Found Deceased UT-5 -Year-Old Elizabeth Shelley Found Deceased (UNCLE ARRESTED) #4

[oviedo]

Are we expecting autopsy results today?

it seems soon? IMO - i think it may be a day or two at least?

 

[MsBetsy]

Are we expecting autopsy results today?

I'm wondering if they will be sealed.
I think in some states the coroner can request they not be released to the public, especially if there is SA involved. I'm not sure how that works, though, so I guess we'll have to wait and see. Imo

 

[K9Enzo]

@LietKynes Good post.

I defended mom but cannot argue the points you made.

 

[wary]

Okay—mark this down as yet another case of complete failure of searching with dogs. Whether it’s the dogs, the dog training, the dog handlers, or the weather—in many cases dogs are completely useless.

That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be used—they can practically work miracles sometimes. But we do have to be very careful about drawing conclusions from ‘dogs not finding anything.’

In this case he was on foot the whole way. A dog doing what we’d expect of it should have been able to lay out his entire path from the home to the first place he was seen without Lizzy. For whatever reason, that didn’t happen.

 

[MassGuy]

From the press conference yesterday, they indicated that the deal had been made with the county prosecutors with input from LE and that they expected the deal to be honored as they were "men of their word". I also wonder if in this case, where the family of the victim is also the family of the accused, the death penalty may not provide as much closure for the family as it might in other cases.

Yeah, I agree with you.

This case is horrific, but because the perpetrator is family, I don’t think the death penalty would have been something that most of them (or even any of them) would support.

That kind of thing would further tear the family apart.

 

[MassGuy]

Okay—mark this down as yet another case of complete failure of searching with dogs. Whether it’s the dogs, the dog training, the dog handlers, or the weather—in many cases dogs are completely useless.

That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be used—they can practically work miracles sometimes. But we do have to be very careful about drawing conclusions from ‘dogs not finding anything.’

In this case he was on foot the whole way. A dog doing what we’d expect of it should have been able to lay out his entire path from the home to the first place he was seen without Lizzy. For whatever reason, that didn’t happen.

I said this in a previous thread, but these dogs are a tool, and tools fail from time to time.

They aren’t infallible, although they are still invaluable in many cases.

This isn’t the first time they have failed to locate a body, and it certainly won’t be the last.

 

[kiaatcher]

We need to remember that it has been raining daily since Saturday, and would have easily destroyed the scent. That's no one's fault. LCPD did an amazing job with this case.

 

[wary]

I said this in a previous thread, but these dogs are a tool, and tools fail from time to time.

They aren’t infallible, although they are still invaluable in many cases.

This isn’t the first time they have failed to locate a body, and it certainly won’t be the last.

Exactly right. And of course, the cases where tools fail get more attention. Especially in cases where there’s no foul play—if dogs lead right to a missing person, the case might not even get any attention besides a brief word on the local news.

I do wonder why the lack of success in this case. Maybe there just aren’t enough trained bloodhounds around?

 

[oviedo]

Yeah, I agree with you.

This case is horrific, but because the perpetrator is family, I don’t think the death penalty would have been something that most of them (or even any of them) would support.

That kind of thing would further tear the family apart.

I agree - it seems this is the best outcome possible now that the family can bury her. IMO

 

[alwaysonmymind]

No, they can’t put the death penalty back on the table after agreeing to drop it in exchange for credible information that led to her recovery.

Kind of like when you were a kid and agreed to trade your ice cream for a friends bag of chips. Remember saying ‘no take backs’ just before the exchange took place?

However, it would be different if the map AW made had sent LE on a wild goose chase with no recovery. But it wasn’t so here we are.

 

[LietKynes]

IMO, I'm certain the mom never thought her brother would use her kitchen knife and a pvc pipe to murder her 5 year old daughter after being invited over. If she had left the little girl alone with him, then that's another story but she didn't.

Regardless of how tough some in society might be on her right now, it won't compare to how tough she will be on herself, IMO.

BBM

Re. the bolded portion : Yes, she may have had some misgivings about him already.
AW may have been bothering her for some extra cash, as well.
Probably ate what he wanted at her home, and other relatives' homes as well. That can get old fast.

A friend of mine cannot trust her adult son (21 yrs. old with substance abuse and job issues) in her home. Sounds harsh -- but it is what it is.

 

[MassGuy]

Exactly right. And of course, the cases where tools fail get more attention. Especially in cases where there’s no foul play—if dogs lead right to a missing person, the case might not even get any attention besides a brief word on the local news.

I do wonder why the lack of success in this case. Maybe there just aren’t enough trained bloodhounds around?

I don’t think a lack of dogs is an explanation.

This was a major search effort, one that involved people from all over the state. If they needed better trained dogs, they could have brought them in.

Someone mentioned rain earlier, and I think that’s a pretty good possibility.

 

[JustEve]

I think it’s fair to say from what we’ve seen and read that this family was disfunctional at best...

Grandpa tells us he was abandoned by mother at 5, in and out of foster homes, picked up and dropped by his own mother as and when it suited.

It teaches us that we are, in part, a product of our upbringing and if people raised their children with love, respect, care and compassion and also disciplined them adequately when needed I truly believe crimes like this would be so less heard of.

Please don’t think I’m condoning AW and his actions, they’re evil and disgusting, but I do believe his own parents share a part in the “blame” of what made him become the monster he turned out to be. I think there had to be many missed opportunities to get this person the help or incarceration he desperately needed before it came to this.

We can’t say without more info if JW failed to protect her daughter, we don’t know the ins and outs, at the moment I feel nothing but sorrow for what she must be going through.

I agree with you completely, especially with the BBM part.
I feel so deeply sorry for beautiful baby girl Lizzy and her family.

As you said, we all are products of our parents and, from what I´ve read, I think AW´s environment (his irresponsible mother, in a first place) had deeply and utterly failed him as a young boy.

You simply cannot raise an individual so disturbed that he is capable of such bestiality without abandoning him at a very young age, abusing him and literally failing him in every possible way.

Love is all it takes, in the beginning of a child´s life, to raise a human being capable of empathy.
Without love, the empathy is never developed, so you are raising a psychopath.
That is, in my opinion, what have happened there.

I am not condoning AW, also, but I think his family was highly dysfunctional and this horror could maybe have been prevented.

By whom, I am not so sure.

Without supportive, loving parent in the start, it takes a lot of therapists´time/ patients´money to succeed. Society maybe, parole officers... I am not so sure and, being a foreigner, I don´t know that much about US´ legal system.

But this kid was deeply depraved, his needs thoroughly unmet (when he was a kid), and years of his "empty life", as his granddad calls this, have amounted to such a horrid murder of an innocent 5- year old.

He needed to be in some correction/ prevention program years ago before his issues amounted to that degree.

It is such a horrific, bestial, unbelievable murder.
Such a terrible tragedy. I´m so, so saddened by all of this.

 

[oviedo]

Exactly right. And of course, the cases where tools fail get more attention. Especially in cases where there’s no foul play—if dogs lead right to a missing person, the case might not even get any attention besides a brief word on the local news.

I do wonder why the lack of success in this case. Maybe there just aren’t enough trained bloodhounds around?

Dogs are Still the Best Way to Find a Corpse | Smart News | Smithsonian

interesting read - frankly after reading this I'm amazed they find as much as they do. IMO

 

[KentuckyMama]

Delete. Don't know if we can discuss his Facebook account anymore.

 

[Tealgrove]

Okay—mark this down as yet another case of complete failure of searching with dogs. Whether it’s the dogs, the dog training, the dog handlers, or the weather—in many cases dogs are completely useless.

That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be used—they can practically work miracles sometimes. But we do have to be very careful about drawing conclusions from ‘dogs not finding anything.’

In this case he was on foot the whole way. A dog doing what we’d expect of it should have been able to lay out his entire path from the home to the first place he was seen without Lizzy. For whatever reason, that didn’t happen.

Lots of factors come into play in how scent dogs work.

I do scent training with my dogs and I find it absolutely incredible what they find and how they find it.

I have labs and golden retrievers (not yellow labs). My labs are hunting stock dogs. My goldens are hunting stock and show stock.

Without wavering I can tell you that my hunting stock golden retriever and her nose is incredible. She finds everything. She uses the wind and she is tireless. As a handler I know how to use the wind. I move her back and forth into the wind. If they are upwind they aren't going to smell anything. Depending on the cover and the conditions she won't find stuff. If its dry she will. If it's dewy it's harder.

Here's the other thing. Dogs have to keep their mouths closed to smell. If they are overworked and panting they won't be able to pick up scent. If it's really hot and they are panting, they won't pick up scent. High cover will cause them to pant and not be able to keep their mouths closed to smell. So, tired dogs that are overworked won't be able to work effectively. You need more than one dog and spell them out to find scent on this type of scale. If there weren't enough dogs to do the job then sending the same dogs out there for hours and hours will be unproductive.

There is also a difference between tracking dogs and "scent dogs". There are dogs that are trained on specific scents (i.e., cadaver dogs).

I guess I wonder at times why certain breeds of dogs are used as opposed to others. I love Shepherds and I love Malinois but - my hunting dogs work better. For tracking you are looking for the blood hounds. For scent, my money is on high drive retrievers or spaniels. These are the dogs that find stuff and won't give up if they don't.

I think it's unfair to categorize dogs as being useless. Dogs have saved many a life and found many cadavers that otherwise would not have been found.

Conditions matter. It's that simple. Wind matters, wet conditions vs. dry matters. Swirling wind, high cover, short cover, certain weeds can cause trouble too. Too much scent can be confusing.

IMO, and from experience - dogs are not useless. They provide a valuable tool in finding what humans cannot.

If I'm missing one day, I want a pack of golden retrievers looking for me.

MOO

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Exactly. They will likely have enough info. I do wonder tho if there is enough horrifying results and evidence of a SA will he try to make a deal? I will plead and spare a Trial "If" forensic results are kept sealed???

Been wondering that “If” all night/day...
MOO

 

[wary]

Lots of factors come into play in how scent dogs work.

I do scent training with my dogs and I find it absolutely incredible what they find and how they find it.

I have labs and golden retrievers (not yellow labs). My labs are hunting stock dogs. My goldens are hunting stock and show stock.

Without wavering I can tell you that my hunting stock golden retriever and her nose is incredible. She finds everything. She uses the wind and she is tireless. As a handler I know how to use the wind. I move her back and forth into the wind. If they are upwind they aren't going to smell anything. Depending on the cover and the conditions she won't find stuff. If its dry she will. If it's dewy it's harder.

There is also a difference between tracking dogs and "scent dogs". There are dogs that are trained on specific scents (i.e., cadaver dogs).

I guess I wonder at times why certain breeds of dogs are used as opposed to others. I love Shepherds and I love Malinois but - my hunting dogs work better. For tracking you are looking for the blood hounds. For scent, my money is on high drive retrievers or spaniels. These are the dogs that find stuff and won't give up if they don't.

I think it's unfair to categorize dogs as being useless. Dogs have saved many a life and found many cadavers that otherwise would not have been found.

Conditions matter. It's that simple. Wind matters, wet conditions vs. dry matters. Swirling wind, high cover, short cover, certain weeds can cause trouble too. Too much scent can be confusing.

IMO, and from experience - dogs are not useless. They provide a valuable tool in finding what humans cannot.

If I'm missing one day, I want a pack of golden retrievers looking for me.

MOO

I did not say that dogs are useless. I said that in this case they were useless. And, as I said before, people need to be very cautious about drawing any conclusions from the fact that dogs did not find a trail.

 

[Bravo]

If u have questions about a post or find it in violation simply report it. Mods cant be everywhere and if u let them know they will address. Work the problem

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Lots of factors come into play in how scent dogs work.

I do scent training with my dogs and I find it absolutely incredible what they find and how they find it.

I have labs and golden retrievers (not yellow labs). My labs are hunting stock dogs. My goldens are hunting stock and show stock.

Without wavering I can tell you that my hunting stock golden retriever and her nose is incredible. She finds everything. She uses the wind and she is tireless. As a handler I know how to use the wind. I move her back and forth into the wind. If they are upwind they aren't going to smell anything. Depending on the cover and the conditions she won't find stuff. If its dry she will. If it's dewy it's harder.

Here's the other thing. Dogs have to keep their mouths closed to smell. If they are overworked and panting they won't be able to pick up scent. If it's really hot and they are panting, they won't pick up scent. High cover will cause them to pant and not be able to keep their mouths closed to smell. So, tired dogs that are overworked won't be able to work effectively. You need more than one dog and spell them out to find scent on this type of scale. If there weren't enough dogs to do the job then sending the same dogs out there for hours and hours will be unproductive.

There is also a difference between tracking dogs and "scent dogs". There are dogs that are trained on specific scents (i.e., cadaver dogs).

I guess I wonder at times why certain breeds of dogs are used as opposed to others. I love Shepherds and I love Malinois but - my hunting dogs work better. For tracking you are looking for the blood hounds. For scent, my money is on high drive retrievers or spaniels. These are the dogs that find stuff and won't give up if they don't.

I think it's unfair to categorize dogs as being useless. Dogs have saved many a life and found many cadavers that otherwise would not have been found.

Conditions matter. It's that simple. Wind matters, wet conditions vs. dry matters. Swirling wind, high cover, short cover, certain weeds can cause trouble too. Too much scent can be confusing.

IMO, and from experience - dogs are not useless. They provide a valuable tool in finding what humans cannot.

If I'm missing one day, I want a pack of golden retrievers looking for me.

MOO

Wish I could “like” this a million times!! But, I’m biased in this subject LOL
MOO