GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #1

[gngr~snap]

Okay, a couple of things.

Re: CPR purpose
Yes, the chest compressions are to imitate normal circulation in order to get oxygen to the brain. The brain is the organ most sensitive to lack of oxygen. And those compressions have to be hard enough to compress the chest 1 1/2 - 2 inches in order to squeeze blood out of the heart. Which is why often people get broken ribs during CPR.

Proper compressions could indeed cause an oozing of blood from an incision. It actually would mean the compressions were done properly. Also, FWIW in the overall only 10% of people given CPR survive. But it is always worth a try.

Being older now I don't get certified any longer, but I believe the protocol nowadays is for 30 rapid compressions per cycle and don't even bother with the breaths.

You are still to tilt the head back and clear the airway. I didn't hear anyone ask any questions about if this was done after she was removed from the tub.


Greenish appearance of face: Could have been from the aftermath of facial surgery. Green color is usually fading ecchymosis (black and blue mark) which is bleeding in capillaries underneath the skin.

To answer a question, her eyes were no longer bandaged. She had recovered enough to have been out and eaten at a restaurant with her daughter per the 20/20 broadcast.


Toxicology levels: Let us HOPE this information stays in the evidence and is not somehow thrown out like too much other stuff has. Her level of Ambien, while not toxic, should NOT have been as high as it was at time of death. It is a drug that is cleared fairly quickly from the body. Many who take it report waking up at 4:00am or 5:00am because it has worn off. Why would she have had a "therapeutic level" late in the morning? She had spoken to her daughter that morning to report feeling pretty good. Did not sound like she was planning to take Ambien during the daytime that day.


This guy was clever. But not clever enough. Just based on the few jury questions this far, I am heartened that someone seems to know what to ask. I am hoping to see more and more jury questions!

This may not be a sizzling trial. I just want to see the Prosecutor bring every single little piece of circumstantial evidence in that he can.

Great point!
Ambien should not have been at a therapeutic level at 11:00am!

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[AlwaysShocked]

http://www.abc4.com/media/lib/5/c/4...6cb080/MacNeill_Search_Warrant_03_16_2011.pdf


Here is a link to an affidavit for a search warrant that is full of information. Also has the names of yahoo and Hotmail accounts MacNeill and Gyspsy were using.
Bathsheba and Lucid Sphinx. Yeah. Right.

 

[minor4th]

I'm just watching some testimony from this morning that I missed earlier. Kristi is on the stand.

Let me say first of all that I think Martin is guilty based on the information I've seen and the news programs I've watched. But I think the prosecution is doing a lousy job with the witnesses so far. They are bringing out the information in such a confused and haphazard way -- and there are some obvious gaps that the prosecution is not even attempting to fill in.

For example, I think the prosecution should ask every witness exactly what Michele was wearing at what point. In questioning Kristi, she said Michele was wearing a long sleeved dark shirt when she first saw her, but then she also testified that when she was giving Michele chest compressions, Michele had no clothes on at all -- but there's no follow up questions or explanation about when her long sleeved shirt was removed and where the clothes went.

Also, it seems like the prosecution may have been exaggerating some things in their opening statements and charging documents. They said Martin deliberately gave the wrong address to 911, but it turns out he did actually give the right address, but he said it so fast and with such distress that the 911 dispatcher couldnt hear it.

The prosecution also said that Martin lied about giving Michele CPR, but according to these witnesses, it does seem like he was doing CPR or at least the witnesses thought that's what he was doing when they observed him over her in the bathtub and when she was removed from the tub.

I also recall that the prosecution was trying to cast suspicion on the fact that Martin wouldn't allow Kristi to help remove Michele from the tub and insisted that a male help him. But from Kristi's testimony, it seems like that wasn't an issue at all because right at the time Martin said he needed help from a male, Doug was there and helped move her. Kristi did also testify that when she saw Michele in the tub, she didn't think Martin would be able to get her out of the tub.

So if there is some issue about Martin removing clothing on the sly, then the prosecution needs to drive that point home. And they shouldnt exaggerate things or spin them to make their case look better when they are going to call witnesses who contradict their theories and allegations.

 

[minor4th]

I guess!
Very suspicious to me for plastic surgery. Had it been a hip replacement ... ok.
It just sounds like he planned for her to die and didn't want her bowels to empty in his bed where he planned to sleep with Gypsy.
moo
Add in the fact that she had no clothes below the waist and...
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I read somewhere that she had a hospital bed in her room while she was recovering from surgery.

 

[Sulamith]

BBM I know of this article. I read it a couple of years ago for some research on my Euthanasia literature review for my research methods class in college. The article was published in 1988 with "anonymous" as the author. They never found out who the author was (was not released by the JAMA). Could it have been Macneill?? When was he a resident? Anyone know?
This was a very controversial paper in 1988- people didn't talk about euthanasia at that time and it was considered murder at that time.
Anyone could claim to be the author of this article. The only people who would really know would be the JAMA and the person who actually wrote it.
---------------------------------------------------------
-------anonymous account published in JAMA ("It's Over,
Debbie"), a physician claimed to have injected morphine
sulfate sedative into a patient who appeared to be in pain,
thereby causing her death.'----------------------------------
http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1757&context=facpub
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...apRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9hIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6870,5224855
-----------------------------------------------
This is the article:
It's Over, Debbie

The call came in the middle of the night. As a gynecology resident rotating through a large, private hospital, I had come to detest telephone calls, because invariably I would be up for several hours and would not feel good the next day. However, duty called, so I answered the phone. A nurse informed me that a patient was having difficulty getting rest, could I please see her. She was on 3 North. That was the gynecologic-oncology unit, not my usual duty station. As I trudged along, bumping sleepily against walls and corners and not believing I was up again, I tried to imagine what I might find at the end of my walk. Maybe an elderly woman with an anxiety reaction, or perhaps something particularly horrible.

I grabbed the chart from the nurses station on my way to the patient's room, and the nurse gave me some hurried details: a 20-year-old girl named Debbie was dying of ovarian cancer. She was having unrelenting vomiting apparently as the result of an alcohol drip administered for sedation. Hmmm, I thought. Very sad. As I approached the room I could hear loud, labored breathing. I entered and saw an emaciated, dark-haired woman who appeared much older than 20. She was receiving nasal oxygen, had an IV, and was sitting in bed suffering from what was obviously severe air hunger. The chart noted her weight at 80 pounds. A second woman, also dark-haired but of middle age, stood at her right, holding her hand. Both looked up as I entered. The room seemed filled with the patient's desperate effort to survive. Her eyes were hollow, and she had suprasternal and intercostal retractions with her rapid inspirations. She had not eaten or slept in two days. She had not responded to chemotherapy and was being given supportive care only. It was a gallows scene, a cruel mockery of her youth and unfulfilled potential. Her only words to me were, "Let's get this over with."

I retreated with my thoughts to the nurses station. The patient was tired and needed rest. I could not give her health, but I could give her rest. I asked the nurse to draw 20 mg of morphine sulfate into a syringe. Enough, I thought, to do the job. I took the syringe into the room and told the two women I was going to give Debbie something that would let her rest and to say good-bye. Debbie looked at the syringe, then laid her head on the pillow with her eyes open, watching what was left of the world. I injected the morphine intravenously and watched to see if my calculations on its effects would be correct. Within seconds her breathing slowed to a normal rate, her eyes closed, and her features softened as she seemed restful at last. The older woman stroked the hair of the now-sleeping patient. I waited for the inevitable next effect of depressing the respiratory drive. With clocklike certainty, within four minutes the breathing rate slowed even more, then became irregular, then ceased. The dark-haired woman stood erect and seemed relieved.

It's over, Debbie.
--Name withheld by request
From A Piece of My Mind, a feature in the Jan. 8, 1988, issue of JAMA (Vol 259, No. 2). Edited by Roxanne K. Young, Associate Editor.

http://web.missouri.edu/~bondesonw/Debbie.HTM
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Very interesting. Thanks for that info. :seeya:

After I posted this: Originally Posted by Sulamith View Post
Just found this. Crazy. Wonder if the lady is telling the truth.


"MacNeill also had an affair with another woman for several months about two years before his wife's death, according to prosecutors. She told her psychiatrist she was having an affair with a "serial killer," an affidavit states. She said MacNeill told her he'd tried to kill his mother when he was young, but his sister called 911 and medical personnel revived her. He also said he'd killed his brother in a bathtub, told the woman he wanted to kill a daughter and offered to kill the woman's husband "to relieve her of an abusive relationship," an arrest warrant states.

MacNeill told the woman he had written an article in the Journal of American Medical Association titled, "It's Over, Debbie." The article was written by a doctor promoting "mercy killing," who euthanized a patient with an overdose of a sedative pain killer but was never held accountable, according to court documents.

"The defendant said he, too, had killed and discussed ways in which he could take another's life without being caught," prosecutors wrote in the charging documents filed Friday."

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=21854376
________________________________________________________________
I Googled JAMA and found "It's Over, Debbie" Gave me chills. It is a real article. Affair lady did not dream that up! What are the odds that some woman that was having an affair with MacNeill would know about an article in JAMA? Would not surprise me if he was the author. I do not have any idea when he was a resident but this article states he obtained his medical license in 1987 and I think a person has to have a medical license in order to be a resident.. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...s-death-accidental-or-was-it-murder.html?pg=2

"The young family lived in Mexico in 1980 while Martin attended a semester of medical school, then moved to California, New York and later to Utah, where Martin obtained his medical license in 1987. By this time, the couple had added three other children to their family."

Sorry, for the messed up quotes.

 

[Sulamith]

I read somewhere that she had a hospital bed in her room while she was recovering from surgery.

Police Officer Ray Ormond gave his testimony that the MacNeill's bedroom had a typical bed and a hospital style bed. He also stated that Mrs. MacNeill was wearing a general white garment, not a LDS garment. See video at the 0:42: mark. Thank you Croakerqueen123 for uploading the videos to YouTube!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_vkS9z54s

 

[Sulamith]

bbm

Good points all, snap -- LDS underwear is very personal, and is not to be shown to or seen by folks other than one's spouse or parents (if a minor). I am not LDS, but I asked my LDS friend tonight at a little get-together of friends, and that's what she said. Further, she said he had never worn her special underwear in the bath -- it would have been quite inappropriate, she said. Spec. underwear is quite a "no-fooling around" subject, and those items are to be treated with respect & reverence at all times.

Another of those "this just doesn't make sense" items in this thing...

And it is indeed difficult to try not to think of D. Peterson when thinking of this bathtub incident.... Maddening...

Police officer Ray Ormond testified that Mrs. MacNeill was not wearing LDS garments.

 

[Sulamith]

I'm just watching some testimony from this morning that I missed earlier. Kristi is on the stand.

Let me say first of all that I think Martin is guilty based on the information I've seen and the news programs I've watched. But I think the prosecution is doing a lousy job with the witnesses so far. They are bringing out the information in such a confused and haphazard way -- and there are some obvious gaps that the prosecution is not even attempting to fill in.

For example, I think the prosecution should ask every witness exactly what Michele was wearing at what point. In questioning Kristi, she said Michele was wearing a long sleeved dark shirt when she first saw her, but then she also testified that when she was giving Michele chest compressions, Michele had no clothes on at all -- but there's no follow up questions or explanation about when her long sleeved shirt was removed and where the clothes went.

Also, it seems like the prosecution may have been exaggerating some things in their opening statements and charging documents. They said Martin deliberately gave the wrong address to 911, but it turns out he did actually give the right address, but he said it so fast and with such distress that the 911 dispatcher couldnt hear it.

The prosecution also said that Martin lied about giving Michele CPR, but according to these witnesses, it does seem like he was doing CPR or at least the witnesses thought that's what he was doing when they observed him over her in the bathtub and when she was removed from the tub.

I also recall that the prosecution was trying to cast suspicion on the fact that Martin wouldn't allow Kristi to help remove Michele from the tub and insisted that a male help him. But from Kristi's testimony, it seems like that wasn't an issue at all because right at the time Martin said he needed help from a male, Doug was there and helped move her. Kristi did also testify that when she saw Michele in the tub, she didn't think Martin would be able to get her out of the tub.

So if there is some issue about Martin removing clothing on the sly, then the prosecution needs to drive that point home. And they shouldnt exaggerate things or spin them to make their case look better when they are going to call witnesses who contradict their theories and allegations.

I am really confused about the clothing but IMO, so what. It was an emergency and I would not expect any people helping to remember who was wearing what. I don't even know why the prosecution is going on and on about what Mrs. MacNeill was wearing!!

BBM I did not hear Kristi say that Mrs. MacNeill had no clothes on. I heard Kristi say that she had no clothes on from the waist down.

 

[minor4th]

I am really confused about the clothing but IMO, so what. It was an emergency and I would not expect any people helping to remember who was wearing what. I don't even know why the prosecution is going on and on about what Mrs. MacNeill was wearing!!

BBM I did not hear Kristi say that Mrs. MacNeill had no clothes on. I heard Kristi say that she had no clothes on from the waist down.

I don't really see what the big deal is if it's just a case of memories being confused because of the traumatic and chaotic nature of what was going on. But since the prosecution keeps bringing it up, it seems like they think it's somehow important -- and I think it was mentioned in their pc affidavit as evidence of some sort of cover up by Martin. So if they are going to keep bringing it up, they need to be more pointed in their questioning about it so that their point can be understood. So far they are not doing that and it's giving the defense an opportunity to make the state's witnesses seem unreliable.

 

[Only4Justice]

About Michelle's weight: I am 5'8" and weigh 175. I am curvaceous, but in no way would be considered overweight. FWIW.


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[YESorNO]

When DR. Macneill said that Michelle"s head was hanging in the bathtub with her body outside of the tub, wouldn't there be some kind of bruising on the stomach area if she suddenly passed out and fell half-in and half-out of the tub???
I can't wait for the ME to testify.
The more I read up on this case, the more I think there's something smelling bad about this case:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...death-accidental-or-was-it-murder.html?pg=all

The prosecutor needs to step-up here with more concrete evidence (somehow), although I can't imagine what that evidence will be

 

[mollyf]

Being older now I don't get certified any longer, but I believe the protocol nowadays is for 30 rapid compressions per cycle and don't even bother with the breaths.

Snipped for length and bolded by me.

Yes, see the Hands-OnlyTM CPR video from the American Heart Association.

 

[KALI]

Which I had not known before. This man is just unreal!

http://www.abc4.com/media/lib/5/c/4...6cb080/MacNeill_Search_Warrant_03_16_2011.pdf


Here is a link to an affidavit for a search warrant that is full of information. Also has the names of yahoo and Hotmail accounts MacNeill and Gyspsy were using.
Bathsheba and Lucid Sphinx. Yeah. Right.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

He was a D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathy) and not an M.D. but both are legitimately called "Doctors". He claims to also be a Psychiatrist which is not true. He apparently is an Attorney. I would hope he has been stripped of all of those prestigious titles and licenses, no?

Did he also have a drug addiction problem or was that just Gyps*???

 

[YESorNO]

He was a D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathy) and not an M.D. but both are legitimately called "Doctors". He claims to also be a Psychiatrist which is not true. He apparently is an Attorney. I would hope he has been stripped of all of those prestigious titles and licenses, no?

Did he also have a drug addiction problem or was that just Gyps*???

I had to look up D.O. and found this:
**********
"..many DO's are there (in D.O. school) because they didn't get in to MD schools...

http://www.medical-school-confidant.com/doctor-of-osteopathic-medicine.html
*****
One notable difference between D.O. and M.D. training is that D.O. training adds 300–500 hours studying philosophically-based techniques for hands-on manipulation of the human musculoskeletal system. These techniques, known as osteopathic manipulative medicine (OMM),[1] have been criticized as "pseudoscientific".[17][18]...

In 2003 Quackwatch published an article which stated that "although most DOs offer competent care, the percentage involved in dubious practices appears to be higher than that of [MDs]"; in particular, Quackwatch characterized some types of cranial therapy as "dubious".[32] In 2010, Steven Salzberg wrote that although he considered some D.Os. to be very good doctors, osteopathic manipulative therapy (OMT) was promoted as "the element that makes DOs 'special'" and that it amounted to no more than "'extra' training in pseudoscientific practices".[18]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathic_Medicine"]Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


Just FYI :seeya:

 

[Nore]

Great point!
Ambien should not have been at a therapeutic level at 11:00am!

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Hi gngr~snap, I am interested in the toxicology. I wonder if they checked for any poisons. I think of the Essa case here in Ohio a couple years ago. She appeared to have died from heart but on checking into poison they found cyanide. Essa is a Doctor also. At that time they said cyanide wouldnt show up unless they checked for it. I'm just wondering I really have no basis..:seeya:

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I had to look up D.O. and found this:
**********
"..many DO's are there (in D.O. school) because they didn't get in to MD schools...

http://www.medical-school-confidant.com/doctor-of-osteopathic-medicine.html
*****
One notable difference between D.O. and M.D. training is that D.O. training adds 300–500 hours studying philosophically-based techniques for hands-on manipulation of the human musculoskeletal system. These techniques, known as osteopathic manipulative medicine (OMM),[1] have been criticized as "pseudoscientific".[17][18]...

In 2003 Quackwatch published an article which stated that "although most DOs offer competent care, the percentage involved in dubious practices appears to be higher than that of [MDs]"; in particular, Quackwatch characterized some types of cranial therapy as "dubious".[32] In 2010, Steven Salzberg wrote that although he considered some D.Os. to be very good doctors, osteopathic manipulative therapy (OMT) was promoted as "the element that makes DOs 'special'" and that it amounted to no more than "'extra' training in pseudoscientific practices".[18]

Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Just FYI :seeya:

Yes, I know quite a bit about how tough it is to get into Med school to become an M.D.
It is far less competitive to gain entry into D.O. programs.

 

[Nore]

I had to look up D.O. and found this:
**********
"..many DO's are there (in D.O. school) because they didn't get in to MD schools...

http://www.medical-school-confidant.com/doctor-of-osteopathic-medicine.html
*****
One notable difference between D.O. and M.D. training is that D.O. training adds 300–500 hours studying philosophically-based techniques for hands-on manipulation of the human musculoskeletal system. These techniques, known as osteopathic manipulative medicine (OMM),[1] have been criticized as "pseudoscientific".[17][18]...

In 2003 Quackwatch published an article which stated that "although most DOs offer competent care, the percentage involved in dubious practices appears to be higher than that of [MDs]"; in particular, Quackwatch characterized some types of cranial therapy as "dubious".[32] In 2010, Steven Salzberg wrote that although he considered some D.Os. to be very good doctors, osteopathic manipulative therapy (OMT) was promoted as "the element that makes DOs 'special'" and that it amounted to no more than "'extra' training in pseudoscientific practices".[18]

Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Just FYI :seeya:

-----------

Hi, I can say I have been going to an OD, for 20 years. I had heard what you are saying before I went to him. Mine is one of a group. They are all good. To them one is not a number. I had bleeding U.C., septicemia, and a heart attack (mild) all at once. He knew exactly what to do and pulled me thru.. septicemia is a well known killer. I was in touch with many Dr.s with my son and yes, we must be very careful as there are many quacks~like the neurosurgeons at Cleveland Metro hospital who didnt recognize a stroke when they saw it. This isnt meant to be snarky, I dont do that it is simply words to keep in mind. I agree with your post. Good and bad in all my mom always said. Dang gum she was right again! :seeya:

PS. YorNo, didnt realize it was your post!! you know I am not snarky! Good to "see" you..

 

[scorekeeper]

I finally finished watching the afternoon session for yesterday.

The cop that testified.....again issues with the clothes.....who knows and does it really matter?

Also the amount of liquid that was expelled from MM (around 3 to 4 cups first time; around 3 cups second time with some froth)......does this possibly mean she drowned or was held under water?

Was he asked if MM had mucus on her face? I didn't hear that question/answer if asked.

Then now also back to the issue of her being wet....also he thought MM's hair was soaked/wet. And her body was wet.

I have to believe (hope) that the Pros will tie everything up for us with a big red bow.

Thanks to all that posted regarding the afternoon session!

 

[Nore]

bbm

The propping-up with pillows happens every day/night during care for facial, neck, & sometimes breast surgery in homes all over the country. If you don't have enuff pillows, go to Target & buy 4 or 5 more for $20 -- $30 -- or roll up bath towels or blankets -- ya don't need to rent a bed.

And yes, snap, it smacks of premeditation -- but the defense could say that since he was a doctor (or was he??), he knew how important bed rest could be, etc., etc. Yeah, like he suddenly cared about her well-being...

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Hi borndem, your question "he was a Dr. or was he?" also hits me. I read the one long report from I believe a Detective and the wording lead me to believe he falsified his medical diploma. He may have started but dropped out (IMO).This is going to be a tough one to prove. I feel the same may be true of the Attorney Degree..I think he made his big mistakes in clothing and placing the body in the tub..:seeya: