GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #1

[Nore]

I finally finished watching the afternoon session for yesterday.

The cop that testified.....again issues with the clothes.....who knows and does it really matter?

Also the amount of liquid that was expelled from MM (around 3 to 4 cups first time; around 3 cups second time with some froth)......does this possibly mean she drowned or was held under water?

Was he asked if MM had mucus on her face? I didn't hear that question/answer if asked.

Then now also back to the issue of her being wet....also he thought MM's hair was soaked/wet. And her body was wet.

I have to believe (hope) that the Pros will tie everything up for us with a big red bow.

Thanks to all that posted regarding the afternoon session!

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Hi scorekeeper, I am just starting into this trial so may not have everything straight yet. I remember when watching the trial one of the witnesses ( a man could well have been the neighbor) stated when he saw her she had mucus coming from her nose and mouth which appeared to be gray. After C.A. and reading on "the Bodyfarm" I was sort of surprised by this. It sounds like decomp , not saying it is but it sounds like it. This made me wonder if she could have been dead a while longer than he had told police. Think he is the one who also said only the long back of her hair was wet. Hmmmm..:seeya:

 

[Tricia]

TONIGHT (SUNDAY) ON TRICIA'S TRUE CRIME RADIO REPORTER JENNIFER DOBNER JOINS TO DISCUSS THE MACNEILL TRIAL​

JENNIFER IS WRITING ABOUT THE TRIAL FOR THE DESERET NEWS AND KSL.COM . SHE IS AT THE TRIAL AND WILL TELL US ABOUT HER OBSERVATIONS ON ONE OF THE MOST BIZARRE CASES EVER TO HAPPEN IN UTAH.

HERE ARE LINKS TO JENNIFER'S STORIES. SHE IS A TERRIFIC REPORTER.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-2-views-as-Martin-MacNeill-trial-begins.html

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...anel-jury-in-MacNeill-trial-today.html?pg=all

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=27254848&nid=148

http://www.myksl.com/index/story/sid/27292480

THAT'S TONIGHT (SUNDAY OCT 20TH) 8 PM EASTERN.

CLICK HERE TO LISTEN LIVE TO TRICIA'S TRUE CRIME RADIO

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

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Hi, I can say I have been going to an OD, for 20 years. I had heard what you are saying before I went to him. Mine is one of a group. They are all good. To them one is not a number. I had bleeding U.C., septicemia, and a heart attack (mild) all at once. He knew exactly what to do and pulled me thru.. septicemia is a well known killer. I was in touch with many Dr.s with my son and yes, we must be very careful as there are many quacks~like the neurosurgeons at Cleveland Metro hospital who didnt recognize a stroke when they saw it. This isnt meant to be snarky, I dont do that it is simply words to keep in mind. I agree with your post. Good and bad in all my mom always said. Dang gum she was right again! :seeya:

PS. YorNo, didnt realize it was your post!! you know I am not snarky! Good to "see" you..

Of course we all know that there's good and bad in every profession and no one here would suggest to paint anyone with one broad stroke. The point is that no one attempting to become a doctor is going to turn down an opportunity to go to Harvard's Medical School to become an M.D. in favor of attending a D.O. school in Mexico or Argentina. Typically, if you have attended a D.O. program it was because you did not get accepted into Med School (and still hate the thought of becoming a dentist).

Glad you found a doctor you like, Nore.

 

[renatae]

They're making such a big deal about the address on the 911 call being clear when played in slow motion. Are 911 operators supposed to take the time to re-play all call in slow motion before dispatching emergency personnel to the address they're given? Or are they supposed to forward the recording of the call on to someone else who can listen to it in slow motion?

Or are 911 operators supposed to have magical powers to be able to automatically hear in slow motion? Only when needed (do they miraculously know this some how?) or should this be done on every 911 call they answer?

I think they were preemptively countering the prosecution's contention that he gave the wrong address on purpose.

___________________
Freelance curmudgeon services at no charge. :-D

 

[MagicRose99]

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Hi, I can say I have been going to an OD, for 20 years. I had heard what you are saying before I went to him. Mine is one of a group. They are all good. To them one is not a number. I had bleeding U.C., septicemia, and a heart attack (mild) all at once. He knew exactly what to do and pulled me thru.. septicemia is a well known killer. I was in touch with many Dr.s with my son and yes, we must be very careful as there are many quacks~like the neurosurgeons at Cleveland Metro hospital who didnt recognize a stroke when they saw it. This isnt meant to be snarky, I dont do that it is simply words to keep in mind. I agree with your post. Good and bad in all my mom always said. Dang gum she was right again! :seeya:

PS. YorNo, didnt realize it was your post!! you know I am not snarky! Good to "see" you..

I was delivered by an OD and that was over 50 years ago! My mom found him and liked him so she had him as her OB. And I was a complicated delivery (partial breach).

 

[renatae]

I've known several DO's in residence and they were as bright as the MD's in residence . The big difference is that they always seemed to have more compassion. I'm in a big city suburb, and my MD PCP referred me to one of the most well known cardiologists in the area, who turned out to be a DO. Everyone in medicine really respects him.

In the past, I know some of their theories of pathology were way out there, but I think that has largely changed in more recent years. Other than MacNeill, I can't think of any one of them I know that I wouldn't trust, although I can think of several MD's I can't say the same about.

Not trying to ding MD's, it's just that I always had a low opinion of DO's before I began working with them at our teaching hospital.

___________________
Freelance curmudgeon services at no charge. :-D

 

[joypath]

Hi all! :seeya:
Just "caught" the fever of this trial and thought a perspective on terminology might be appropriate: Back in the day of my undergraduate training in Medical Technology, the standard "joke" in med. term. was "M.D." translated into "Major Deity" and the "D.O." meant "Deity Other" :floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

I learned quickly in Med. School that neither "JOKE" definition was appreciated but that SO MANY qualified!

Today's academic preparation IS similar and one can find "traditional" M.D. programs with a D.O. philosophy and vice-versa!

 

[scorekeeper]

I'm looking forward to the radio show tonight

thanks, Tricia!

 

[LinasK]

I had to look up D.O. and found this:
**********
"..many DO's are there (in D.O. school) because they didn't get in to MD schools...

http://www.medical-school-confidant.com/doctor-of-osteopathic-medicine.html
*****
One notable difference between D.O. and M.D. training is that D.O. training adds 300–500 hours studying philosophically-based techniques for hands-on manipulation of the human musculoskeletal system. These techniques, known as osteopathic manipulative medicine (OMM),[1] have been criticized as "pseudoscientific".[17][18]...

In 2003 Quackwatch published an article which stated that "although most DOs offer competent care, the percentage involved in dubious practices appears to be higher than that of [MDs]"; in particular, Quackwatch characterized some types of cranial therapy as "dubious".[32] In 2010, Steven Salzberg wrote that although he considered some D.Os. to be very good doctors, osteopathic manipulative therapy (OMT) was promoted as "the element that makes DOs 'special'" and that it amounted to no more than "'extra' training in pseudoscientific practices".[18]

Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Just FYI :seeya:

Ummm, I have to defend D.O's here! I have a nephew in DO school, and it's NOT because he couldn't get into MD school. He chose it. Also my doctor is a DO, and I asked him what is the difference. DO's get all the same training as MD's plus more. They get into other areas that MD's are reluctant such as alternative therapies like accupuncture, herbs, and other Eastern medicine.

 

[LinasK]

Of course we all know that there's good and bad in every profession and no one here would suggest to paint anyone with one broad stroke. The point is that no one attempting to become a doctor is going to turn down an opportunity to go to Harvard's Medical School to become an M.D. in favor of attending a D.O. school in Mexico or Argentina. Typically, if you have attended a D.O. program it was because you did not get accepted into Med School (and still hate the thought of becoming a dentist).

Glad you found a doctor you like, Nore.

Nope, both my DO and my nephew attended DO programs in the US, and not because they couldn't get into MD programs. My brother who is an MD, did start a medical school out of the country, until he got his acceptance in the states, then he transferred.

 

[renatae]

Hi all! :seeya:
Just "caught" the fever of this trial and thought a perspective on terminology might be appropriate: Back in the day of my undergraduate training in Medical Technology, the standard "joke" in med. term. was "M.D." translated into "Major Deity" and the "D.O." meant "Deity Other" :floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

I learned quickly in Med. School that neither "JOKE" definition was appreciated but that SO MANY qualified!

Today's academic preparation IS similar and one can find "traditional" M.D. programs with a D.O. philosophy and vice-versa!

BBM, ROFL!!! Never heard that one!
:rotfl:

 

[Cherry]

No court today; trial in session TUESDAY. FYI *grrrrr*

 

[Nore]

Ummm, I have to defend D.O's here! I have a nephew in DO school, and it's NOT because he couldn't get into MD school. He chose it. Also my doctor is a DO, and I asked him what is the difference. DO's get all the same training as MD's plus more. They get into other areas that MD's are reluctant such as alternative therapies like accupuncture, herbs, and other Eastern medicine.

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Hi Linask, the D.O.'s I know also have much morre compassion and do not treat a patient as a number. They take an interest in family as to thoughts of what may be bothering you. I wouldn't trade mine, he saved my life. :seeya:

 

[Nore]

I probably missed it but when M. was giving her CPR wasn't she in the bathtub? wouldn't that be diffcult leaning over the tub? He never (to my knowledge) said he climbed in the tub to straddle her which is what I would do. He just kept barking at the operator and said she was in the tub, he was giving her CPR.. a flub? maybe. :seeya:

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Nope, both my DO and my nephew attended DO programs in the US, and not because they couldn't get into MD programs. My brother who is an MD, did start a medical school out of the country, until he got his acceptance in the states, then he transferred.

From US News, Education section April 2012: Differences in Med School vs D.O. school & application:

2. If I'm applying, what are some of the differences that I'll see?

If you feel that you may be in the lower tier of applicants (typically below a 3.4 GPA and 30 MCAT, based on the Swarthmore College premedical website), it may be to your advantage to consider D.O. schools, which typically have less stringent admissions requirements.

Linas---this lower requirement to get into D.O. school is fairly common knowledge within the Medical community; perhaps not to laypeople....I don't know.
Point being: I'm not talking about who is a better doctor, who is a nicer person, who seems to treat people with more kindness. I *am* talking facts and the fact remains that it is easier to get into a D.O. program than an M.D. program.

 

[LinasK]

From US News, Education section April 2012: Differences in Med School vs D.O. school & application:

2. If I'm applying, what are some of the differences that I'll see?

If you feel that you may be in the lower tier of applicants (typically below a 3.4 GPA and 30 MCAT, based on the Swarthmore College premedical website), it may be to your advantage to consider D.O. schools, which typically have less stringent admissions requirements.

Linas---this lower requirement to get into D.O. school is fairly common knowledge within the Medical community; perhaps not to laypeople....I don't know.
Point being: I'm not talking about who is a better doctor, who is a nicer person, who seems to treat people with more kindness. I *am* talking facts and the fact remains that it is easier to get into a D.O. program than an M.D. program.

My nephew had the grades to get into medical school- he chose to be a DO because he liked what he saw.

 

[Cherry]

Oh I missed the radio show real world just won't allow me to attend anything yet. *waaaa*

But; on the other hand, I cant wait to see this trial. Or rather more of it. This morning; I was blissfully starting my day; got everything ready; set my schedule and then WHAM i remember judge saying see ya Tuesday....grrrrrrrr and grrrrrrrr even more so I made appts and went! hehe.

C'ya tomorrow peeps!

 

[Cherry]

I probably missed it but when M. was giving her CPR wasn't she in the bathtub? wouldn't that be diffcult leaning over the tub? He never (to my knowledge) said he climbed in the tub to straddle her which is what I would do. He just kept barking at the operator and said she was in the tub, he was giving her CPR.. a flub? maybe. :seeya:

Because she had some bloody froth on her mouth; he would have gotten that on him; he lied; and he did no such thing as cpr in any fashion that day, immho. And he was outright a on that 911 call. Period!

I hv more regard for my baby toe than he had for his wife during that 911 call.

 

[popsicle]

I probably missed it but when M. was giving her CPR wasn't she in the bathtub? wouldn't that be diffcult leaning over the tub? He never (to my knowledge) said he climbed in the tub to straddle her which is what I would do. He just kept barking at the operator and said she was in the tub, he was giving her CPR.. a flub? maybe. :seeya:

Better than that... the 911 op asked if she was still underwater and he said yes. So he was doing CPR on his wife while she was in the tub and under water.

 

[Bravo]

Good Day all :seeya: Cleared my calendar for the week so good to go here.