US coal mine collapse traps six-Utah - Thread No. 3

[Buzz Mills]

Is part of the reason for the mine closing due to the fact/ Murray knows his rights & if he shuts the mines down. Nobody can suit him?

Also its a very real possibility that by him giving workers there walking papers that its a good way to shutting the families of the 3 dead / 6 injured & 6 going to be entombed families into submission!

cheko, remember the clamor when the families of the missing miners thought that the mine would be mined again. They wanted it closed permanently. Now it appears they have gotten their wishes, only to say that the reason that Murray is closing the mine is because he needs to hide the evidence of his wrongdoing. Murray is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Murray is in a no-win situation.

The governor's input apparently has spurred Murray's decision to close all of his Utah mines, and lay off all the mine workers.

The miners are in a no-win situation.

Then there is the United Mine Workers Union saying, that from now on, they were going to represent Murray's Crandall Canyon Mine workers.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

I have to agree with you Buzz. The families didn't want the mine mined again. Now they are saying that Murray is closing it so that he could hide the evidence of wrong doing. The thing is, nobody can go back into that mine to investigate any wrongdoing because of the danger. All investigations will be based on witness accounts and probably reviewing what changes were made to that mine when Murray took over.

I can understand the emotions that the families are going through at this time. They are so drained they probably aren't thinking straight and their lawyer is trying to lead them down the path that will make him the most money.

cheko, remember the clamor when the families of the missing miners thought that the mine would be mined again. They wanted it closed permanently. Now it appears they have gotten their wishes, only to say that the reason that Murray is closing the mine is because he needs to hide the evidence of his wrongdoing. Murray is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Murray is in a no-win situation.

The governor's input apparently has spurred Murray's decision to close all of his Utah mines, and lay off all the mine workers.

The miners are in a no-win situation.

Then there is the United Mine Workers Union saying, that from now on, they were going to represent Murray's Crandall Canyon Mine workers.

 

[harleysnana]

cheko, remember the clamor when the families of the missing miners thought that the mine would be mined again. They wanted it closed permanently. Now it appears they have gotten their wishes, only to say that the reason that Murray is closing the mine is because he needs to hide the evidence of his wrongdoing. Murray is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Murray is in a no-win situation.

The governor's input apparently has spurred Murray's decision to close all of his Utah mines, and lay off all the mine workers.

The miners are in a no-win situation.

Then there is the United Mine Workers Union saying, that from now on, they were going to represent Murray's Crandall Canyon Mine workers.

I can honestly say I don't blame Murray.
I'm so tired of people complaining about this.
He is in a no win situation... and no matter what he does
it won't bring the miners back!
Not to mention… these decisions are not JUST his, but somehow
he is the only one that is being hounded.

I lost my mom... a misdiagnosis from a doctor.. we could have sued.
It wouldn't have brought her back... and IMO any money would have
in a sense.. been “blood money” from her death, not to mention how hard
it would have been to have to relive all the details of her death in court.

They need to let them rest in peace.
You can never get closure... but the sooner you let go of the hate and anger
the better off you are in dealing and coping with the loss.

 

[Buzz Mills]

I can honestly say I don't blame Murray.
I'm so tired of people complaining about this.
He is in a no win situation... and no matter what he does
it won't bring the miners back!
Not to mention… these decisions are not JUST his, but somehow
he is the only one that is being hounded.

I lost my mom... a misdiagnosis from a doctor.. we could have sued.
It wouldn't have brought her back... and IMO any money would have
in a sense.. been “blood money” from her death, not to mention how hard
it would have been to have to relive all the details of her death in court.

They need to let them rest in peace.
You can never get closure... but the sooner you let go of the hate and anger
the better off you are in dealing and coping with the loss.

We all have to remember that anger is a very normal part of the grief process, and a lot of times, this anger goes out in any direction readily available at the time. The missing miners families are angry at the mine, the mine owners, and anyone that took part in putting their loved ones in harm's way. Mining is, and will always be, a good-paying risky line of work, but they aren't reflecting on that at this time.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

Lawyer Says Search for Miners Will Continue

August 26th, 2007 @ 1:57pm

Update:
HUNTINGTON, Utah (AP) -- Despite three weeks of drilling and digging that have revealed no signs of life from six men trapped inside a collapsed coal mine, an attorney for families of the miners said Sunday the search will continue.

Colin King, a lawyer for the families, said federal and company officials told him and the miners' relatives that a robotic camera would be lowered into a hole drilled during previous efforts to find the men.

The camera, similar to one used at the World Trade Center in New York City after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, can take images from about 50 yards away.

The announcement came a day after crews pierced the mine shaft with a sixth borehole to find a debris-filled area too small for the men to survive, according to King and the Web site of the federal mine safety agency.

Federal and company officials said a Sunday afternoon news conference was planned on those results. King said a mine company lawyer also told families that a seventh borehole was being considered. That one might be drilled into the kitchen area of the mine, an area where miners are trained to flee in case of collapse.

Source: http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=1699404

 

[Buzz Mills]

SNIP

Colin King, a lawyer for the families, said federal and company officials told him and the miners' relatives that a robotic camera would be lowered into a hole drilled during previous efforts to find the men. The camera, similar to one used at the World Trade Center in New York City after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, can take images from about 50 yards away.

SNIP
Source: http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=1699404

Seems that a robotic camera will have a very difficult time maneuvering, over the coal and rocks, and that would be a very, very, long, umbilical cord.

1414'--------------1586'------------1703'--------1865'------------2039'------------
3rd----------------4th---------------6th----------2nd--------------5th---------------rescue
Hole---------------Hole-------------Hole---------Hole-------------Hole--------------workers
CC147-<-520'->-CC143-<-520'->-CC139<260'>CC137-<-520'->-CC133-<-780'->-CC127
there's 130 feet between crosscuts
Oxygen Levels not sufficient to sustain life.

Robotic camera at WTC
http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/press/01/pr0178.htm

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

I guess at this point they are trying anything they can that won't risk the lives of somebodyelse.

Does anyone recall what area the kitchen in the mine is located?

Seems that a robotic camera will have a very difficult time maneuvering, over the coal and rocks, and that would be a very, very, long, umbilical cord.

1414'--------------1586'------------1703'--------1865'------------2039'------------
3rd----------------4th---------------6th----------2nd--------------5th---------------rescue
Hole---------------Hole-------------Hole---------Hole-------------Hole--------------workers
CC147-<-520'->-CC143-<-520'->-CC139<260'>CC137-<-520'->-CC133-<-780'->-CC127
there's 130 feet between crosscuts
Oxygen Levels not sufficient to sustain life.

 

[Details]

I don't know what Murray did or didn't know about the mine's safety before the collapse (although since it's possible the miners are still alive, sounds to me like they had the right safety and survival equipment with them! - not like that other disaster, where they had, what, 72 hours?). But since then - sounds to me like he's been doing all the right things, and used as a scapegoat and whipping boy for political purposes. The rescue effort has been massive. Murray has been right there - even going into the collapsing tunnel to help bring out the injured and dead rescuers.

Yes, he made a promise, and it's not one he's able to keep, nor should he keep trying. The families should be ashamed if they want more rescuers put at risk after 3 were killed! I know, grief - but I think there's something more to it - JMO, but I think the Union is talking to them, and making things sound more hopeful than they really are, the rescue effort worse than it really is, and like more could be done if only they'd been union, for their own political purposes. The Union wants this to sound like a nasty business owner abandoning living miners underground for profit, and if they can get grieving family members to be saying so, they can get the media to report it. But it's not the cost in cash, it's the cost in lives. I notice also - the reports the mine was going to be reopened - where did they come from? Murray never said that, always has said he has no intention of it - so where are those rumors coming from? This is a tragedy - but one being milked and manipulated, IMO, by the union, for their own profit.

The governor - so long as it's a bad business owner, he doesn't have to face questions about his own responsibility in regulating mine safety.



Of course, until we know more about the reasons for the collapse, the reports from the mine before the collapse, we will not know if this was an unsafe mine that was going to take lives sooner or later - or a mine that the best information we had said was as safe as any other, and an unforseeable accident. Emotions are high, people don't want to accept that sometimes unforseeable accidents happen, and people doing dangerous jobs are killed. But that's the truth.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

HUNTINGTON, Utah (AP) -- Despite three weeks of drilling and digging that have revealed no signs of life from six men trapped inside a collapsed coal mine, an attorney for families of the miners said Sunday the search will continue.

Lawyer Colin King said federal and company officials told him and the miners' relatives that a robotic camera would be lowered into a hole drilled during previous efforts to find the men.

The camera is similar to one used to search within the wreckage of the World Trade Center in New York City after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. It can take images in the darkened cavern from about 50 yards away with the help of a strong light, and has a much wider range than previous cameras used in the search efforts in part because of its ability to crawl through rubble, he said.

The announcement came a day after crews penetrated the mine with a sixth borehole, finding a debris-filled area too small for the men to survive, according to King and the Web site of the federal mine safety agency.

More at link: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1699404

 

[Buzz Mills]

HUNTINGTON, Utah (AP) -- Despite three weeks of drilling and digging that have revealed no signs of life from six men trapped inside a collapsed coal mine, an attorney for families of the miners said Sunday the search will continue.

Lawyer Colin King said federal and company officials told him and the miners' relatives that a robotic camera would be lowered into a hole drilled during previous efforts to find the men.

The camera is similar to one used to search within the wreckage of the World Trade Center in New York City after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. It can take images in the darkened cavern from about 50 yards away with the help of a strong light, and has a much wider range than previous cameras used in the search efforts in part because of its ability to crawl through rubble, he said.

The announcement came a day after crews penetrated the mine with a sixth borehole, finding a debris-filled area too small for the men to survive, according to King and the Web site of the federal mine safety agency.

More at link: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1699404

It should at the very least be an interesting exercise of the camera. Since the 3rd hole at CC147 is where they drilled immediately after finding out that CC137 was partially filled with coal and rock, I would think that is where they will first try. CC147 is, or was, an undamaged area.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

Thank you. Was CC147 the area that had the higher oxygen levels or was that CC143?

It should at the very least be an interesting exercise of the camera. Since the 3rd hole at CC147 is where they drilled immediately after finding out that CC137 was partially filled with coal and rock, I would think that is where they will first try. CC147 is, or was, an undamaged area.

 

[Buzz Mills]

HUNTINGTON, Utah (AP) -- Despite three weeks of drilling and digging that have revealed no signs of life from six men trapped inside a collapsed coal mine, an attorney for families of the miners said Sunday the search will continue.

Lawyer Colin King said federal and company officials told him and the miners' relatives that a robotic camera would be lowered into a hole drilled during previous efforts to find the men.

The camera is similar to one used to search within the wreckage of the World Trade Center in New York City after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. It can take images in the darkened cavern from about 50 yards away with the help of a strong light, and has a much wider range than previous cameras used in the search efforts in part because of its ability to crawl through rubble, he said.

The announcement came a day after crews penetrated the mine with a sixth borehole, finding a debris-filled area too small for the men to survive, according to King and the Web site of the federal mine safety agency.

More at link: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1699404

It should at the very least be an interesting exercise of the camera. Since the 3rd hole at CC147 is where they drilled immediately after finding out that CC137 was partially filled with coal and rock, I would think that is where they will first try. CC147 is, or was, an undamaged area. Seems with the distances involved, they would need to drop down a land line with a transmitter at the end of it, to control the robotic camera. has me wondering what the ranges are of the transmitter, etc., and the range of the transmitter on the camera, etc.. If it has to drag an umbilical cord along with it, that's going to be a really long cord.

Robotic camera at WTC
http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/press/01/pr0178.htm[/b]

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

MINE UPDATE: Recovery effort continues with seventh borehole, robotic camera
Families chose kitchen area for location of new borehole
By Judy Fahys
The Salt Lake Tribune

Article Last Updated: 08/26/2007 03:26:42 PM MDT

Posted: 2:30 PM- Efforts to reach six men trapped in the Crandall Canyon mine were renewed Sunday as federal mining officials told their families a seventh borehole is being drilled into the mine. A robotic camera will also be sent into a previously drilled area.

Officials told the families at a noon briefing that a seventh borehole is now being drilled into the so-called "kitchen" of the mine where the men keep their lunches, said Colin King, an attorney representing a majority of the families.

A robotic camera will also be sent into the previously drilled fourth borehole.

Cesar Sanchez, brother of missing miner Manuel Sanchez, said Murray Energy Vice President Rob Moore asked the families where they wanted to put the seventh borehole. The families agreed on the kitchen area, designated as a place for miners to gather in case of emergency.

"They could be there right now waiting for us to get to them," Cesar Sanchez said Sunday. "It could be the miracle we're waiting for."

The camera could reach the floor of the mine as early as this afternoon, said King. The robot will have less than an inch clearance as it is lowered down into the mine through the fourth borehole, but experts are confident it can work, he said.

"We're very excited about it," said King. "The families are thrilled to hear this.

More at link: http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_6726285

 

[Buzz Mills]

The mechanized prowlers had tethers with a range of 100 feet, far out-stripping the fire department's seven-foot camera wands.

While CRASAR robots helped find five victims and another set of remains, Murphy expressed regret that they hadn't been more successful. The marsupial concept still remains promising, especially to handle remote tether management, says Murphy.

In the future, tether-free robots enabled by artificial intelligence would guide themselves through collapsed buildings or other difficult terrain, Murphy believes. She also hopes to develop algorithms that could distinguish colors and shapes to help robots locate victims, living or dead.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

Very interesting. Thank you.

The mechanized prowlers had tethers with a range of 100 feet, far out-stripping the fire department's seven-foot camera wands.

While CRASAR robots helped find five victims and another set of remains, Murphy expressed regret that they hadn't been more successful. The marsupial concept still remains promising, especially to handle remote tether management, says Murphy.

In the future, tether-free robots enabled by artificial intelligence would guide themselves through collapsed buildings or other difficult terrain, Murphy believes. She also hopes to develop algorithms that could distinguish colors and shapes to help robots locate victims, living or dead.

 

[Buzz Mills]

Very interesting. Thank you.

Of course, here we are talking about 2,000 feet or so; the depth of the hole, plus any distance the crawler goes down the tunnel. There's 130 feet between crosscuts, so there is a lot of distance involved. It will be interesting to see how far the technology has advanced since the WTC. It's all a matter of weight, and the power required onboard to drive all electronics, which ups the weight, and size, etc.. This situation would dictate a tether free robotic camera, but that's a lot of added electronics, adding weight and size, etc,..

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

Robot Will Be Lowered Into Mine Through 7th Hole

(KUTV) HUNTINGTON - Officials at the Crandall Canyon mine, where six workers remain underground, confirmed on Sunday that they will drill yet another bore hole into the mountain -- and lower a robotic crawler, which will have better mobility to gather information.

During a news conference Sunday afternoon, Jack Kuzar, of the U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration, confirmed that a seventh hole will be drilled -- despite previous indications that the sixth hole, which was completed Saturday, would be the last.

Examination of that bore hole found no space at all for any miners to survive.

Robotic expert Robin Murphy said that there are two cameras on the robotic crawler and that the equipment can climb over some rubble. She also warned that the chances of getting any helpful information from the robot is less than 50 percent.

"This is a long shot," Kuzar said.

Officials mentioned that the decision to drill another hole and lower the robot was, in part, to accommodate the miners' families -- who have continued to press for further digging.

Bob Murray, co-owner of the mine, also spoke during the news conference.

More at link: http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_218103238.html

 

[Sundayrain]

Thank you for posting. I hadn't heard this.
The pictures are so tearful of the rescue team.
Hearing about the crew running the drills, eating no food,
barely sleeping ......so sad.
I know the families won't have any closure until these men are found.
God give us faith, and answer our prayers.

I think drill, and drill, if it takes a year of drilling.......but, never give it up.

 

[Buzz Mills]

Murray's willingness to drill another hole in an attempt to try to appease the families is admirable.

The use of the robotic camera is also unique in mine rescue. As Robin Murphy mentioned the odds of obtaining meaningful information is low, but perhaps this attempt will provide an impetus for future development of the robotic camera in the area of mine rescue.

She said the robotic camera is capable of climbing over some rubble. An almost filled tunnel is a mountain of rubble.

I don't know the present status of the robotic camera development, but for certain, the one used at the WTC, wasn't at all capable of this challenge.

They need a mini moon rover, with incredible climbing ability.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

I agree. It is good of Murray to go along with allowing the families to even pick the location where they want the 7th hole bored. I am very interested in seeing what the camera is able to do down in the mine. It's worth a shot doing this and hoping it can answer some of the questions the families have. I wish my best to them all.

Murray's willingness to drill another hole in an attempt to try to appease the families is admirable.

The use of the robotic camera is also unique in mine rescue. As Robin Murphy mentioned the odds of obtaining meaningful information is low, but perhaps this attempt will provide an impetus for future development of the robotic camera in the area of mine rescue.

She said the robotic camera is capable of climbing over some rubble. An almost filled tunnel is a mountain of rubble.

I don't know the present status of the robotic camera development, but for certain, the one used at the WTC, wasn't at all capable of this challenge.

They need a mini moon rover, with incredible climbing ability.