GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #4

[Bravo]

How is the Defense going to get around this. They may have an expert who presents a good argument. Speaking to all that water. LOL yes I have been stuck on the water issue for some time.

 

[CUCKOOHEAD]

The healing facial wounds may have contributed to the blood in the water, but I think the majority of it came from the lungs. IMO Michelle was so sedated, she could not fight back. She could not protect her airway, meaning, she breathed in/ingested water. Extreme sedation prevents you from doing that.

For example, if you try holding your breath under water, and you hold it too long, you surface gasping for air. I think Michelle, unconscious in a tub with her gag reflex impaired, was purposefully drowned. I have not heard of any defensive wounds, so this has led me to this conclusion. JMO

Isn't it the body's fight for survival that would cause someone to thrash around in the struggle to get air into the lungs? Yes the level of sedation would factor in how much of a struggle there is and how much water was inhaled. Isn't breathing a brain stem function and it goes on even if comatose.

I remember seeing 'One flew over the Cuckoo Nest' and while Mac was lobotomized and no longer functioning like he did when the Chief started to smother him there was still a pretty good struggle for air.

JMO

 

[Bravo]

Was Michele's hair all wet? I thought I read or someone testified only the ends were wet... I might be wrong...

I have heard and read differing observations from witnesses. Damp, wet etc.

 

[Bayou Mistress]

Was Michele's hair all wet? I thought I read or someone testified only the ends were wet... I might be wrong...

You're right. There were two different accounts, one was that her hair was partly wet and another that her whole head was wet.

 

[CUCKOOHEAD]

How is the Defense going to get around this. They may have an expert who presents a good argument. Speaking to all that water. LOL yes I have been stuck on the water issue for some time.

Me too! And the faucet miraculously turning itself off before Ada saw her mom, and all those drugs that Michele hated to take in her system.

 

[Bravo]

I don't think Michele was in the tub that long. In the beginning it was testified to there was no wrinkling of the skin. Then again I don't know if the skin would wrinkle once somebody is deceased.

 

[Softail]

Me too! And the faucet miraculously turning itself off before Ada saw her mom, and all those drugs that Michele hated to take in her system.

Not to mention, according to Alexis - She barely even needed them at this point.

 

[Zuri]

Do lungs bleed under these circumstances? TIA

Yes. Fresh water is hypotonic, meaning water enters the cells. When water enters the lungs, it enters the cells and causes the red blood cells to lyse or explode. Thus the exploded red blood cells become mixed with water, causing the appearance of bloody water within the lungs. Subsequently, the bloody water in the lungs is forced out, either passively or actively. IMO this also caused the tub water to appear bloody. I hope I explained this correctly. Dr. Zuri explained this to me a few days ago and I hope I remembered it right.

 

[Harmony 2]

You're right. There were two different accounts, one was that her hair was partly wet and another that her whole head was wet.

Didn't Ada and others testify that Michele's head was above water when found?

 

[Bravo]

Isn't it the body's fight for survival that would cause someone to thrash around in the struggle to get air into the lungs? Yes the level of sedation would factor in how much of a struggle there is and how much water was inhaled. Isn't breathing a brain stem function and it goes on even if comatose.

I remember seeing 'One flew over the Cuckoo Nest' and while Mac was lobotomized and no longer functioning like he did when the Chief started to smother him there was still a pretty good struggle for air.

JMO

Great movie. Given I worked in Institutions many moons ago lol Yes fight or flight. Guess Martins toe didn`t hamper drowning his wife.

 

[Apollo]

How is the Defense going to get around this. They may have an expert who presents a good argument. Speaking to all that water. LOL yes I have been stuck on the water issue for some time.

I'm not clear as to why they would want to get around the drowning issue. Hasn't it been Martin's claim from the beginning that she drown in the bathtub?

 

[Bravo]

Didn't Ada and others testify that Michele's head was above water when found?

She did

 

[Bayou Mistress]

Didn't Ada and others testify that Michele's head was above water when found?

I think so. And, the water was alleged to be cool (or not warm)...If I recall correctly. Which, if true, would move her time of death towards the hour before she was discovered?

 

[Bravo]

I'm not clear as to why they would want to get around the drowning issue. Hasn't it been Martin's claim from the beginning that she drown in the bathtub?

If Michele was so sedated she merely slipped under the water and drowned I don't believe she would have had that amount of water in her.

 

[seattlechiquita]

wtf, break AGAIN?

 

[minor4th]

I'm not clear as to why they would want to get around the drowning issue. Hasn't it been Martin's claim from the beginning that she drown in the bathtub?

I think it's his position that she died of heart disease/arrhythmia

 

[Isabelle]

It's too bad the level of drugs in her blood couldn't be determined due to dilution and not knowing the dosage and times the drugs were ingested.

I believe that is the exact reason MM offered the ER doc $$ to continue the resuscitation, because fluids would be flowing into her via IV access/es, which is usual in a code situation. MM knew exactly what had to be done.

 

[Zuri]

Isn't it the body's fight for survival that would cause someone to thrash around in the struggle to get air into the lungs? Yes the level of sedation would factor in how much of a struggle there is and how much water was inhaled. Isn't breathing a brain stem function and it goes on even if comatose.

I remember seeing 'One flew over the Cuckoo Nest' and while Mac was lobotomized and no longer functioning like he did when the Chief started to smother him there was still a pretty good struggle for air.

JMO

Level of consciousness or LOC is key to this. You are correct in that the normal body response is to breathe. If the gag reflex is compromised and pt is deeply unconscious, struggle may be less likely. We read about very intoxicated people drowning, or aspirating into their lungs and dying. Yes comatose people still breathe, but I am not sure if a comatose patient could adequately protect their airway in these circumstances. Very good question. I will ask Dr. Zuri.

In a lobotomy, the frontal lobe is removed. Patients are generally not comatose. The gag reflex remains intact, so they would be able to protect their airway.

 

[popsicle]

NOT liking how he is doing Dr Perper

 

[Isabelle]

So if the Jury accepts Perpers findings I guess the question becomes did she drown because of the drugs in her system or did she have some help. Based on the amount of water in Michele I would say she had some help :jail: IMO
A punctuation key is not working. Prolly chip crumbs. So please excuse.

And I hope in closing the prosecution will comment about MM calling Dr. Thompson for more pain meds the same day Michele saw the doctor and told him she was taking a minimal amount/weaning off. So transparent MM is.

ETA: Bet Dr. Thompson doesn't do any more professional favors of this sort.