US - 27 shot & killed on Christmas Day

  • #81
It's interesting how so many people equate any gun control with banning or taking away or "outlawing" guns. Not selling guns to people on the terrorist watch list, for instance, is interpreted as repealing the second amendment. Talking about gun deaths leads to "Liberals want to take all the guns" or "Why don't liberals care about ___ deaths?" (It's possible to care about more than one thing.)

So extreme and such an easy way to not discuss an important issue.

JMO

The terrorist no fly list is a joke and in any debate is considered a red herring logical fallacy.

There is no validity in the no fly list, no due process WRT adding a name and almost any authority can add a name.
Ted Kennedy was/is on it. When he was alive that list caused him grief and prevented/delayed him from flying it seems on several occasions.

Even when one is refused thru a background check after a 4473, and fingerprints taken to verify you aren't the correct terrorist, your name stays on the list to thwart your freedoms again in the future.
Why, people have the same names, poof....mind blown , I know.
 
  • #82
The terrorist no fly list is a joke and in any debate is considered a red herring logical fallacy.

There is no validity in the no fly list, no due process WRT adding a name and almost any authority can add a name.
Ted Kennedy was/is on it. When he was alive that list caused him grief and prevented/delayed him from flying it seems on several occasions.

Even when one is refused thru a background check after a 4473, and fingerprints taken to verify you aren't the correct terrorist, your name stays on the list to thwart your freedoms again in the future.
Why, people have the same names, poof....mind blown , I know.

It was merely an example, and my using it was not meant to imply endorsement.
 
  • #83
It certainly seems that way. 80 people on average are killed everyday in vehicle accidents even with all the safety measures we have now. In Florida I read that drug overdose is the number one cause of death in that state now. More than vehicle accidents and more than by firearms. We are in a drug epidemic with over 25 million people addicted to prescription drugs alone. Now combine that with those who are addicted to illegal drugs and dying from overdoses and its mindboggling yet its rarely mentioned even though people are dying everyday from it.

What I have never quite understood either about those with anti-gun agendas it never seems to matter about the other thousands who are murdered each year by some other method such as bludgeoning, beaten, and stomped to death, strangled, smothered, tortured, stabbed, or poisoned. Those are methods which caused extreme pain and suffering for the victims.

The last stat I remember reading it was around 40-35 percent of homicide victims who were murdered by something other than a firearm. These thousands of victims each year are just as dead as those who were killed by firearms. Around 5 thousand plus are murdered by some other method than a firearm, iirc.

The reason it gives me pause and wondering why so many never mention these victims is those homicides showed the victims suffered a horrible agonizing death before they died. :(

All homicide victims, no matter the tool the murderer chose to use... are equally important. Yet I see so little ever said about those who are murdered in other horrific ways. It makes me feel, rightly or wrongly, the only reason firearm homicide victims matter to the anti-gun group is they use those cases to promote their own biased agendas against guns.

I just wish the media would be fair to both sides of this subject. The national liberal media never tells about any of the countless heroic stories where so many legally armed citizens have saved many lives including their own, their families, employees, police officers, and people they didn't even know.... who they protected from being cruelly beaten or murdered or stopped a rape from happening. I just don't understand why they never report all of those heroic stories but instead they can be found in local newspapers all across our country. We shouldn't have to hunt for those stories that happen way more times than many think they do. So it isn't like the liberal media isn't aware of them because they constantly monitor local news stories in all states so they purposefully never pick the stories up even though they happen hundreds of times a year and maybe even more.

I have respect for anyone who doesn't want a firearm. If they hate guns then so be it, I respect that too. That is their choice but they do not have a right to tell those who do want to protect themselves with a firearm, they cant do it. We have loads of gun laws on the books right now. Gun laws do not prevent crimes anymore than banning alcohol during prohibition stopped alcohol from being consumed. Or when we banned certain drugs making them illegal. In truth all it did was make alcohol and drug runners into millionaires and billionaires. And more and more we are seeing news articles about gun runners now. They are not selling to law abiding citizens. So the gun runners who easily come in because we don't have secure borders will become the new billionaires if we have more restrictive gun laws. just like the Mexican drug lords.

I would make a guess that every firearm used to do murders/attempted murder/ armed robberies/assaults/rapes/ drive-bys in the gang infested large inner cities....were obtained illegally. Or the gang member paid a straw man to purchase the weapon in order to give it to the gang banger that probably already has a felony record.

Another thing I do not understand about some who view the gun as the evil to end all evil is they seem to ignore the fact that every mass murder that happens here is done in a 'gun free zone.' That isn't a coincidence by any means. I feel instead of advertising an establishment is a gun free zone they should put up big signs saying 'Beware! this is not a gun free zone' even if they didn't really have weapons there.

Criminals are always going to be criminals doing violent acts with a firearm or they will use many other weapons available. The only ones who ever abides by the rules of law are the law abiders and they aren't the glaring problem we have in this nation. Unfortunately we have millions who are violent hell bent on breaking the law and that will not change. Taking guns away for law abiding citizens or restricting them having one only gives the criminals the advantage. They love their victims defenseless like sitting ducks. They like nothing better than tighter gun laws for law abiding citizens.

The fact is we have more legal guns purchased than ever before in our history yet overall violent crime is continuing to decline. The only areas where homicides have peaked again are in the big cities saturated with gang violence. If we could remove all of those (5 or 6) violent cities our homicide rate would fall almost to the bottom worldwide. That is where the problem lies yet it is ignored like it has been for decades and it gets more out of control everyday.

IMO

Well said, one little fact that was left out though is that some of these large cities with the highest rates also have the most strict gun control laws.
 
  • #84
Well said, one little fact that was left out though is that some of these large cities with the highest rates also have the most strict gun control laws.

This is a totally specious argument. They have the strict gun control laws because they have the high crime rates, not the other way around. Correlation is not causation.
 
  • #85
Why would I need to?

BUT if I did, I'd just go to armslist.com and agree to the terms of service. The TOS states that you won't participate in illegal activity with your gun. OK! I PROMISE!

While I agree you can do that, as well as Craigslist. I actually bought mine new and did a bg check etc. But I agree that in some instances it is still too easy. But honestly what can you do about it? People are going to buy sell trade items even if they are illegal one way or another. I mean drugs arent legal where I live either but it sure doesn't stop anyone that wants them from being able to obtain them.
 
  • #86
It was merely an example, and my using it was not meant to imply endorsement.

It's interesting how so many people equate any gun control with banning or taking away or "outlawing" guns. Not selling guns to people on the terrorist watch list, for instance, is interpreted as repealing the second amendment. Talking about gun deaths leads to "Liberals want to take all the guns" or "Why don't liberals care about ___ deaths?" (It's possible to care about more than one thing.)

So extreme and such an easy way to not discuss an important issue.

JMO

Au contraire you specifically used it(the bolded part) to support your position and opinion about people that wish to own and have guns and defend their US Constitutional 2nd Amendment Rights.

In fact you used it as a means to attempt to show gun owners are unreasonable in their defense of the Constitution.

Which brings me to my next question. You and Tawny have exchanged posts about your Army military service and even hinted you may have served together somewhere.....Didn't you take an oath to defend the US Constitution? You realize it contains the 2nd Amendment right?
 
  • #87
This is a totally specious argument. They have the strict gun control laws because they have the high crime rates, not the other way around. Correlation is not causation.

Thank you for making our point. Gun control laws don't work. Look at Chicago, Washington DC
Hen/egg, it doesn't matter because it isn't working. The focus and effort is in the wrong places.
 
  • #88
Au contraire you specifically used it(the bolded part) to support your position and opinion about people that wish to own and have guns and defend their US Constitutional 2nd Amendment Rights.

In fact you used it as a means to attempt to show gun owners are unreasonable in their defense of the Constitution.

Which brings me to my next question. You and Tawny have exchanged posts about your Army military service and even hinted you may have served together somewhere.....Didn't you take an oath to defend the US Constitution? You realize it contains the 2nd Amendment right?

Perhaps you overlooked the "for instance" or didn't understand what I meant. I intended it as an example and could just have easily said "Not selling guns for less than $50, for instance, is interpreted as repealing the second amendment." "Not letting kindergarteners take guns to class, for instance, is interpreted as repealing the second amendment." Point being - many people who support gun rights want to shut down any discussion on the issue.

My apologies for being unclear.
 
  • #89
<modsnip>

While I agree you can do that, as well as Craigslist. I actually bought mine new and did a bg check etc. But I agree that in some instances it is still too easy. But honestly what can you do about it? People are going to buy sell trade items even if they are illegal one way or another. I mean drugs arent legal where I live either but it sure doesn't stop anyone that wants them from being able to obtain them.

I think one thing (and this issue would take multiple things happening to solve, this is just one idea among many) is to make sure gun owners know that if you sell a weapon and it is used in a violent crime, YOU will then be held (financially) responsible through fines. First, you'd have to have a law in place saying you're required to report all gun sales, but that would then require some sort of database which is allegedly against the Constitution (it isn't).

Au contraire you specifically used it(the bolded part) to support your position and opinion about people that wish to own and have guns and defend their US Constitutional 2nd Amendment Rights.

In fact you used it as a means to attempt to show gun owners are unreasonable in their defense of the Constitution.

Which brings me to my next question. You and Tawny have exchanged posts about your Army military service and even hinted you may have served together somewhere.....Didn't you take an oath to defend the US Constitution? You realize it contains the 2nd Amendment right?

I don't know why this has become personal but I'll answer. I AM protecting the 2nd Amendment. Point out one instance where I said all guns should be banned. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Perhaps you overlooked the "for instance" or didn't understand what I meant. I intended it as an example and could just have easily said "Not selling guns for less than $50, for instance, is interpreted as repealing the second amendment." "Not letting kindergarteners take guns to class, for instance, is interpreted as repealing the second amendment." Point being - many people who support gun rights want to shut down any discussion on the issue.

My apologies for being unclear.

Saying we shouldn't allow rapid fire high capacity magazine weapons is apparently repealing the 2nd Amendment too. :gaah:
 
  • #90
Now in the spirit of discussion why are you opposed to what you call high capacity firearms/magazines?

And once again, you are projecting/prejudicially profiling by inferring that an individual that owns a self loading, semi automatic firearm with "high capacity magazines" has some propensity for evil.

RSBM
I don't really care if someone has some propensity for evil or not. It's the ability to do said evil I've a problem with. We have way too many people armed with guns out there that I wouldn't trust with a butter knife. Why the hell does somebody need a large capacity mag. for? I would guess hunting squirrels, rabbits, or what they're really designed for in the first place people. You can infer, project, or do what ever you want. It comes down to a rather simple equation, Idiots + high capacity weapons = mess..
 
  • #91
Thank you for making our point. Gun control laws don't work. Look at Chicago, Washington DC
Hen/egg, it doesn't matter because it isn't working. The focus and effort is in the wrong places.

OK nothing works, why bother doing anything? []
 
  • #92
Thank you for making our point. Gun control laws don't work. Look at Chicago, Washington DC
Hen/egg, it doesn't matter because it isn't working. The focus and effort is in the wrong places.

That's a fallacious argument. We have no idea what the rates would be like without the laws, so it's impossible to say whether they are or are not working to decrease the crime rate.

And for what it's worth, Chicago proper has a low murder rate. It's adjacent and nearby jurisdictions that have the high rates.
 
  • #93
RSBM
I don't really care if someone has some propensity for evil or not. It's the ability to do said evil I've a problem with. We have way too many people armed with guns out there that I wouldn't trust with a butter knife. Why the hell does somebody need a large capacity mag. for? I would guess hunting squirrels, rabbits, or what they're really designed for in the first place people. You can infer, project, or do what ever you want. It comes down to a rather simple equation, Idiots + high capacity weapons = mess..

So true. But my bigger issue is adults who are careless and either shoot themselves or their loved ones (sometimes while cleaning their weapons!), or let their children get ahold of their guns. Growing up I was taught very strict safety rules and always assumed anyone who had guns followed the same rules. Nope.
 
  • #94
RSBM
I don't really care if someone has some propensity for evil or not. It's the ability to do said evil I've a problem with. We have way too many people armed with guns out there that I wouldn't trust with a butter knife. Why the hell does somebody need a large capacity mag. for? I would guess hunting squirrels, rabbits, or what they're really designed for in the first place people. You can infer, project, or do what ever you want. It comes down to a rather simple equation, Idiots + high capacity weapons = mess..

So let me get this straight......you are profiling ALL/EVERY gun owner(s) by expecting them to commit a crime and a mass murder crime at that?

I would be in court constantly if I viewed everyone as a criminal just waiting to act. See how that sounds. Plus the ones screaming for gun control in the thought process you mention are the same ones that scream profiling on other issues hand........HYPOCRISY.
We ALL have the inherent capacity in the absolute right? Morality is the lock and chain for one.

So you admit it's a idiot problem, that's a start and addresses the source not the instrument.
 
  • #95
So true. But my bigger issue is adults who are careless and either shoot themselves or their loved ones (sometimes while cleaning their weapons!), or let their children get ahold of their guns. Growing up I was taught very strict safety rules and always assumed anyone who had guns followed the same rules. Nope.

There is no law that is not already on the books to stop carelessness.
 

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