UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #761
Amazing that back in those days people must have been much easier to find in terms of phone numbers than today where people hardly use landlines.

SJL didn't seem to be concerned about her missing diary over the weekend, which was a busy one. Was that because she was so busy so no time to call people? She was at work on Saturday and you'd expect if she was aware it had gone missing, given it was literally the next morning after it walked, she would have been calling round from her work phone. If it was that important to her?

It's one of those things about this case that just doesn't make sense to me. If her stuff was so important, and it must have been regardless if you believe in the POW theory or not (I don't find it that convincing in the sense that she was harmed there, but for definite, it was somewhere she was planning to go, which is important), why was there no apparent concern over the weekend about it? It does suggest losing it on Sunday...doesn't mean she was present at the POW then. I am not very convinced by the phone box theory either so what else could have happened?

Whenever it was that SJL's property went missing, I don't think she was aware until the bank telephoned on Monday morning (28th July) at work.

OR

She was aware but was not concerned as though it was an expected occurrence.

I think it fair to say that SJL's weekend was already mapped out. She was working on Saturday and being picked up on Saturday evening for the overnighter party in Surrey and straight onto Worthing the following day and then back to her parents in the evening.

She was engrossed with her main group of friends all weekend so would have been 'in the moment'.

What needs exploring is how the property came to be on the doorstep of the PoW. To me this does not indicate that they were there by chance but by being deliberately placed there, in the knowledge that the cheque book would be the route to their return to SJL.

The question is why would someone want them and why would they want to return them?

I have ideas but I don't want to plant suggestions. I'm keen to know others thoughts.
 
  • #762
Yes, and what's more, we knew a lot of numbers off by heart because we had to physically dial them rather than just scroll to a name and press a button. You didn't need to dial an area code if it was a local call, and if it wasn't you could easily look it up if necessary. Now the 5 digit prefixes for mobile numbers are as random as the rest and we rely on our devices to store the numbers. I doubt many people keep written notes of numbers.

People have asked me for my mobile and I have had to look it up as I never dial it lol

I also couldn't remember the numbers for family /close mates since i just press a button on my phone to call them.

I can remember my gran's land line though that she's had since I was a kid!
 
  • #763
AL says he thought they were stolen on the Friday night Im intriqued by this what would make him think that they had been stolen rather than lost?

<snip for brevity>
I reckon AL's thought process went something like this:
  • Stuff was found at the PoW
  • SJL and AL didn't use the PoW
  • They did go to Mossops, next door
  • They were there on Friday
  • Ergo, the only way SJL's stuff gets to that area is from Mossops, on Friday.
- which would be a completely logical accounting for the diary's whereabouts based on what he knows. What he may not have known is quite what a player SJL was, and hence that maybe she went to the PoW knowing there was nil risk of running into AL there.
 
  • #764
People have asked me for my mobile and I have had to look it up as I never dial it lol

I also couldn't remember the numbers for family /close mates since i just press a button on my phone to call them.

I can remember my gran's land line though that she's had since I was a kid!

I can still remember my Nan's and she's been gone over 16 years. Memory is a funny old thing.
 
  • #765
Well also the pub was close to her home so rather than faff around wasting time in traffic driving there on her lunch hour she could have just gone there on her way home. Pubs open late.

I don't buy the she was playing tennis thing. It's from an interview with DL her mum, DL was not a reliable narrator about SJL's life, and no one came forward to confirm plans that she was going to meet them that evening. You would go to wait to see if she showed up. I think DV is clutching onto that to try to boost his hypothesis that she could not have gone to the pub later that evening (on her way home from this alleged tennis match to a pub that opened til 11 pm...)
Yes, there's some selectivity there. DL was generally not a helpful influence on the investigation, but DV overlooks this when it's helpful to his theory, which is having it both ways.
 
  • #766
Yes, there's some selectivity there. DL was generally not a helpful influence on the investigation, but DV overlooks this when it's helpful to his theory, which is having it both ways.
AS kind of pulls her to pieces a bit. She was a grieving desperate mum, so it's hard not to empathize with her, but she sure did make it harder for the investigation. Getting Uri Geller involved was a highlight (lowlight maybe).

It must be so hard to realize that your adored kid is not the angel you thought she was, and this is being played out in public when she's been abducted, murdered and no leads. Reminds me of the Claudia Lawrence case in that way.
 
  • #767
You can search old copies of the Fulham Chronicle (Sturgis property adverts) on this site -

 
  • #768
Whenever it was that SJL's property went missing, I don't think she was aware until the bank telephoned on Monday morning (28th July) at work.

OR

She was aware but was not concerned as though it was an expected occurrence.

I think it fair to say that SJL's weekend was already mapped out. She was working on Saturday and being picked up on Saturday evening for the overnighter party in Surrey and straight onto Worthing the following day and then back to her parents in the evening.

She was engrossed with her main group of friends all weekend so would have been 'in the moment'.

What needs exploring is how the property came to be on the doorstep of the PoW. To me this does not indicate that they were there by chance but by being deliberately placed there, in the knowledge that the cheque book would be the route to their return to SJL.

The question is why would someone want them and why would they want to return them?

I have ideas but I don't want to plant suggestions. I'm keen to know others thoughts.
It looks like SJL was having an affair with a married man and the wife wanted to bait her with the chequebook outside PoW and teach her a lesson
 
  • #769
Getting Uri Geller involved was a highlight (lowlight maybe).

Only a highlight if you are short of spoons!

Reminds me of the Claudia Lawrence case in that way.

Significant similarities between SJL and CL, in terms or secretiveness and compartmentalisation in their lives, particularly with sexual relationships.

It goes to show that solving disappearances needs the police to fully understand all aspects of the mispers life in order to identify their mental state and people who may have wished them harm, and why.

DL's reported conduct by AS, which was evidenced, showed that DL wanted to control the narrative of family life and particularly how they, 'the family' were viewed by family/friends and the wider outside world, both before and after SJL went missing.

The parents lack of understanding/denial of the real SJL, because she could not be all of her true self, may have had a bearing on her falling victim and also in the openess of the investigation and what was shared with the Lamplugh's and what they could have told the police if things had been open, honest and non-judgemental.
 
  • #770
From a blog I was reading. So her father was concerned and she was also trying to sell her property as well.


“Whilst at the party Suzy talks to friends about a large commission she’s due, about 3,000GBP and mentions that she’s going to buy a property in a joint deal with someone, her father later adds that Suzy was looking at property that seemed to be beyond her means (Documentary on line: The Man Who Killed Suzy Lamplugh)”
 
  • #771
I reckon AL's thought process went something like this:
  • Stuff was found at the PoW
  • SJL and AL didn't use the PoW
  • They did go to Mossops, next door
  • They were there on Friday
  • Ergo, the only way SJL's stuff gets to that area is from Mossops, on Friday.
- which would be a completely logical accounting for the diary's whereabouts based on what he knows. What he may not have known is quite what a player SJL was, and hence that maybe she went to the PoW knowing there was nil risk of running into AL there.
I wonder if there were any pages missing in the diary, and its a detail that police have chosen not to reveal
 
Last edited:
  • #772
I wonder if there were any pages missing in the diary, and its a detail that police have chosen to reveal

Or information that was in the diary, postcard or cheque book which may have been for the benefit of/of particular interest to a third party......who then dutifully returned the 'lost' items via the PoW, as well as a telephone message left with a telephone number for SJL to contact.
 
  • #773
I rather doubt there was anything "salacious" in the diary she carried around in her bag. That kind of diary would be more likely kept at home. A notebook containing phone numbers, addresses and aides memoires is more likely, and I would have been quite keen to get that back for reasons of convenience, but more worried about the chequebook. Once the bank had been notified it would have become less urgent. The postcard was probably slipped inside the notebook; perhaps the chequebook was too.
 
  • #774
Very true athough it's wise practice to have backup settings and to enable a restoration of contacts, calendar, SMS and chats if the device is lost or corrupted.
Yes, but what I meant was that in 1986 most people would have kept and/or carried a written list of phone numbers, be it in a notebook, diary or Filofax type of thing. Actually I would have expected someone like SL to have something like a Filofax.
 
  • #775
It looks like SJL was having an affair with a married man and the wife wanted to bait her with the chequebook outside PoW and teach her a lesson

If someone stole it for the content they would know from the entries where she had been on a certain date previously and more importantly by looking at future dates in the diary they would know where she planned to be in the future.
Valuable information for a stalker or an abductor.
By then discarding the items for them to be found by a person totally unrelated to the person who had taken them it deflects any attention to the thief and the purpose for which the information would now be used.

I think this should be a consideration when looking at the person who found the items because of the severity of the crime it would ultimately bring him under suspicion. Which may be just what the thief's actions intended it to do.
MOO
 
Last edited:
  • #776
  • #777
Actually I would have expected someone like SL to have something like a Filofax.

A perfectly credible thought.....being the mid 1980's when no self- respecting young professional would be without one.

However, SLP was quite careful with her money, would she have paid 'filofax' inflated insert prices?

Maybe SJL did have a ring binder personal organiser (Filofax or a variation).

Maybe the 'diary' was a personal organiser, just not described as such.

Maybe the 'diary' was in addition to SJL's personal organiser and contained details of contacts and appointments from another part of her life.

We assume what the 'diary' was. Maybe we are wrong in what we understand by 'diary'.

If a police officer described the diary as 'salacious', but it didn't contain chapter and verse of SJL's experiences, what other information may deem it to be so described?
 
  • #778
Let's hear @Whitehall 1212 account of SJLs final day on this earth

I've provided my thoughts on where I think she went and what happened a number of times including a post yesterday.

I base my thoughts on what is the most likely and realistic scenario based on what we know and how offenders who abduct young females, other than for ransom behave.

I also weigh up the strengths and weaknesses of each witness, in terms of their information, its detail, when it was first provided, in what circumstances and any outside influences.

Because of the confusing timelines and locations, not all the witnesses can be correct in what they saw and when.

Based on my reasons to significantly doubt some of the witness testimony I have ruled it out as being accurate. This has helped to provide me with my thoughts on what happened within a logical timeline.

The matter of how the property was 'lost' and how it came to find its way to the PoW is the one thing that I would need to clarify to my satisfaction.

I don't for one minute think that SJL met her doom at the PoW or by the hand of anyone there, but the property could be the key to indentifying an altogether darker motive for SJL's disappearance.
 
  • #779
If a police officer described the diary as 'salacious', but it didn't contain chapter and verse of SJL's experiences, what other information may deem it to be so described?

The "salacious diary" concept comes from DV, who describes his meeting with Stuart Ryan (possibly a pseudonym) of the Met. DV went to meet him along with his researcher, Caroline, and presents his case to Ryan.

DV sets up the meeting to show that the police are not interested in pursuing his theory. There are several themes that DV raises in the description of this meeting, mostly to do with the points he is making to underpin his POW theory. He also describes the conversation in such a way that makes Ryan look like he is not familiar with the facts of the case (or the facts as DV sees them-- he describes Ryan as "sounding a little defeated...he stumbled over the end of his sentence, seemingly unsure how to finish it..." DV describes the meeting in a way that suggests he thinks the police want to dismiss him, cover up what he has found.

It's a long description but here is the bit that is relevant to DV setting up this "salacious" concept.

DV first says he could have searched the POW himself, using the exact same techniques etc as the police but the reason he didn't was because SJL's sister asked him to share his findings with the Met.

"But as we tried to seek an explanation for this, Ryan's tone changed. He began to suggest that our investigation had fallen short of achieving anything, despite his admissions so far to the contrary.

It simply wasn't good enough, he said, that we were suggesting Suzy's remains could be under the dining room floor of the POW. In order to be able to say this, he claimed, we'd have to provide him with a motive for why whoever had killed her there had chosen to do it.

'There are key bits that you cannot answer in your hypothesis,' he chided. 'There are key bits in our investigation, which is public record, which you cannot account for in your hypothesis'- he smiled-'which knocks your hypothesis down completely'

'It's not a hypothesis,' I mumbled. A hypothesis is something more than a wild guess but less than a well established theory.

[Ryan talks about Suzy's car at this point, there is a lot of this chapter about whether there was a second house viewing that day]

"This letter makes it clear exactly... that we are not opening the investigation in terms of your hypothesis. If you identify the POW pub as a possible location,' Ryan continued imperiously... 'We will make it quite clear that from a police point of view that is, that it's inaccurate and unfounded'...but if you get the golden thread which suddenly changes everything"

So it wasn't unfounded, it was incomplete. And Ryan was now offering us some investigative advice.

[My note-- I think that DV is spinning this a bit. I think he's saying it's unfounded, but is trying to soften the blow a bit.]

"THe golden thread would be something like, was she seen going into the pub at 3 o clock that day?... was she actually seen going into that pub? Because we know for a fact, from CV and KF, that the pub was busy"

[So here DV has massively buried his lede. We learn that the relief landlord and his wife were interviewed, and that the pub was open that afternoon and busy. Except DV has an answer for this-- of course they would say that because (he implies, they are guilty innit?]

"That's what they've told you?" Caroline asked.

"We know that for a fact from them"

{this goes on a while longer then Ryan again says DV would need to provide a proper motive for the events]

"You would need to provide a proper motive for the incident rather than just was it because there was something salacious in her diary and she didn't want someone to take it and therefore she's tried to get it back and there's been an argument and someone's killed her"

It was a bizarre comment...we had never once speculated about the content of Suzy's personal pocket diary.

[...]

We knew that the police had somehow come into the possession of Suzy;s lost property from the pub after her disappearance....apart from the police and those at the pub we hadn't spoken to anyone who really knew she had even lost those items."

End quotes.

1." the police had somehow come into the possession"-- it's documented in AS that they went around to the pub the morning after she disappeared. THis is a bit disingenuous tbh. It's clear that others were aware about the POW because the police knew about it right off the bat. Ergo, she told someone, most likely her colleagues. This is not hard to work out. THe pub was so incidental to the disappearance story and it's decades later and her colleagues probably are not allowed to talk about what they reported to the police, but most likely they just cannot remember this.

2. DV is literally accusing the pub staff of involvement in Suzy's disappearance and death. He does need a motive and that is the diary, it is implied throughout his book. So the police officer here is not giving away secret evidence of the diary really being salacious, DV is jumping on this comment to make it seem like... ooooh the diary was salacious, ergo now we have a motive for the killing.

But yeah, he buries the lede. The relief landlord AND his wife were interviewed at the time and confirmed the pub was busy that afternoon. Open. And busy.
 
  • #780
The "salacious diary" concept comes from DV, who describes his meeting with Stuart Ryan (possibly a pseudonym) of the Met. DV went to meet him along with his researcher, Caroline, and presents his case to Ryan.

DV sets up the meeting to show that the police are not interested in pursuing his theory. There are several themes that DV raises in the description of this meeting, mostly to do with the points he is making to underpin his POW theory. He also describes the conversation in such a way that makes Ryan look like he is not familiar with the facts of the case (or the facts as DV sees them-- he describes Ryan as "sounding a little defeated...he stumbled over the end of his sentence, seemingly unsure how to finish it..." DV describes the meeting in a way that suggests he thinks the police want to dismiss him, cover up what he has found.

It's a long description but here is the bit that is relevant to DV setting up this "salacious" concept.

DV first says he could have searched the POW himself, using the exact same techniques etc as the police but the reason he didn't was because SJL's sister asked him to share his findings with the Met.

"But as we tried to seek an explanation for this, Ryan's tone changed. He began to suggest that our investigation had fallen short of achieving anything, despite his admissions so far to the contrary.

It simply wasn't good enough, he said, that we were suggesting Suzy's remains could be under the dining room floor of the POW. In order to be able to say this, he claimed, we'd have to provide him with a motive for why whoever had killed her there had chosen to do it.

'There are key bits that you cannot answer in your hypothesis,' he chided. 'There are key bits in our investigation, which is public record, which you cannot account for in your hypothesis'- he smiled-'which knocks your hypothesis down completely'

'It's not a hypothesis,' I mumbled. A hypothesis is something more than a wild guess but less than a well established theory.

[Ryan talks about Suzy's car at this point, there is a lot of this chapter about whether there was a second house viewing that day]

"This letter makes it clear exactly... that we are not opening the investigation in terms of your hypothesis. If you identify the POW pub as a possible location,' Ryan continued imperiously... 'We will make it quite clear that from a police point of view that is, that it's inaccurate and unfounded'...but if you get the golden thread which suddenly changes everything"

So it wasn't unfounded, it was incomplete. And Ryan was now offering us some investigative advice.

[My note-- I think that DV is spinning this a bit. I think he's saying it's unfounded, but is trying to soften the blow a bit.]

"THe golden thread would be something like, was she seen going into the pub at 3 o clock that day?... was she actually seen going into that pub? Because we know for a fact, from CV and KF, that the pub was busy"

[So here DV has massively buried his lede. We learn that the relief landlord and his wife were interviewed, and that the pub was open that afternoon and busy. Except DV has an answer for this-- of course they would say that because (he implies, they are guilty innit?]

"That's what they've told you?" Caroline asked.

"We know that for a fact from them"

{this goes on a while longer then Ryan again says DV would need to provide a proper motive for the events]

"You would need to provide a proper motive for the incident rather than just was it because there was something salacious in her diary and she didn't want someone to take it and therefore she's tried to get it back and there's been an argument and someone's killed her"

It was a bizarre comment...we had never once speculated about the content of Suzy's personal pocket diary.

[...]

We knew that the police had somehow come into the possession of Suzy;s lost property from the pub after her disappearance....apart from the police and those at the pub we hadn't spoken to anyone who really knew she had even lost those items."

End quotes.

1." the police had somehow come into the possession"-- it's documented in AS that they went around to the pub the morning after she disappeared. THis is a bit disingenuous tbh. It's clear that others were aware about the POW because the police knew about it right off the bat. Ergo, she told someone, most likely her colleagues. This is not hard to work out. THe pub was so incidental to the disappearance story and it's decades later and her colleagues probably are not allowed to talk about what they reported to the police, but most likely they just cannot remember this.

2. DV is literally accusing the pub staff of involvement in Suzy's disappearance and death. He does need a motive and that is the diary, it is implied throughout his book. So the police officer here is not giving away secret evidence of the diary really being salacious, DV is jumping on this comment to make it seem like... ooooh the diary was salacious, ergo now we have a motive for the killing.

But yeah, he buries the lede. The relief landlord AND his wife were interviewed at the time and confirmed the pub was busy that afternoon. Open. And busy.

Excellent. Thanks @Konstantin.

DV strikes me as somewhat manipulative and desperate.....not a healthy combination.

The only motive that needs exploring is DV's one for making a nuisance of himself with the Met. I suspect he did not leave after twenty years, of what would normally be a thirty year career, on the best of terms.

I doubt if the Met are losing any sleep over DV. Although, if I'd been convicted on the basis of his evidence, I'd be lodging my appeal forthwith.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
96
Guests online
2,312
Total visitors
2,408

Forum statistics

Threads
632,725
Messages
18,630,956
Members
243,274
Latest member
WickedGlow
Back
Top