UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Kasparthecat1]

There shouldn’t be any confusion but you could well be right.

Makes one wonder what else he's "confused" about...

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Probably confused her with his other three rape convictions.

There shouldn’t be any confusion but you could well be right.

Perhaps so but I struggle with the idea that in July 1986 JC would have drive 130 miles to dump a body. He can't have had that many opportunities to recce the area at that point, and later, after he had had time from living in the area, he only went 40 miles from Bristol with SB. Not to say it's impossible.

When she was a beautician in 1984 (1982?) she also mentioned a Bristol businessman, married IIRC. This one is often co-opted as the evidence for a Cannan connection even though he was in the slammer at the time. I suspect any 1986 Bristol connection he claimed would have been based on where AR was to be found.

If only Whitehall1212 were still here! I could do both!

Yes - exactly, on earlier Bristol or West Country affair. Mentioned to client at Face Place (beauticians) in 1984 approx.

He was ‘living’ in Bristol in prison & via association with AR an aspirational place to hopefully settle & have a business & a new start.

There definitely was a ‘Bristol’ man in May 86 - according to DL - who became scary.

 

[Konstantin]

Thank you. So Gilly stands by her original statement, which was not particularly useful from an evidential point of view it seems, and the later more lurid stuff may or may not be attributed to Gilly herself. I wonder where MB got the idea from then that Gilly had been raped by JC? Her original statement to police?

Wherever he got it from, I'm shocked that he disclosed it without, apparently, her permission.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Makes one wonder what else he's "confused" about...

Well that’s the problem with all this.

No one should have started with JC & any attempt to rule him in or out (Phoebus) almost bound to confuse.

No one has gone back to start in 1986 with a clear & objective review.

JD shows he’s not familiar with earliest detail NB: calls to Sturgis from ‘Sarah’ & ‘policeman’ etc. The devil, IMO, really is in the detail. It might ALL be linked to an unwise deal & the culprit is in the contact book somewhere.

Then as described upthread, communication issues between MET & Dorset police hampering progress.

DL so wanted it all to fit JC it seems she was massaging facts to fit to him. No one can blame her for wanting closure & she wasn’t alone.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Yes, the hat came up later it seems. Odd as not a particularly warm & sunny day. In fact, gloomy. As someone said upthread they stopped play on cricket due to gloom/visibility.

I'm sure the pictures of the car they found showing the hat on the rear parcel shelf

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I'm sure the pictures of the car they found showing the hat on the rear parcel shelf

Yes, it was def in the car. I mean the much later witness reports of her wearing it down the street.

 

[lee sumner]

Was the missing luggage with letters with possible clues about the mystery man ever found?

NO.

 

[Konstantin]

Yes, it was def in the car. I mean the much later witness reports of her wearing it down the street.

Yeah I can't see why she'd wear it down the street. It wasn't a sunny day and it looks like a cheap straw hat you'd keep for the beach.

Only reason to wear it really is to try to disguise yourself? But she had no reason to?

Maybe it was just someone else in a hat who's been to an event. Couples on the street are a common sight after all.

Someone needed to and still does need to do a forensic review of everything. We have technology to help with that now.

 

[lee sumner]

What did she want to sell her flat for? She didn't like the area? Thought she could invest whatever profit she turned on it somewhere else?

It wasn't selling so the market either wasn't hot or she'd overpriced it.

How would she buy a house with someone else? Partly with cash from the flat sale assuming there was anything after mortgage and fees paid+ mortgage?

And more importantly why?

Was it something like, look I live abroad most of the year but I want a nice pied a terre in a nice part of London for the 2 weeks I'm here and a London address for my business deals. You'll live there mostly alone and can bring your posh boyfriend here. It'll make money so you'll profit. And you'll put up with me for a few days every year and forward my letters. Oh and maybe a friend might stay over from time to time. If it's criminal then a safe house for people staying in London to do business and fence items possibly.

I can see her going for that but if that was the deal it sure as heck wasn't 37 Shorrolds Road. It'd be a posh flat. In a discreet area.

But why kill her over it? And why would the buyer need her? Legitimacy. She had access to property as an estate agent. She'd be living there so it looks kosher to neighbours.

I can't see Cannan working that sort of scheme. Sorry, John. He was a loser low tier crook who robbed petrol stations.

i think SL was going to move back in with her sister tamsin. they lived together on walham grove fulham years earlier. i cant see her moving back in with her parents. this is what i have always wanted to know. it does seem like she wanted to sell the flat ASAP, the question is why.

 

[lee sumner]

The Scotsman newspaper from July 1992.

Mr Kipper?...

View attachment 647162

If it was, then it wasn't Cannan.

wow, interesting article.

 

[WestLondoner]

Just so. The description isn't inconsistent with "Mr Kipper" - but if it's the same bloke each time, then it was not JC whom HR saw.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

PL was REALLY worried about the optics re: SL’s reputation. The Lamplughs were worried this ‘deal’ (again) might make public think ill of her. They also think the police KNEW about deal/purchase but had forgotten or overlooked this - as they said elsewhere too.

NB: “She would never have taken part in any nefarious activity”. Yet AS had to unwillingly disclose something unfortunate to Carter Ruck in end. It might be she bit off more than she could chew. No one ‘gifts’ ££ with no strings.

Yet her dodgiest associates in that contact book needed more not less scrutiny.

IF anyone did suggest fraud SL would have backed out & her parents view was this led to her abduction. Would she have backed out on grey? Development a murky world back then.

Moving on…

I think it’s worth looking at witness sightings on Stevenage. A couple seen arguing to South of Barrier there. The garage exit south of barrier to flats DL later searched.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Galway-a-like pick up

“Thank Christ you have come!”
An odd hop to North End Rd McDonalds? £1.60 fare.

Initial reports of 12 Aug 1986 had taxi pick up on junction of Finlay & Stevenage.

The Crimewatch reconstruction, which you imagine they took some care over & which taxi driver says he witnessed, has pick up to south of there. Either Ellerby or Donerailie.

The houses shown look to be larger & with balconies matching design of ends of Doneralie & Ellerby rather than smaller semis of Stevenage end of Finlay. Although similar up on East of Finlay.

The phrasing on Crimewatch “whilst he was standing there outside” (taxi driver) almost suggests “right ruck” inside a property?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

i think SL was going to move back in with her sister tamsin. they lived together on walham grove fulham years earlier. i cant see her moving back in with her parents. this is what i have always wanted to know. it does seem like she wanted to sell the flat ASAP, the question is why.

She needed to raise money for this new, ambitious purchase, pronto, hence the hurry.

The Walham Grove flat was arguably nicer & a bit more of a prestigious location than SL’s. DL was really ambitious for girls & split the rent with them even though I think Ls not cash rich at time. Poss fuelled an appetite for ‘more’ & social improvement.

Need to look back at dates on Walham - this is 1982 was this SL subletting somehow on QE2 & T back home? Prob a coincidence.,NB: short lets from x1 week in Park Lane. Makes me think is it really out of question JC couldn’t have rented for a week or two to craft facade of businessman? Arguably he could afford in very short term.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

i meant it was posted from southampton on the tuesday.

It says in article I attached letter posted exactly 13 days after SC’s murder. If acc ofc.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

JC father cyril left him money when he died, and his uncle left money. so he could have had a decent amount when he got out. enough to impress the ladies, which is his MO.

Yes. Cyril died around Jan 85, if this legacy paid out & prob had been by then, JC had some £ to impress ladies by mid 86 & apparently he began to spend a lot May-June 86. If you get it when still ‘half’ in custody. (?) He had £300 a week from Superhire.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Was the missing luggage with letters with possible clues about the mystery man ever found?

Can you expand on this. Interesting, thanks.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Can you expand on this. Interesting, thanks.

I was replying to the person with the links. Please follow the trail upwards to find the link.

 

[lee sumner]

James Calvert, the officer junior, used it. He was about the same height as SJL.

Presumably placed there by the police while fingerprinting. Nobody else mentions it.

The pub would not have been open. KH rang the bank that morning, the bank rang her and she rang the pub. Until that point she didn't know where the stuff was.

Yes, or the earlier sighting was of a similar but different car. The Fiesta was the UK's best selling car and white was among the commoner colours. A schoolboy claimed to have seen the car at 12 noon, at which time SJL was in the office. This argues for two different cars.

I've a feeling this witness came forward 14 years later and thus has no idea what happened on 28/7/86.

Good question. AS notes it was very difficult. For my money the driver got out and there was at that point no passenger. Someone returned to the car later to remove evidence.

He was on day release since January, had weekends off and the curfew was slack. It is very odd, though, that if this was true, we were never shown a sketch of these other Kipper sightings taken from other estate agency staff. Unless none ever met him.

Summarises the whole problem with the sightings. You have to decide whether HR is more reliable than WJ.

She must have spoken to him that morning, or the previous evening, if that was where she was the previous night.

The viewing at 6pm would have been a priority, and it was a timed appointment. It was already in her diary when she left at 12.40. She would thus not have told the PoW she would be there at 6pm because she knew she had to be elsewhere. She might have said after 6pm or she might have changed the time and gone there at 12.45, instead of going to 37SR (this is DV's hypothesis).

If anyone at the PoW had something to do with her disappearance, and if she went there at 12.45, the simplest answer to "did she ever turn up?" was "no, she wasn't expected till 6". In 1986, not having seen the diary all over the papers, that would seem logical, but by 1987, a bad actor at the PoW would know no such appointment was possible and that some other arrangement must have been made. This may explain why a year on, other calls about her to the pub were mentioned. Other explanations are possible.

We don't know.

Probably not. All her appointments would have been within a mile or so. Anywhere could look fishily close to somewhere else.

Nervous at being on TV? I just thought he looked like the Kipper sketch - dark-haired late-20s yuppie in a suit.

That's at the 21st on Saturday, and reputedly who SJL replaced AL with while the latter was on holiday.

We don't know.

No, it's occasionally dredged and they figured that was enough. Some find the canal witness unpersuasive.

We don't know.

The police said nobody had been inside that day. Witness error. It's why the keys don't really matter. She never went in.

He did not. Maybe he had no business being there at that time. Maybe he was "CV" dumping the car and planting a false trail. Maybe he didn't read newspapers or watch TV...

We don't know.

Possible. JC was mates with a lag who had a council flat nearby. The block had garages so he may have one of those too.

No, because we don't know how she was forced out of one car, into another and then to some house or other place and killed there.

SL agreed to pick up her missing items at 6PM. this shows to me she was not in a hurry to get them back. common sense tells me she was happy with this time as she would be making her way home. yes, she had an appointment with joanna to view 43 waldermar at 6PM, which tells me she will be picking her items up after appointment around 630PM. there is no evidence SL changed her mind about going earlier to the POW. its only in DV imagination which is not evidence. as for the keys, iam going to believe DCI carter when he says she took them, as carter is the SIO in charge of the case, and would not be stupid enough to think she took keys if they were still in the office.