stray. So the driver either wore gloves or was someone whose prints were not out of place in her car.

 

[asyousay]

Where were the relief managers of the pub (CV and wife) residing? Were they living at the pub or renting nearby / living in London?

I wonder how much (drunken) gossip SJL was the possible victim of in that pub? We know she was well liked and popular but there are always some sick people who have evil motivations to those who shine brightly and appear to have it all - including jealous other women, predatory men, aggrieved people. When one works in high value property sales and is having a few casual / overlapping relationships, the propensity to have attracted someone with vengeance in mind OR a deadly predator is so very high.

To my mind, it’s obviously someone who already knew her or had come to know of her. If something happened at the pub premises then it’s been a quick and shocking event, probably unplanned and chaotic. If it’s someone she met at her car to drive somewhere else or who she met at SR and they asked to see a different location, it’s still someone local who knew her well enough to plan it all out and they likely didn’t drive far.

The Pub they would of lived in , that’s why they liked married couples I think. It made life easier for all involved.

 

[WestLondoner]

I understand Norton Barracks site was never fully searched due to a new housing complex being built on the former army base?

That is correct. You'd think digging foundations and putting in utilities would stand a good chance of surfacing any hidden bodies, but be that as it may the site has not been fully searched.