• #561
Re: other door slamming that was HR. For me HR just isn’t reliable enough as a witness. Not only did he deliberately exaggerate re: van bundling, but in Belgium he said that DR aka Kiper looked more like the man he’d seen & could well be him. Will find the article. Here is Kiper around when HR saw him

Well, Kiper, pronounced (though do correct me if I am wrong coz my Dutch is non existent) Keeper - does seem to have a broken nose. Maybe his face looks chubbier in photos (it happens).

Though I don't trust HR as a witness either. Unless he was curtain twitching, how much notice would he have taken? My neighbours are probably in and out all day as they are a family of 4, I don't notice them when I'm home during the day unless their teenage son practices his carpentry skills on his circular saw in the back garden.

The "photofit is a dead ringer for Cannan" is a prime driver in this case. Let's drop that, as it's also a dead ringer for lots of other people, and look at what else there is.
 
  • #562
But here…”At the time of the inquiry, police discounted the BMW sighting as irrelevant as it did not fit with their timeline of events”

It begs question what else was possibly dismissed as didn’t fit with the ‘correct’ timeline?
Quite so - which is why I am sceptical of claims that the police "would never have" done or failed to do this or that thing. The ruling theory was established on day 1, and what didn't fit with it was, in some instances at least, discarded. This seems unfortunately to have resulted in important stuff like the BMW and BW reports being dismissed out of hand.
 
  • #563
The "photofit is a dead ringer for Cannan" is a prime driver in this case. Let's drop that, as it's also a dead ringer for lots of other people, and look at what else there is.
Agree - IMO, Shakin' Stevens still has a *lot* of explaining to around what he was apparently doing at this ole house. He doesn't seem to have fixed the shingles, but he may have fixed the do', which could be why it shows no damage. Hmm.
 
  • #564
Well, Kiper, pronounced (though do correct me if I am wrong coz my Dutch is non existent) Keeper - does seem to have a broken nose. Maybe his face looks chubbier in photos (it happens).

Though I don't trust HR as a witness either. Unless he was curtain twitching, how much notice would he have taken? My neighbours are probably in and out all day as they are a family of 4, I don't notice them when I'm home during the day unless their teenage son practices his carpentry skills on his circular saw in the back garden.

The "photofit is a dead ringer for Cannan" is a prime driver in this case. Let's drop that, as it's also a dead ringer for lots of other people, and look at what else there is.
True on broken nose, the best likeness IMO I’ve seen is for VV that was socialising in Chelsea & Fulham at right time & in £ parts of London & his autobio outlines a 1986 date with a ‘Sloane’ he took out between the Kings & Fulham Rd: “I told the girl I was a dumb motor sports reporter who was studying English & living off my parents money”.

As you’ll note VV’s eyebrows also meet in the middle. They never found the ‘client’ doing this deal - VV was known to have at least 7 false identities. Could one of them be sitting in SL’s contact book?
 

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  • #565
Quite so - which is why I am sceptical of claims that the police "would never have" done or failed to do this or that thing. The ruling theory was established on day 1, and what didn't fit with it was, in some instances at least, discarded. This seems unfortunately to have resulted in important stuff like the BMW and BW reports being dismissed out of hand.

Exactly this. According to DV’s research police set about holding the press conference on the Tuesday before they’d even tracked down and ruled out Suzy’s lodger, NB. ‘An odd thing to do’, is how I think DV understatedly put it.

Whether she took the keys or not, the fundamental point, arguments from personal incredulity aside, is surely that she did not go into 37SR. Not taking the keys reinforces this point, as if it needed it. The only witness who said she was inside later admitted he might have heard the door of a different house being shut.

I think in the end this is right. The key(s) thing is interesting but not integral. The problem ultimately is that no one can really sketch out what happened that day with any certainty. Police decided around about the end of the last century that Cannan did it - but they don’t really know what ‘it’, is. They’ve reached a conclusion but have then had to work backwards, trying not particularly successfully imo to make the few bits of information they do have fit their man. Any time they open their mouths I become less convinced, not more.
 
  • #566
True on broken nose, the best likeness IMO I’ve seen is for VV that was socialising in Chelsea & Fulham at right time & in £ parts of London & his autobio outlines a 1986 date with a ‘Sloane’ he took out between the Kings & Fulham Rd: “I told the girl I was a dumb motor sports reporter who was studying English & living off my parents money”.

As you’ll note VV’s eyebrows also meet in the middle. They never found the ‘client’ doing this deal - VV was known to have at least 7 false identities. Could one of them be sitting in SL’s contact book?
He looks much more like the Kipper photofit than Cannan, and was a much smarter criminal.
 
  • #567
Exactly this. According to DV’s research police set about holding the press conference on the Tuesday before they’d even tracked down and ruled out Suzy’s lodger, NB. ‘An odd thing to do’, is how I think DV understatedly put it.



I think in the end this is right. The key(s) thing is interesting but not integral. The problem ultimately is that no one can really sketch out what happened that day with any certainty. Police decided around about the end of the last century that Cannan did it - but they don’t really know what ‘it’, is. They’ve reached a conclusion but have then had to work backwards, trying not particularly successfully imo to make the few bits of information they do have fit their man. Any time they open their mouths I become less convinced, not more.
For me the biggest evidence for JC comes from his interview with Barley as transcribed by CBD in his book ‘Prime Suspect’.

JC is very clearly on the ropes at various points in this interview, he’s really struggling to sound plausible & innocent. He calls the man who killed SB, H - the same name coincidentally as SL’s most enduring love (source: AS).

More crucially, JC, when he’s not showboating but in some real conversational trouble, explains, H, the mysterious car dealer/ SB mini purchaser effectively kills both SB & SL ‘and another girl’ (odds are good for SC). If innocent & largely unaware of both SL & SC he really didn’t need to loop them in here.

I think it’s possible the SLP plate on mini was a coincidence. Or looking for notoriety (?) could he have wanted to take the credit for a crime/murder he didn’t commit.
 
  • #568
Was Suzy's car ever checked for Cannan's DNA?
Bizarrely it was MOTed until about 1993, presumably so it could be used on the road! - so it was clearly not preserved as a crime scene.
 
  • #569
The timeline is clearly very important. The police were tying themselves in knots in early days to piece 37 Shorrolds visit & WJ account together. Barley, I believe, thinks or thought SL went to Stevenage Rd first
Interesting that in the press clipping, the jogger misremembered 28/7 as a very hot day. It was actually so gloomy they scratched the cricket early that day.
 
  • #570
Bizarrely it was MOTed until about 1993, presumably so it could be used on the road! - so it was clearly not preserved as a crime scene.
AL was asked to sit in it very early in investigation to see if driver’s seat - as it had been adjusted - a fit for a tall man.
 
  • #571
Interesting that in the press clipping, the jogger misremembered 28/7 as a very hot day. It was actually so gloomy they scratched the cricket early that day.
Yes. That went through my mind too. I know not sunny/overcast but wondered if hot or humid?
 
  • #572
  • #573
One reason why the person doing the deal never came to light could of course be that his number was in her diary but under his wife's name; if, for example, she knew them both.
 
  • #574
Hello Elly
Thankyou for your post. DNA in 86 was only in its very early stages. . A thumbprint has been taken from the car, but it did not have enough at the time to be able to provide a link it was so small. There are chances it might be able to provide evidence as technology advances (thats how small the sample must have been). Other tapings, etc have been reported to provide no evidence (as reported at the time) but again, this was 40 years ago, so the technology available was worlds away to what it is today or even 10 years on from her disappearance.
Thank you. It also appears that the car was used by other estate agents so I guess they continued to use it after Suzy disappeared. (I'm catching up on all the threads as I often think about Suzy and long for her to be found)
 
  • #575
For me the biggest evidence for JC comes from his interview with Barley as transcribed by CBD in his book ‘Prime Suspect’.

JC is very clearly on the ropes at various points in this interview, he’s really struggling to sound plausible & innocent. He calls the man who killed SB, H - the same name coincidentally as SL’s most enduring love (source: AS).

More crucially, JC, when he’s not showboating but in some real conversational trouble, explains, H, the mysterious car dealer/ SB mini purchaser effectively kills both SB & SL ‘and another girl’ (odds are good for SC). If innocent & largely unaware of both SL & SC he really didn’t need to loop them in here.

I think it’s possible the SLP plate on mini was a coincidence. Or looking for notoriety (?) could he have wanted to take the credit for a crime/murder he didn’t commit.

Yes, this stuff is definitely interesting. But again we come back to what we discussed the other day - if criminals are fundamentally dishonest people who aren’t to be believed then that has to be applied to everything they say, from their alibis, to their confessions.

I must admit I’ve not read CBD’s book and probably should at some point but I don’t believe Cannan ever said anything to police that wasn’t already known, no ‘only the killer could know this’ kind of detail? It all strikes me as a guy trying to toy with policemen who were better briefed and far smarter than he was, to the point where it’s pretty obvious he’s talking a load of claptrap and he just comes off looking like a berk.

This is revealing in its own way, I suppose. Was Cannan attempting to con Suzy in some way and she saw through him and so he killed her? Perhaps. But as others have said, we’ve no evidence the two had ever met, never mind that they engaged in a long-ish affair. As you’ve discussed, there may be names and numbers in Suzy’s diary that police have overlooked for one reason or another over the years but the Met’s appetite to dig in to this stuff now seems nonexistent sadly.
 
  • #576
Yes, this stuff is definitely interesting. But again we come back to what we discussed the other day - if criminals are fundamentally dishonest people who aren’t to be believed then that has to be applied to everything they say, from their alibis, to their confessions.

I must admit I’ve not read CBD’s book and probably should at some point but I don’t believe Cannan ever said anything to police that wasn’t already known, no ‘only the killer could know this’ kind of detail? It all strikes me as a guy trying to toy with policemen who were better briefed and far smarter than he was, to the point where it’s pretty obvious he’s talking a load of claptrap and he just comes off looking like a berk.

This is revealing in its own way, I suppose. Was Cannan attempting to con Suzy in some way and she saw through him and so he killed her? Perhaps. But as others have said, we’ve no evidence the two had ever met, never mind that they engaged in a long-ish affair. As you’ve discussed, there may be names and numbers in Suzy’s diary that police have overlooked for one reason or another over the years but the Met’s appetite to dig in to this stuff now seems nonexistent sadly.
SW may apparently be looked into again in the light of new info & in theory the SL case still open. It may mean a few other things could be researched in parallel.

I am interested in what action could be taken to try to usefully move things forward. Using DNA to nail JC for SC’s murder may be possible. For various reasons I think the odds are good he wrote the confession letter (the writing was said to look like JC’s with left hand by an expert but that’s not my only reason) & if the police still have it they can possibly easily rule him in or out for writing this at least. If JC killed SC in May it may have unfortunately whetted his appetite for murderous behaviour again.

Looking again at the hair in the car (sierra) re: DNA too, less straightforward but it might be poss to rule SL & SC in or out. There is no evidence the hair belonged to SL via DNA & real misinformation out there on this.

Using the same surname as DH for the imagined car dealer may be a coincidence but’s it’s moderately uncommon. If that postcard from him (would his surname be on it?) or written to him with SL intending to post (then, yes), poss interesting. This would mean some heavy research on JC’s part & him poss rifling lost possessions. He did have form, hiring PI on AR etc, but on balance this seems unlikely IMO.

On SB is there a chance her body could have been undiscovered. It was many months before it was - thinking re: JC’s MO. If Norton B SL’s final resting place he likely took her there alive. He killed SB in situ.

They’ll be small ads connected to some of the phone numbers in contacts book -assuming there are many -almost certainly. That might provide further clues on some. One of them in press for other things later on -colourful. He was later investigated for murder & cleared.
He apparently met SL in a new & expensive gym. Why was she there? Was any membership known & confirmed by her parents? How could she afford it?

Another man was eliminated from contacts as said SL wanted to buy a car from him. Source AS. Did this tally? Was she looking for a car at this time? Did he advertise it in papers? Which car was for sale?

The police were thorough at eliminating Sturgis clients - 200 plus looked at. However, AS said only a fraction of her contacts were looked at as too many (?) Will find quote. If Barley does another podcast etc a question might be did the police consider & fine tooth comb all of these? Any involved client likely off the books after all.

Very difficult 40 years later of course.

On JC’s MO the police made connections between the anonymous roses received by SL & JC’s habit of sending them & champagne - much more common in 80s.

CBD worth reading. He found the pay & display ticket putting JC’s feet on ground in same time/place re: SC. His correspondence with JC I think a rich source of evidence too. JC’s prison novels should be looked also. I feel there might be a hidden nugget too in SL’s contact book. Anyone reviewing all needs to be very well versed in case from earliest days or so easy to miss a clue. All the debris & items found in JC’s boot interesting - inc x2 champagne corks.

SB mini plates? What’s your view here? JC told Barley in interview about 3 victims.
 
  • #577
As noted above, in the interviews at least JC disclosed nothing that he could only have known if the perp. It's possible he was outthought and unveiled into confessing by a skilled interviewer.

I am not sure about how the name thing would work. He gave the fake name Hodgeson, SJL's LTR was called Hodgkinson. It would only appear on a postcard addressed to him, but why would she send him one when he was abroad at that time? If found in her diary what would tell JC this was her LTR?
 
  • #578
As noted above, in the interviews at least JC disclosed nothing that he could only have known if the perp. It's possible he was outthought and unveiled into confessing by a skilled interviewer.

I am not sure about how the name thing would work. He gave the fake name Hodgeson, SJL's LTR was called Hodgkinson. It would only appear on a postcard addressed to him, but why would she send him one when he was abroad at that time? If found in her diary what would tell JC this was her LTR?
P.187 ‘Hodgkinson’ very specifically given first - that spelling -Prime Suspect CBD.

Although JC did also add it might have been ‘Hodgeson’ or similar name - you’re right. First & foremost ‘Hodgkinson’ given though. It might all be a coincidence ofc.

DH had been away for a few months teaching sailing from memory. It’s possible even likely - pre social media & mobiles etc - they were writing to each other esp as not a short holiday. She was a big writer - writing to her sister in NZ etc. If this was the postcard in her diary/contact book - as yet unsent - & it mentioned something about their lasting love - then it might be relevant or interesting. And/or if anything in contact book under his name given rumours around this ‘address book’ that DV said friends or family hadn’t seen before.

I thought it interesting too that AS mentioned DH as her most enduring love with above in mind. May mean nothing.
 
  • #579
He looks much more like the Kipper photofit than Cannan, and was a much smarter criminal.
If Italian he would also be likelier to have the suntan reported. Other witnesses thought they saw a pasty faced man with a broken nose. The sketch of this man is never offered up as a sighting of JC. An obvious inference is that there was more than one dark haired man in a suit in that road that afternoon.
 
  • #580
If Italian he would also be likelier to have the suntan reported. Other witnesses thought they saw a pasty faced man with a broken nose. The sketch of this man is never offered up as a sighting of JC. An obvious inference is that there was more than one dark haired man in a suit in that road that afternoon.
The suntanned, handsome man seen in Stevenage Rd too (MJ witness). VV known for being sharp, expensively suited, & present in SL’s area also. It might be that more focus should be directed to Stevenage Rd area AFAIK we have only one distinct sighting of a man here. BW saw a man in her car & ‘Galway’ heard a row but only one physical description.
 
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