University to students: All Whites are Racist

[Details]

KKK still is here daily in Indy! It is a damn shame but they are. Maybe this is where I get my feelings from. My feelings for AA's that is. I have been told from birth to hate AA's. I see it every F'ing day and am just so sick of it. I would seriously have them check out Fishers or Carmel Nova.

ETA Or tell them to move next door to Indy(insert smiling Icon)

Move up here to Seattle - much better!

 

[deanws]

If only it were that simple. All GPAs are not created equal; there's quite a difference between a B average from Harvard and a B average from most community colleges. Some students take lots of hard courses; others take only easy courses from professor known to give "easy As." A lower GPA from a student who worked full time may be more of an achievement (and a better indicator of future success) than a higher GPA from a student who had no other obligations. Some individuals have a bad year due to circumstances beyond their control; this, of course, lowers their GPA, but has no bearing on how they will do in grad school.

So schools use test scores to help reveal students with high abilities who may have performed poorly in the past (for whatever reason). But nobody has figured out a test that is really fair to all applicants.

So schools require admission essays, letters of reference, etc. and so forth.

A lot of different factors are used in determining admission and it is never a perfect process.

Nova, if they take a lot of easy classes they won't be qualified to enter the program for which they are applying. There are STANDARD classes that are required by ALL students applying to admission to certain programs. You tell me how skin color or gender equates into ANY indicator of how well they will do in a program? IMO it doesn't.

 

[Paladin]

But that's just the point! You write as if qualities like "hard work" and "dedication" were easy to quantify and measure.

I grew up in a lower middle-class family, but all adults had at least a couple of years of college. Grammar lessons and standardized tests were relatively easy for me because the answers sounded just like the speech I grew up hearing at home. Compare me to someone who only heard a traditionally lower class dialect at home: how much more "hard work" did s/he put in--just to get slightly lower scores?

Then that person hiring workers using the same logic as you would be a jerk for assuming a person of color came from a traditional lower class home.

There's really no way to indicate that this would be the case unless the interviewer asks everyone what their origins and childhood environments were like, which they don't in any interview I've ever been on.

So with that said, it's not right to assume a person of color had to work any harder than a white person.

 

[Indy Gal]

Move up here to Seattle - much better!

I wish I could just move anywhere but here sometimes!

 

[deanws]

OK, I'll be a little ticked. Are you now judging all white people by one, or maybe a few posters (personally, I see one, maybe 2 posters of the type you talk about). Ironic - and very wrong. If it's racist to judge a group of AA's by a few examples, it's exactly the same if you want to do that to white people, or any group at all.

Good post Details and right to the point.

 

[Details]

Well, NOTHING is sure in life but death and taxes....however, grades, test scores and community involvement IS a reliable indicator of future success as far as I am concerned. Color or what is or isn't between your legs shouldn't have anything to do with getting accepted for a special program.

Might be a good sign of success, and I don't know how to solve the problem, but - if you live somewhere where your life is continually threatened, teachers are bottom of the barrel, only those who can't get hired elsewhere, everyone around you says to forget school, here's some drugs, and you overcome all of that, are smart enough, determined enough to make it - the test score alone won't represent their intellect and character properly. They started with a huge handicap, and overcame it.

Now - given that - all too often the test scores will still accurately represent that they have not been taught some of what they need - and when we then put them in college, with some affirmative action or whatever - we sometimes set them up to fail - they go in to calculus, with a poor or no understanding of algebra or trig, for example, and they'll probably fail - and then the racists say that this proves affirmative action wrong. That I think we do need to solve - the test scores, grades, PLUS the starting point they had to come from, that measures their potential, and I think we need to consider that a ton, not to waste valuable people because they had so much to overcome just to take the test - but the lower score does show something that they need help with.

 

[Details]

I wish I could just move anywhere but here sometimes!

You can - you always can. Just a matter of what it's worth.

 

[Nova]

Then that person hiring workers using the same logic as you would be a jerk for assuming a person of color came from a traditional lower class home.

There's really no way to indicate that this would be the case unless the interviewer asks everyone what their origins and childhood environments were like, which they don't in any interview I've ever been on.

So with that said, it's not right to assume a person of color had to work any harder than a white person.

We were speaking of college admissions, Pal, and, yes, they do ask about background. Students are usually required to write some sort of essay on the subject.

You are correct, of course, that African American middle- and upper-class students don't face the same disadvantages as lower-class students. But race isn't usually a sole qualifier, it's just one factor among many that are considered, and should be considered only in conjunction with other aspects. But everyone goes nuts at the mention of race as a qualifer, as if colleges don't also consider things like alumni relatives, athletic ability and the willingness of parents to make donations.

 

[deanws]

And if all the doctors and lawyers come from relatively wealthy, white suburbs, what will you have the inner-city poor do when they need a doctor or lawyer?

I'm not being flippant. The paucity of medical and legal professionals in the inner cities is scandalous.

So you are saying that only WHITE and WEALTHY can make the grades and do community service? If that is what you think...then I think you are REALLY living in a fantasy world! Come ON NOVA! You KNOW better than this. The best students for these programs are NOT based on color nor gender, therefore they should not be part of the program selection process. I do agree that the selection process is not perfect. Not many things in life are.

 

[Nova]

Nova, if they take a lot of easy classes they won't be qualified to enter the program for which they are applying. There are STANDARD classes that are required by ALL students applying to admission to certain programs. You tell me how skin color or gender equates into ANY indicator of how well they will do in a program? IMO it doesn't.

I've worked in admissions at more than one university and I taught at the college level for more than a decade. There is quite a bit of variety in those so-called "standard" classes you mention, some of which is known to admission personnel and much that isn't.

I've already explained how race might be a factor in determining how hard someone had to work to achieve certain grades and scores. Not as a sole factor, mind you, but that isn't usually how it is used.

Another issue is whether college students get the education they need when they are segregated with others of equivalent privilege and background. Some colleges have considered race as a factor because they believe their students need to experience a more diverse community at college than what they knew in secondary school.

 

[Seeker]

I wish our schools would teach kids that it doesn't matter if you're black, white, brown, purple or green, we are all part of ONE race...the human race.

 

[deanws]

We were speaking of college admissions, Pal, and, yes, they do ask about background. Students are usually required to write some sort of essay on the subject.

You are correct, of course, that African American middle- and upper-class students don't face the same disadvantages as lower-class students. But race isn't usually a sole qualifier, it's just one factor among many that are considered, and should be considered only in conjunction with other aspects. But everyone goes nuts at the mention of race as a qualifer, as if colleges don't also consider things like alumni relatives, athletic ability and the willingness of parents to make donations.

Oh!!!!:doh: Parents buying the kids way into programs is ANOTHER one of my pet peeves!!! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: Look. I DON'T have an ax to grind here. My kid got in. BUT I do have a problem with the way that the selection process is handled. When there is only 5 spots, and the "quota" has to be filled with gender and race quotas....it becomes a process that just isn't fair. It should be based on other factors....leaving those areas alone.

 

[Paladin]

You are correct, of course, that African American middle- and upper-class students don't face the same disadvantages as lower-class students. But race isn't usually a sole qualifier, it's just one factor among many that are considered, and should be considered only in conjunction with other aspects. But everyone goes nuts at the mention of race as a qualifer, as if colleges don't also consider things like alumni relatives, athletic ability and the willingness of parents to make donations.

It may not be a sole qualifier, but it's definitely a major one, especially where affirmative action is concerned.

I went to a school that was considered to be one of the more difficult ones in the state to gain admission (not trying to toot my own horn here). Towards the end of my undergrad years all of the students and parents received letters saying that admissions would be even harder because they were aiming to make future classes more diverse. They pretty much spelled it out for everyone and that was that people of non-white descent would be given preferential treatment when it came to admission.

Do you consider this an appropriate step towards leveling the playing field or as some would say, racial equality? How can this be when the scales are seemingly tipped a little too far in the other direction when maybe the best way is to make sure they are even?

Or is it your contention that more preference needs to be given to non-white races in order to truly make it even?

And why aren't people allowed to resent this movement without being labeled as whiners? Who are these few people making the decisions for so many?

 

[Nova]

So you are saying that only WHITE and WEALTHY can make the grades and do community service? If that is what you think...then I think you are REALLY living in a fantasy world! Come ON NOVA! You KNOW better than this. The best students for these programs are NOT based on color nor gender, therefore they should not be part of the program selection process. I do agree that the selection process is not perfect. Not many things in life are.

A university's choice is almost never between a white student with a 4.0 GPA and a black student with a 1.5 GPA. At the best schools (including the ones where I studied and taught), almost all serious applicants have 4.0 GPAs or thereabouts. If race is considered, it's usually in a choice between a white applicant with a 4.15 GPA and a minority applicant with a 4.02 or the like.

Of course, I'm not saying the applicants with the highest GPAs and highest SAT scores are ALWAYS white. We're speaking in general and of groups of applicants.

And it is absolutely true that students from wealthy suburbs (mostly white) are able to take numerous AP and Honors courses that boost the GPA. (Extra GPA points are given for those classes; i.e., an A counts as more than an A.) Most inner-city schools can't afford to offer AP classes, or can't offer nearly as many. The result is systematic discrimination in favor of suburban students (mostly white) and against inner-city kids (mostly minority).

This isn't racism as in old men in smoky rooms talking about "keeping the blacks down," but it is sometimes just as effective in denying minorities access to certain advantages and opportunities. Colleges who consider race of applicants are trying to balance the process a bit.

 

[Indy Gal]

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/siu/the.noose/

I think all that has posted here would want to see this!

 

[deanws]

I've worked in admissions at more than one university and I taught at the college level for more than a decade. There is quite a bit of variety in those so-called "standard" classes you mention, some of which is known to admission personnel and much that isn't.

I've already explained how race might be a factor in determining how hard someone had to work to achieve certain grades and scores. Not as a sole factor, mind you, but that isn't usually how it is used.

Another issue is whether college students get the education they need when they are segregated with others of equivalent privilege and background. Some colleges have considered race as a factor because they believe their students need to experience a more diverse community at college than what they knew in secondary school.

I am a retired teacher also, so I guess I see things differently than you do. We will agree to disagree on this subject. :hand:

 

[Paladin]

I wish our schools would teach kids that it doesn't matter if you're black, white, brown, purple or green, we are all part of ONE race...the human race.

I'm glad you said that...according to the packet the RA's were given this just isn't possible. See below:

"Have you ever heard a well-meaning white person say, "I'm not a member of any race except the human race?" What she usually means by this statement is that she doesn't want to perpetuate racial categories by acknowledging that she is white. This is an evasion of responsibility for her participation in a system based on supremacy for white people."

Seeker, do you feel that you are evading your resposibility for your participation in a system based on supremacy for white people? Aren't you offended the someone can insinuate you're playing the ignorant fool?

 

[deanws]

A university's choice is almost never between a white student with a 4.0 GPA and a black student with a 1.5 GPA. At the best schools (including the ones where I studied and taught), almost all serious applicants have 4.0 GPAs or thereabouts. If race is considered, it's usually in a choice between a white applicant with a 4.15 GPA and a minority applicant with a 4.02 or the like.

Of course, I'm not saying the applicants with the highest GPAs and highest SAT scores are ALWAYS white. We're speaking in general and of groups of applicants.

And it is absolutely true that students from wealthy suburbs (mostly white) are able to take numerous AP and Honors courses that boost the GPA. (Extra GPA points are given for those classes; i.e., an A counts as more than an A.) Most inner-city schools can't afford to offer AP classes, or can't offer nearly as many. The result is systematic discrimination in favor of suburban students (mostly white) and against inner-city kids (mostly minority).

This isn't racism as in old men in smoky rooms talking about "keeping the blacks down," but it is sometimes just as effective in denying minorities access to certain advantages and opportunities. Colleges who consider race of applicants are trying to balance the process a bit.

We are on two different pages. I was talking about med school, and it IS race and gender calculated VERY carefully!!! I don't think going into college as a freshman is that calculated...but I might be wrong.

 

[Details]

It may not be a sole qualifier, but it's definitely a major one, especially where affirmative action is concerned.

I went to a school that was considered to be one of the more difficult ones in the state to gain admission (not trying to toot my own horn here). Towards the end of my undergrad years all of the students and parents received letters saying that admissions would be even harder because they were aiming to make future classes more diverse. They pretty much spelled it out for everyone and that was that people of non-white descent would be given preferential treatment when it came to admission.

Do you consider this an appropriate step towards leveling the playing field or as some would say, racial equality? How can this be when the scales are seemingly tipped a little too far in the other direction when maybe the best way is to make sure they are even?

Or is it your contention that more preference needs to be given to non-white races in order to truly make it even?

And why aren't people allowed to resent this movement without being labeled as whiners? Who are these few people making the decisions for so many?

Diverse has many meanings - it also can mean, from a wider spectrum of backgrounds - impoverished as well as wealthy. Class and race are quite closely realted often.

Also - is it giving preference to minority races, or is it taking away an existing, unspoken preference to white students (even if that preference is expressed through legacy admissions, money, preferences for activities on an application that are difficult or impossible in an impoverished, ghetto neighborhood)? Sometimes, what is called reverse racism (not that you are saying that, and not that there isn't also a very real thing that is reverse racism), is merely a group feeling discriminated against because their taken for granted privileges and preferences are going away.

 

[Seeker]

I'm glad you said that...according to the packet the RA's were given this just isn't possible. See below:

"Have you ever heard a well-meaning white person say, "I'm not a member of any race except the human race?" What she usually means by this statement is that she doesn't want to perpetuate racial categories by acknowledging that she is white. This is an evasion of responsibility for her participation in a system based on supremacy for white people."

Seeker, do you feel that you are evading your resposibility for your participation in a system based on supremacy for white people? Aren't you offended the someone can insinuate you're playing the ignorant fool?

I see them as ignorant and guess what? They are!! I'm a member of the HUMAN RACE but I am NOT white! Go figure...