GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #3

[minor4th]

In hindsight. Little Ada. Sigh and bless her little heart. I do believe her Testimony. She describes her Mom in dark clothing. Yet says the water was brown. Given I think she saw her Mom with the upper clothing. In her mind she assumed she had bottoms on. If the water was colored she likely did not see a dark pant but merely thought she did. Based on what a child was trying to process given a horrific moment for her.

I think that is a possibility. It's bizarre that they were never located by anyone, but that could be because there was no real investigation for more than a year.

 

[Bravo]

I think if you want to flush stomach contents you stick a tube down the person's throat and empty it that way.

I've heard of CPR breaking ribs so maybe it is so forceful the person reguritates stomach contents but I haven't heard that one.

I'm going on my knowledge. If emesis occurs it's usually because air is going into the stomach and not the lungs. Then you need to reposition the head tilt chin lift. Yes you can break ribs as the compressions need to be forceful. My Daughter being on the Surgery floor follows the crash cart often with a code and has broken a few ribs.

 

[Bravo]

Minor4th. Have you ever come across a witness like Alexis? TIA.

 

[YESorNO]

I feel the same way. This bath tub part just doesn't make sense. I'm starting to wonder if maybe the bath tub didn't play any part in her death other than putting her in the tub and wetting her down to make it looked like she drowned.
I also think he took her pants off when Ada went for help and put them in the garage. Probably thought it would be more believably. I doubt very seriously if he was doing anything to help her while on the phone with 911. He was too busy backtracking before the neighbor arrived.

I agree about the pants part and MM not doing anything to help Michelle while on 911, but Ada said there was water in the tub and MM had to fill the tub somewhat before she found her mother.

 

[Bravo]

I agree about the pants part and MM not doing anything to help Michelle while on 911, but Ada said there was water in the tub and MM had to fill the tub somewhat before she found her mother.

Yes and we have to account for the fact that water was expelled from her lungs. She had to have inhaled water. IMO.

 

[Nore]

In hindsight. Little Ada. Sigh and bless her little heart. I do believe her Testimony. She describes her Mom in dark clothing. Yet says the water was brown. Given I think she saw her Mom with the upper clothing. In her mind she assumed she had bottoms on. If the water was colored she likely did not see a dark pant but merely thought she did. Based on what a child was trying to process given a horrific moment for her.

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Hi Bravo, hope I can say this right!:banghead: I tend to believe Adas description of mom. Believe me kids seeing something they really shouldn't it sticks in their mind. I can remember my sperm donor punching my mom in the nose, I was 7yrs. old. They divorced. I wonder if Michele had a bowel movement when she was dying in the tub. We dont know how long she was in there but everyone said she was cold to touch, lividity, etc..That would explain Ada seeing redish brown water, he removed pants to get rid of stool so no sample lying around. He probably took the pants someplace later and burned them. I've thought this from the beginning but not good at posts. I think he killed her early in the morning after Alexis called. That was around 8ish. Lets all light a candle for the verdict..Guilty~:HHJP:

P.S. my stepddad was my good Daddy xox....

 

[minor4th]

Minor4th. Have you ever come across a witness like Alexis? TIA.

In what way?

 

[minor4th]

Yes and we have to account for the fact that water was expelled from her lungs. She had to have inhaled water. IMO.

I just listened to Dr Grey talking about this. He said he did not know and could not determine whether the water was expelled from her lungs or her stomach, either was possible.

 

[Bravo]

In what way?

So calm, cool, collected and believable. For me Alexis was stellar.

 

[minor4th]

So calm, cool, collected and believable. For me Alexis was stellar.

Yes, I've come across many truthful witnesses who did not get baited by the opposing counsel on cross examination. I like to think that I always prepare my witnesses this way, and most of the time they are very good witnesses and truthful.

 

[Bravo]

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Hi Bravo, hope I can say this right!:banghead: I tend to believe Adas description of mom. Believe me kids seeing something they really shouldn't it sticks in their mind. I can remember my sperm donor punching my mom in the nose, I was 7yrs. old. They divorced. I wonder if Michele had a bowel movement when she was dying in the tub. We dont know how long she was in there but everyone said she was cold to touch, lividity, etc..That would explain Ada seeing redish brown water, he removed pants to get rid of stool so no sample lying around. He probably took the pants someplace later and burned them. I've thought this from the beginning but not good at posts. I think he killed her early in the morning after Alexis called. That was around 8ish. Lets all light a candle for the verdict..Guilty~:HHJP:

P.S. my stepddad was my good Daddy xox....

Glad your Stepdad was a good role model. So sorry your Daddy wasn't. Yes I pray for Guilty too. I hope you post more sweets.

 

[Bravo]

Yes, I've come across many truthful witnesses who did not get baited by the opposing counsel on cross examination. I like to think that I always prepare my witnesses this way, and most of the time they are very good witnesses and truthful.

I get what you are saying but her demeanor was beyond anyone I have witnessed. She is a Lawyers dream I imagine. Personally I have only been part of Discovery. That was horrid enough. Thankfully I understood the game. And it was just Discovery. Yet very very stressful.

 

[minor4th]

I get what you are saying but her demeanor was beyond anyone I have witnessed. She is a Lawyers dream I imagine. Personally I have only been part of Discovery. That was horrid enough. Thankfully I understood the game. And it was just Discovery. Yet very very stressful.

It is extremely stressful, and I would say most witnesses are nervous, and it's very easy to get defensive and combative when being attacked on cross examination. Alexis' testimony did not surprise me at all - she is a very intelligent and composed young woman. I am sure the prosecution spent a lot of time preparing her and specifically counseled her to stay calm and do not react defensively or argumentatively, and so forth.

 

[Bravo]

I just listened to Dr Grey talking about this. He said he did not know and could not determine whether the water was expelled from her lungs or her stomach, either was possible.

Call me confused LOL but in all my CPR and First Aid Training that I have to do every few years and not challenging a Dr. but if water is expelled from the stomach there would be emesis. What am I missing?

 

[GaveltoGavel]

MM story was she was leaning over the tub when he found her. Everyone else found her inside the tub. I think this is when he screwed up....the truth slipped out. I can't think of any other reason why he would say he found her leaning over the tub. Even by chance he found her leaning over why would he flip her into the tub. Would have been easy to just pull her to the floor. I don't know, something is too fishy here.

 

[minor4th]

Call me confused LOL but in all my CPR and First Aid Training that I have to do every few years and not challenging a Dr. but if water is expelled from the stomach there would be emesis. What am I missing?

No clue, I don't know what all this medical stuff means - just repeating what I heard him say.

 

[Bravo]

It is extremely stressful, and I would say most witnesses are nervous, and it's very easy to get defensive and combative when being attacked on cross examination. Alexis' testimony did not surprise me at all - she is a very intelligent and composed young woman. I am sure the prosecution spent a lot of time preparing her and specifically counseled her to stay calm and do not react defensively or argumentatively, and so forth.

She really did her Mom proud. I guess I didn't get defensive as I got where they were going in Discovery. It was a challenge for me. I had nothing to hide and was honest. It surprised me how they came at me. Yet I was calm. I didn't even get seated and the Lawyer said "So you lived with your husband before you were married" I replied yes closing was just before our wedding on the house. At that point I knew where it was going. South LOL.

 

[minor4th]

MM story was she was leaning over the tub when he found her. Everyone else found her inside the tub. I think this is when he screwed up....the truth slipped out. I can't think of any other reason why he would say he found her leaning over the tub. Even by chance he found her leaning over why would he flip her into the tub. Would have been easy to just pull her to the floor. I don't know, something is too fishy here.

She clearly wasn't leaning over the tub. Ada was the first one to see her, and she was very clear that Michele was all the way in the tub, on her back, with her head towards the faucet. I don't know why Martin would try to convince anyone that she was originally draped over the tub when all of the witnesses had seen her all the way in and on her back.

 

[Bravo]

Those are the clinchers for me. Martin lied about the positioning of Michele with the tub. Why I don't know. Other than the tub was a last minute plan since the drugs didn't kill Michele. Could he have come up with something better? absolutely. Yet that is the beauty of a Sociopath. They don't view the world as we do and believe we will believe them. I don't believe Michele took all those drugs. Martin had the means and motive.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Sociopaths, Psycopaths, and Narcissists actually *believe* that everybody else is inferior, stupid, naive, and gullible.

And at least half the time they are right in a sense, 'cause civility, trust, and kindness are the qualities that most of us possess and aspire to.

Sadly, many become their victims in an array of ways.

Anyone and everyone that MM came in contact with has been emotionally destroyed (in essence).....or else they are dead.