GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #3

[ATasteOfHoney]

Curious if you've been following the case very much? The original ME ruled her death due to natural causes/myocarditis that can result in sudden death. A subsequent ME ruled the death due to myocarditis plus drug toxicity.

No offense, Minor.....but I stand by my opinion.

 

[Bravo]

Sociopaths, Psycopaths, and Narcissists actually *believe* that everybody else is inferior, stupid, naive, and gullible.

And at least half the time they are right in a sense, 'cause civility, trust, and kindness are the qualities that most of us possess and aspire to.

Sadly, many become their victims in an array of ways.

Anyone and everyone that MM came in contact with has been emotionally destroyed (in essence).....or else they are dead.

Absolutely. Yet their downfall. Eventually. And their Victims. Sadly.

 

[Bravo]

Off I go. See ya all tomorrow. Sleep well everyone :seeya:

 

[Italy]

She clearly wasn't leaning over the tub. Ada was the first one to see her, and she was very clear that Michele was all the way in the tub, on her back, with her head towards the faucet. I don't know why Martin would try to convince anyone that she was originally draped over the tub when all of the witnesses had seen her all the way in and on her back.

His account is laughable.

In order to believe Martin MacNeill's account is correct, it must be accepted that:
.. Ada was not truthful in her statement that her mother's body was fully within the tub and that it was slumped over the edge of the tub as MM claims.
.. It then must be accepted that despite his claim of crippling physical limitations he was able to lift Michelle's body into the tub from this draped position over the edge of the tub.
.. Then, immediately after moving her body to within the tub, he attempted but was physically unable to withdraw her body from the very tub into which he had just placed her.
…Or, failing to believe all of that, it must be accepted that Caspar and his friendly ghosts arrived and did all of the above.

In my view, the best argument in support of MM's claim is the one that includes Caspar.

 

[passionflower]

Sociopaths, Psycopaths, and Narcissists actually *believe* that everybody else is inferior, stupid, naive, and gullible.

And at least half the time they are right in a sense, 'cause civility, trust, and kindness are the qualities that most of us possess and aspire to.

Sadly, many become their victims in an array of ways.

Anyone and everyone that MM came in contact with has been emotionally destroyed (in essence).....or else they are dead.

Great post

 

[Isabelle]

And to think that the IV fluids would have caused even more hemodilution... That part of the testimony was fascinating. I was answering some of the questions posed to the ME and I had earbuds in. My daughters were hearing me talk, cuss, exclaim etc. they asked me who I was talking to. My self of course :floorlaugh:

I think the reason MM wanted the ER doc to continue resuscitation efforts was so that more IV fluids would be pumped into her. Certainly they were wide open and running at full speed.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I'm going on my knowledge. If emesis occurs it's usually because air is going into the stomach and not the lungs. Then you need to reposition the head tilt chin lift. Yes you can break ribs as the compressions need to be forceful. My Daughter being on the Surgery floor follows the crash cart often with a code and has broken a few ribs.

**My apologies in advance for this more than slightly O/T question/post**

And Bravo you may have no clue what I am even talking about/asking, but this discussion brought up a very clear memory that I have regarding patients "coding" in a hospital and the use of the crash cart, etc..

My daddy died suddenly/unexpectedly @the age of 36 from a pulmonary embolism that he got 48hours after a very routine, and relatively minor surgery.. This happened as he was very literally being discharged while preparing to get dressed in his street clothes that my mom and I had brought for him when we arrived to pick him up, to take him home that morning from the hospital..

Anyhoo all that was to say that one of my most vivid memories was of the long and extended time that they spent attempting to resuscitate him in their at that time having no idea that it was in fact a PE that he had suffered and that he was gone/passed literally before he ever even hit the hospital room floor.. The term that they used for the "team" of health professionals that immediately arrived in his room and performed any/all of the measures taken to attempt to resuscitate him..the term they used I have always remembered being called, "The Harvey Team"..but now I wonder is my memory faulty/unclear due to my googling this term led to nothing remotely similar to this term being used to identify resuscitation efforts on a patient who has "coded" in a hospital...??..?

Am I crazy in my always having remembered their specifically referring to this "Harvey Team"..and obviously I misunderstood from the start(which I suppose is altogether possible with my being 13yo at the time and it now being over 23 years ago that this happened)..

Again my apologies for the O/T question along with my as is usual, overly wording my posts:blushing:..Bravo, you may not have the foggiest idea of what I'm talking about/asking..lol..but I'm hoping that maybe someone here with medical training/experience may know the answer to my unusual and off topic question:crazy:

**Please forgive the limitations that come w/my posting via mobile ATM**

 

[Isabelle]

I feel the same way. This bath tub part just doesn't make sense. I'm starting to wonder if maybe the bath tub didn't play any part in her death other than putting her in the tub and wetting her down to make it looked like she drowned.
I also think he took her pants off when Ada went for help and put them in the garage. Probably thought it would be more believably. I doubt very seriously if he was doing anything to help her while on the phone with 911. He was too busy backtracking before the neighbor arrived.

You could be right about the tub not playing any part in Michele's death. She may have died in bed and he set the tub scene. I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[minor4th]

No offense, Minor.....but I stand by my opinion.

I don't wish to deprive you of your opinion I do not think it was natural causes but at least two ME's have thought so, and I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibilities.

 

[Isabelle]

Call me confused LOL but in all my CPR and First Aid Training that I have to do every few years and not challenging a Dr. but if water is expelled from the stomach there would be emesis. What am I missing?

Yes, water expelled from the stomach would be called emesis and may contain particles of food, mucus and may be tinted slightly or bright yellow. I would imagine if the contents of the stomach were expelled after death, there may be bile, in which case the fluid would be tinted green. Seems I read that EMT's said the fluid that came out was frothy and blood tinged. If this is true, sounds like what is found in lungs with drug overdose (learned that from the Doc that did the autopsy on Caylee Anthony, can't remember her name, but watched her shows).

 

[Ann-Tx]

This is an older article (10/11/12) and has interesting info which is a good "refresher."
~~~~~

Martin MacNeill's actions showed 'evidence of a guilty mind,' judge says

Pleasant Grove doctor ordered to stand trial for murder in wife's 2007 death

The Deseret News
Salt Lake City, UT

Published: Thursday, Oct. 11 2012

PROVO — After five full days of testimony and a morning of arguments, a judge declared that much of what Martin MacNeill did surrounding his wife's death showed "evidence of a guilty mind."

Although the case is largely circumstantial, the judge said a variety of MacNeill's unusual actions created valid suspicion, such as the way MacNeill offered an emergency room doctor $10,000 to keep working on his clearly dead wife, and how the description of his wife's body in the bathtub contradicted nearly everyone else who saw her.

"The court believes there is probable case to believe that Michele MacNeill died by drowning and was subjected to drowning by the defendant," 4th District Judge Samuel McVey said Thursday. "There is certainly motive in this case — a long-term relationship with a paramour. ... This would not be the first case in which someone killed a spouse to replace that spouse."

Snipped:


Michele MacNeill died of drug toxicity and heart disease, a retired Florida medical examiner testified that she died from drowning. But Utah County deputy district attorney Chad Grunander said the exact cause of death isn't important.

"The state needs to show that Martin MacNeill committed an act that caused the death of another. It doesn't articulate that there needs to be a specific, overt act proven under a specific theory," he said in his closing statements.


Snipped:

Dr. Joshua Perper, who recently retired as chief medical examiner in Broward County, Fla., testified that he believed drowning was the cause of MacNeill's death.

Perper disputed the findings of both Utah State Medical Examiner Dr. Todd Grey — a fellow prosecution witness — and one of Grey's former employees, Dr. Maureen Frikke.

Snipped:

The judge said he felt Perper's was the most thorough and reliable evaluation, but noted that "medical examiners are not the arbiters of this case and are not the final say as to the cause of death." He said Frikke's illness left him "disinclined to give a whole lot of weight" to her conclusions.

Read more:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...d-trial-for-murder-in-wifes-death.html?pg=all

 

[Isabelle]

Those are the clinchers for me. Martin lied about the positioning of Michele with the tub. Why I don't know. Other than the tub was a last minute plan since the drugs didn't kill Michele. Could he have come up with something better? absolutely. Yet that is the beauty of a Sociopath. They don't view the world as we do and believe we will believe them. I don't believe Michele took all those drugs. Martin had the means and motive.

Oh, wait, wasn't there a blood stain on the carpet in the bedroom. I bet Michele collapsed onto the carpet and died or was very near death when MM moved her to the tub to make it look like she fell.

 

[Italy]

You could be right about the tub not playing any part in Michele's death. She may have died in bed and he set the tub scene. I wouldn't be surprised.

Why do you think he would state that he found her draped over the tub when Ada and the neighbors who saw her before the arrival of the EMTs reported her being completely within the tub?

Perhaps to mask a facial injury? If she 'fell' into the tub, it is reasonable that she would have injured her face.

I am mystified as to why he would make that claim -- to the point of physically demonstrating to his two daughters. He is doing so for a reason - but what reason I don't know.

 

[minor4th]

Why do you think he would state that he found her draped over the tub when Ada and the neighbors who saw her before the arrival of the EMTs reported her being completely within the tub?

Perhaps to mask a facial injury? If she 'fell' into the tub, it is reasonable that she would have injured her face.

I am mystified as to why he would make that claim -- to the point of physically demonstrating to his two daughters. He is doing so for a reason - but what reason I don't know.

Maybe he just overestimated his power to persuade people to believe what he tells them

 

[Isabelle]

Why do you think he would state that he found her draped over the tub when Ada and the neighbors who saw her before the arrival of the EMTs reported her being completely within the tub?

Perhaps to mask a facial injury? If she 'fell' into the tub, it is reasonable that she would have injured her face.

I am mystified as to why he would make that claim -- to the point of physically demonstrating to his two daughters. He is doing so for a reason - but what reason I don't know.

I think he might have moved her body to make it look more like an accidental death/arrhythmia. Makes no sense since if she died on the carpet it would be the same thing, but he knew that her death was not natural, so he had to make it look convincing.

 

[CakeLeigh]

Coming out of lurking for a sec...

I just noticed that it appears that a couple of the inmates' spouses are on the witness list. Could these spouses have been helping MM and Gypsy pass notes while they were in prison?

 

[minor4th]

I'm listening to Spencer cross examine Dr Grey and it is annoying me so much. Dr Grey is not letting him spin things or put words in his mouth. But Spencer is not scoring any points IMO. The only certainty is that Michele died, her heart was enlarged, and she had 4 narcotics in her blood in amounts insufficient to cause death. No one is arguing that she died of a drug overdose, so I don't know why Spencer is trying to get Dr Grey to explain that the levels of medications could be lower than the findings -- they were there, which means that she took the medications at most a few hours before she died.

 

[minor4th]

In fact, the information that Spencer is eliciting in Dr Grey's cross examination bolsters the state's case, if anything.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I don't wish to deprive you of your opinion I do not think it was natural causes but at least two ME's have thought so, and I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibilities.

And so we shall see in good time......

 

[minor4th]

And so we shall see in good time......

I think he drowned her, and I hope the jury sees that too. I'm looking forward to Dr Perper's testimony because I think it will make this more clear.