GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #1

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  • #581
I am as well. Surely someone didn't try to redress her before EMT arrived?

A remorseful husband might have had last minute second thoughts about his wife's nudity and put on an undershirt. Brad Cooper's wife was found with nothing but a sports bra. An alternative is that she threw her clothes on the floor, which doesn't fit with what we know.

I'd go with he dressed her.
 
  • #582
Maybe Michelle wanted to wash herself off and because she probably couldn't take a shower yet because of the surgery, she just went in the tub, turned the faucet on for some water, turned the water off and while doing these things- had an arythmia (sp) attack- passed out and died???? She was suppose to have drugs in her system? Maybe she was confused, also. I had a friend that was coming out of her shower and just dropped dead right there- dead before she hit the floor because of her heart.
Don't know, but I need more evidence. Not saying he's not guilty- just don't know this far into the trial.
 
  • #583
Maybe Michelle wanted to wash herself off and because she probably couldn't take a shower yet because of the surgery, she just went in the tub, turned the faucet on for some water, turned the water off and while doing these things- had an arythmia (sp) attack- passed out and died???? She was suppose to have drugs in her system? Maybe she was confused, also. I had a friend that was coming out of her shower and just dropped dead right there- dead before she hit the floor because of her heart.
Don't know, but I need more evidence. Not saying he's not guilty- just don't know this far into the trial.

Doesn't it seem improbable that she would pass out and end up lying flat on her back in the tub with her head beneath the faucet? That would require quite an unusual body rotation at the moment that the heart stopped ...and then the legs would have to conveniently fall in place.
 
  • #584
Doesn't it seem improbable that she would pass out and end up lying flat on her back in the tub with her head beneath the faucet? That would require quite an unusual body rotation at the moment that the heart stopped ...and then the legs would have to conveniently fall in place.

Improbable. Maybe, but not impossible. I wasn't there to see how her body was situated at the time she may have had an attack. She may have been so confused that she didn't know where she was sitting/laying at the time (the wrong way). Not trying to argue- just trying to suggest different scenarios. :twocents:
 
  • #585
Was this mentioned/questioned by either side or a juror question?

I don't know. I was just wondering.

There is no question that she drowned.
IMO it would be easier to do with the faucet right there.
Maybe me saying,"staged " is incorrect.
I have had plastic surgery.
A- Even loopy on drugs I would not lay in the tub with my head near the faucet. Just by HABIT.
B- I was told to only shower until my follow up.
C- Tubs and drugs don't mix... this could be why surgeons say no baths... if you cannot stand up and wash off do not enter the water!!

I do believe one could fall asleep /drown.
8 days after surgery I just don't believe she could have been THAT. out of it.

I think most women are on the mend by that point. Moo.
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  • #586
I don't know. I was just wondering.

There is no question that she drowned.
IMO it would be easier to do with the faucet right there.
Maybe me saying,"staged " is incorrect.
I have had plastic surgery.
A- Even loopy on drugs I would not lay in the tub with my head near the faucet. Just by HABIT.
B- I was told to only shower until my follow up.
C- Tubs and drugs don't mix... this could be why surgeons say no baths... if you cannot stand up and wash off do not enter the water!!

I do believe one could fall asleep /drown.
8 days after surgery I just don't believe she could have been THAT. out of it.

I think most women are on the mend by that point. Moo.
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BBM Yes- sounds logical. Is there a toxicology report yet?
 
  • #587
BBM Yes- sounds logical. Is there a toxicology report yet?

Yes. No single drug in her system was out of range /toxic.
They were all at a "therapeutic "level.
However the combination of what was found could have been a "toxic mix "In other words the drugs potentiated each other.

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  • #588
Daughter Alexis said that the police report on the incident was 1 1/2 paragraphs long. There was no immediate investigation. It reminds me of Drew Peterson who's hanging out in prison at the moment.

As for the clothing, I opined back a bit that, if he drowned her, he fed her a bunch of medications, including Ambien in the morning. She had enough drugs to be out of it and he drew a bath and carried her into the bathroom and put her in the tub backwards.

Since nobody was interviewed immediately after the event, memory plays a big part here. As far as we know to date:

Ada found her mother in the tub under water fully clothed.

Kristi, the first neighbor on the scene, found her in the black long-sleeved shirt and nothing on her lower parts.

Kristi and Angie observed her with the white tank-type top on and nothing else.

In between, MM was alone in the bathroom with his drowned wife. He probably took off the clothing in those short times he was alone.

How often does your regular person get involved in such a situation? I think their memories would be more vivid.

The policeman on today (didn't catch his name), faces crises on a regular basis. I doubt there were any detailed descriptions of the scene and a description of Michelle's clothing in 1 1/2 paragraphs. I wonder where his memories of this came from. He doesn't even remember a pink towel the neighbors put over her lower body to await the EMT's.

I'm on the fence about the clothing issue. I'm waiting to hear from the other LEO and the EMT's. Let's see what they have to say.
 
  • #589
I'm not sure what the jury options are. I think he will be found guilty of ""negligence " only.
While I do believe his plan was for her to die, I don't think he will be found guilty of murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

My mother in law had surgery for lung cancer (non-smoker)
2 days after surgery she was on deaths door step. 8 days after surgery she was home and cooking dinner.
Had this occurred 2-3 days after surgery I'd find it more believable.
What happened to this woman's underwear /pants?
Who takes a bath with LDS underwear, bra, and shirt but no bottoms?

Just does not add up!
It sounds like her bottom was washed and no clothing., panties bottoms were found was because there was a reason!
The same reason another bed was brought into the master bedroom. Moo
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  • #590
I'm not sure what the jury options are. I think he will be found guilty of ""negligence " only.
While I do believe his plan was for her to die, I don't think he will be found guilty of murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

My mother in law had surgery for lung cancer (non-smoker)
2 days after surgery she was on deaths door step. 8 days after surgery she was home and cooking dinner.
Had this occurred 2-3 days after surgery I'd find it more believable.
What happened to this woman's underwear /pants?
Who takes a bath with LDS underwear, bra, and shirt but no bottoms?

Just does not add up!
It sounds like her bottom was washed and no clothing., panties bottoms were found was because there was a reason!
The same reason another bed was brought into the master bedroom. Moo
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Why was the other bed in the bedroom, anyway? More comfortable for Michelle because of her surgery?
 
  • #591
Why was the other bed in the bedroom, anyway? More comfortable for Michelle because of her surgery?

I guess!
Very suspicious to me for plastic surgery. Had it been a hip replacement ... ok.
It just sounds like he planned for her to die and didn't want her bowels to empty in his bed where he planned to sleep with Gypsy.
moo
Add in the fact that she had no clothes below the waist and...
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  • #592
They're making such a big deal about the address on the 911 call being clear when played in slow motion. Are 911 operators supposed to take the time to re-play all call in slow motion before dispatching emergency personnel to the address they're given? Or are they supposed to forward the recording of the call on to someone else who can listen to it in slow motion?

Or are 911 operators supposed to have magical powers to be able to automatically hear in slow motion? Only when needed (do they miraculously know this some how?) or should this be done on every 911 call they answer?
 
  • #593
  • #594
Wonder if he rented it to prevent it getting soiled in the event that she died?!!

Who rents a hospital bed for plastic surgery?
Surely those 15 pillows could have kept her head elevated!

Moo - the hospital bed shows premeditation.

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bbm

The propping-up with pillows happens every day/night during care for facial, neck, & sometimes breast surgery in homes all over the country. If you don't have enuff pillows, go to Target & buy 4 or 5 more for $20 -- $30 -- or roll up bath towels or blankets -- ya don't need to rent a bed.

And yes, snap, it smacks of premeditation -- but the defense could say that since he was a doctor (or was he??), he knew how important bed rest could be, etc., etc. Yeah, like he suddenly cared about her well-being...
 
  • #595
Doesn't it seem improbable that she would pass out and end up lying flat on her back in the tub with her head beneath the faucet? That would require quite an unusual body rotation at the moment that the heart stopped ...and then the legs would have to conveniently fall in place.

Agreed, otto -- also, her head would have to avoid hitting the faucet on the way down to the water. She could have been semi-conscious as she hit the water, and she could have straightened-out her legs, but all that seems fairly complicated, as you already stated above.

Nah, it just doesn't sit right, does it??
 
  • #596
I'm not sure what the jury options are. I think he will be found guilty of ""negligence " only.
While I do believe his plan was for her to die, I don't think he will be found guilty of murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

My mother in law had surgery for lung cancer (non-smoker)
2 days after surgery she was on deaths door step. 8 days after surgery she was home and cooking dinner.
Had this occurred 2-3 days after surgery I'd find it more believable.
What happened to this woman's underwear /pants?
Who takes a bath with LDS underwear, bra, and shirt but no bottoms?

Just does not add up!
It sounds like her bottom was washed and no clothing., panties bottoms were found was because there was a reason!
The same reason another bed was brought into the master bedroom. Moo
Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

bbm

Good points all, snap -- LDS underwear is very personal, and is not to be shown to or seen by folks other than one's spouse or parents (if a minor). I am not LDS, but I asked my LDS friend tonight at a little get-together of friends, and that's what she said. Further, she said he had never worn her special underwear in the bath -- it would have been quite inappropriate, she said. Spec. underwear is quite a "no-fooling around" subject, and those items are to be treated with respect & reverence at all times.

Another of those "this just doesn't make sense" items in this thing...

And it is indeed difficult to try not to think of D. Peterson when thinking of this bathtub incident.... Maddening...
 
  • #597
I'd be willing to bet Alexis warned her mother not to bathe alone. (Heck maybe she told her not to let dad help?)
Alexis probably bathed her mother the day she left, therefore mom had no reason to even be in the tub the day after she left.
As a jury member I'd have to find him guilty of something.
I'm just not sure how much they will be told.

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  • #598
bbm

Good points all, snap -- LDS underwear is very personal, and is not to be shown to or seen by folks other than one's spouse or parents (if a minor). I am not LDS, but I asked my LDS friend tonight at a little get-together of friends, and that's what she said. Further, she said he had never worn her special underwear in the bath -- it would have been quite inappropriate, she said. Spec. underwear is quite a "no-fooling around" subject, and those items are to be treated with respect & reverence at all times.

Another of those "this just doesn't make sense" items in this thing...

And it is indeed difficult to try not to think of D. Peterson when thinking of this bathtub incident.... Maddening...

I agree with your thoughts.
I am not LDS, but I tend to think the same.
Thinking of all the recent bathroom deaths in the news... Peterson, Travis Alexander and the wife of the twin ... the tan spray death ... (Adam Kaufman)
Makes me wanna avoid the bathroom!!!

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  • #599
Just found this. Crazy. Wonder if the lady is telling the truth.


"MacNeill also had an affair with another woman for several months about two years before his wife's death, according to prosecutors. She told her psychiatrist she was having an affair with a "serial killer," an affidavit states. She said MacNeill told her he'd tried to kill his mother when he was young, but his sister called 911 and medical personnel revived her. He also said he'd killed his brother in a bathtub, told the woman he wanted to kill a daughter and offered to kill the woman's husband "to relieve her of an abusive relationship," an arrest warrant states.

MacNeill told the woman he had written an article in the Journal of American Medical Association titled, "It's Over, Debbie." The article was written by a doctor promoting "mercy killing," who euthanized a patient with an overdose of a sedative pain killer but was never held accountable, according to court documents.

"The defendant said he, too, had killed and discussed ways in which he could take another's life without being caught," prosecutors wrote in the charging documents filed Friday."

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=21854376

BBM I know of this article. I read it a couple of years ago for some research on my Euthanasia literature review for my research methods class in college. The article was published in 1988 with "anonymous" as the author. They never found out who the author was (was not released by the JAMA). Could it have been Macneill?? When was he a resident? Anyone know?
This was a very controversial paper in 1988- people didn't talk about euthanasia at that time and it was considered murder at that time.
Anyone could claim to be the author of this article. The only people who would really know would be the JAMA and the person who actually wrote it.
---------------------------------------------------------
-------anonymous account published in JAMA ("It's Over,
Debbie"), a physician claimed to have injected morphine
sulfate sedative into a patient who appeared to be in pain,
thereby causing her death.'----------------------------------
http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1757&context=facpub
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...apRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9hIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6870,5224855
-----------------------------------------------
This is the article:
It's Over, Debbie

The call came in the middle of the night. As a gynecology resident rotating through a large, private hospital, I had come to detest telephone calls, because invariably I would be up for several hours and would not feel good the next day. However, duty called, so I answered the phone. A nurse informed me that a patient was having difficulty getting rest, could I please see her. She was on 3 North. That was the gynecologic-oncology unit, not my usual duty station. As I trudged along, bumping sleepily against walls and corners and not believing I was up again, I tried to imagine what I might find at the end of my walk. Maybe an elderly woman with an anxiety reaction, or perhaps something particularly horrible.

I grabbed the chart from the nurses station on my way to the patient's room, and the nurse gave me some hurried details: a 20-year-old girl named Debbie was dying of ovarian cancer. She was having unrelenting vomiting apparently as the result of an alcohol drip administered for sedation. Hmmm, I thought. Very sad. As I approached the room I could hear loud, labored breathing. I entered and saw an emaciated, dark-haired woman who appeared much older than 20. She was receiving nasal oxygen, had an IV, and was sitting in bed suffering from what was obviously severe air hunger. The chart noted her weight at 80 pounds. A second woman, also dark-haired but of middle age, stood at her right, holding her hand. Both looked up as I entered. The room seemed filled with the patient's desperate effort to survive. Her eyes were hollow, and she had suprasternal and intercostal retractions with her rapid inspirations. She had not eaten or slept in two days. She had not responded to chemotherapy and was being given supportive care only. It was a gallows scene, a cruel mockery of her youth and unfulfilled potential. Her only words to me were, "Let's get this over with."

I retreated with my thoughts to the nurses station. The patient was tired and needed rest. I could not give her health, but I could give her rest. I asked the nurse to draw 20 mg of morphine sulfate into a syringe. Enough, I thought, to do the job. I took the syringe into the room and told the two women I was going to give Debbie something that would let her rest and to say good-bye. Debbie looked at the syringe, then laid her head on the pillow with her eyes open, watching what was left of the world. I injected the morphine intravenously and watched to see if my calculations on its effects would be correct. Within seconds her breathing slowed to a normal rate, her eyes closed, and her features softened as she seemed restful at last. The older woman stroked the hair of the now-sleeping patient. I waited for the inevitable next effect of depressing the respiratory drive. With clocklike certainty, within four minutes the breathing rate slowed even more, then became irregular, then ceased. The dark-haired woman stood erect and seemed relieved.

It's over, Debbie.
--Name withheld by request
From A Piece of My Mind, a feature in the Jan. 8, 1988, issue of JAMA (Vol 259, No. 2). Edited by Roxanne K. Young, Associate Editor.

http://web.missouri.edu/~bondesonw/Debbie.HTM
------------------------------------------------------------------
Very interesting. Thanks for that info. :seeya:
 
  • #600
Okay, a couple of things.

Re: CPR purpose
Yes, the chest compressions are to imitate normal circulation in order to get oxygen to the brain. The brain is the organ most sensitive to lack of oxygen. And those compressions have to be hard enough to compress the chest 1 1/2 - 2 inches in order to squeeze blood out of the heart. Which is why often people get broken ribs during CPR.

Proper compressions could indeed cause an oozing of blood from an incision. It actually would mean the compressions were done properly. Also, FWIW in the overall only 10% of people given CPR survive. But it is always worth a try.

Being older now I don't get certified any longer, but I believe the protocol nowadays is for 30 rapid compressions per cycle and don't even bother with the breaths.

You are still to tilt the head back and clear the airway. I didn't hear anyone ask any questions about if this was done after she was removed from the tub.


Greenish appearance of face: Could have been from the aftermath of facial surgery. Green color is usually fading ecchymosis (black and blue mark) which is bleeding in capillaries underneath the skin.

To answer a question, her eyes were no longer bandaged. She had recovered enough to have been out and eaten at a restaurant with her daughter per the 20/20 broadcast.


Toxicology levels: Let us HOPE this information stays in the evidence and is not somehow thrown out like too much other stuff has. Her level of Ambien, while not toxic, should NOT have been as high as it was at time of death. It is a drug that is cleared fairly quickly from the body. Many who take it report waking up at 4:00am or 5:00am because it has worn off. Why would she have had a "therapeutic level" late in the morning? She had spoken to her daughter that morning to report feeling pretty good. Did not sound like she was planning to take Ambien during the daytime that day.


This guy was clever. But not clever enough. Just based on the few jury questions this far, I am heartened that someone seems to know what to ask. I am hoping to see more and more jury questions!

This may not be a sizzling trial. I just want to see the Prosecutor bring every single little piece of circumstantial evidence in that he can.
 
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