UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #4

[sniperacer]

IMO, she wanted her OLD original Josh back, after moving her away from HER FAMILY, Josh became someone Susan did not know anymore.
Been there and done that........But he was NEVER going to change........
Susan thought she could change him.

This is easy to understand and agree with. Not one "ounce" of religious reasoning.

I am just questioning why Susan chose LDS recommend and church on Sundays, rather than "move back to my family" or "go to counseling". Did she think the LDS church could fix Josh?

 

[nervous_nellie]

This is easy to understand and agree with. Not one "ounce" of religious reasoning.

I am just questioning why Susan chose LDS recommend and church on Sundays, rather than "move back to my family" or "go to counseling". Did she think the LDS church could fix Josh?

hi sniper, i know it seems tempting to try and boil this down to her choosing religion over marriage/josh but learning all of the covenants is not possible by posting on ws, lol. any and all religious philosophies have many complexities that just dont translate well in a chat fourum... but i think the easiest way to look at it is to think about basic christian beliefs and then look at josh powells behavior and antics to see how they may be in direct conflict. LDS is a christian religion and there isnt anything secret and special that needs to be known in regards to susan having a big problem with him. without a doubt he claimed to embrace LDS philosophies and then did a 180 on her. had he not been abusive to her she may not have had such a problem with it. i dont know why she didnt just say " you treat me like sh*t and im outta here" that seems more to the point, but she just didnt choose to handle it that way.

 

[nervous_nellie]

From what has been posted, I've learned getting married in the Temple is something special. Certainly different than Las Vegas. :innocent:

What are those Temple covenants (other than the standard wedding vows)?

My question, after getting married in the Temple, must you remain LDS? So if one party no longer LDS's, does the church support a divorce? Or if both parties no longer LDS, does the church null and void your marriage?

i also wanted to add that i think since she viewed the church as the ultimate authority that it could encourage josh to "knock it off". kwim?

 

[darlin gal]

Not to knock Susan's family or LE but why is no one searching for Susan? I mean out there boots on the ground searching?

I was just over in the Sarah Foxwell thread. The little girl missing in Maryland.
No one knows where she could be and most know they are looking for a body but yet over 3000 turned out this morning (on Christmas) to help search and bring this little girl home.

Suspect also is being uncooperative. They don't know exactly where to search but at least they are out there doing something.

I just feel that with all the community of supporters Susan and her family has, all the fasting, praying and random acts of kindness in Susan's name isn't bringing them any closer to finding Susan and bringing her home.

jmo

 

[sniperacer]

Not to knock Susan's family or LE but why is no one searching for Susan? I mean out there boots on the ground searching?

I was just over in the Sarah Foxwell thread. The little girl missing in Maryland.
No one knows where she could be and most know they are looking for a body but yet over 3000 turned out this morning (on Christmas) to help search and bring this little girl home.

Suspect also is being uncooperative. They don't know exactly where to search but at least they are out there doing something.

I just feel that with all the community of supporters Susan and her family has, all the fasting, praying and random acts of kindness in Susan's name isn't bringing them any closer to finding Susan and bringing her home.

jmo

Hi Darlin.

I understand your frustration. But have you been to Utah?

 

[MomLady]

Merry Christmas

Did I see that the police took the van and searched it and then returned it?

Hmm, I wonder if it now has some type of tracking device on it, kinda like they did with Scotty boy?

There are too many similarities between all these "missing wife" cases? Remember Scott said that Laci was "missing". Not gee, she's not home, have you seen her?"

Off topic, but I am thinking about the Rocha family right now. This has to be a very hard time of the year to get thru without Laci.

MomLady

 

[darlin gal]

I have. I am well aware of the terrain and the conditions.

They could at least start out the house and search the immediate area to eliminate it. Statistically most bodies are found close to home. I just don't see him driving hundreds of miles with two small children and a body. jmo

Search area parks, woods. I know it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

I guess I am just frustrated. All those thousands of people they have at their fingertips to search and no searching is being done.

Sorry.

 

[nervous_nellie]

I have. I am well aware of the terrain and the conditions.

They could at least start out the house and search the immediate area to eliminate it. Statistically most bodies are found close to home. I just don't see him driving hundreds of miles with two small children and a body. jmo

Search area parks, woods. I know it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

I guess I am just frustrated. All those thousands of people they have at their fingertips to search and no searching is being done.

Sorry.

yes, i agree that they should at least look closer to home for her - SOMETHING. i wonder what they know that we dont? i think im just really frustrated that he has not been arrested yet. and i fear that they aren't going to find enough to get him. and after his obvious lies on national tv it is just really hard to stomach the thought of him happily eating christmas dinner.:furious: i hope it is his last.

 

[SusanB]

I have. I am well aware of the terrain and the conditions.

They could at least start out the house and search the immediate area to eliminate it. Statistically most bodies are found close to home. I just don't see him driving hundreds of miles with two small children and a body. jmo

Search area parks, woods. I know it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

I guess I am just frustrated. All those thousands of people they have at their fingertips to search and no searching is being done.

Sorry.

Hi everyone and Happy Holiday's to all! I have been missing from here a couple days due to last minute crazy busy stuff.
I agree with Darlin - I have been wondering for awhile while no foot searching is going on. Yes, I know, the area is vast, but have they done ANY searching? I mean, around the home, likely camp spots, nearby woods, etc.
I need to catch up with the last day's posts so I can at least make intelligent responses.
I just wanted to chime in for a second, I am also frustrated with a few aspects of this case. Why did LE not maintain surveillance on JP when he rented the car and took off for 24 hours to whereabouts unknown? IMO he went back to the dump site to check it out or move the body. The case would be in a different place if he had been tracked.
What is taking so long for this case to be taken care of? Where are the forensics? IMOO, there is definite possibilities that Josh will flee, or cause harm to his little boys, so waiting may not really be advantageous here.:waitasec:

 

[mom_of_five]

Just tossing in my extreme concern for the two little guys...the more pressure Josh feels, the more danger they are in (IMO).

 

[fran]

Just tossing in my extreme concern for the two little guys...the more pressure Josh feels, the more danger they are in (IMO).

I've been saying for days the grandparents need to see a judge and get an exparte hearing. I really believe this guy is on the edge! I think those children are in danger. I don't care if his parents are there or not. He's not good for those boys!

fran

 

[DomCasual]

From what has been posted, I've learned getting married in the Temple is something special. Certainly different than Las Vegas. :innocent:

What are those Temple covenants (other than the standard wedding vows)?

My question, after getting married in the Temple, must you remain LDS? So if one party no longer LDS's, does the church support a divorce? Or if both parties no longer LDS, does the church null and void your marriage?

Your temple marriage is considered to be for all eternity. A secular wedding uses the term "until death do you part." So, by continuing with him, in her mind, she was making the choice to give up her eternal family - including her relationship with her kids (that's complicated - she would still know them, but not necessarily as their mother).

A temple marriage is only as valid as your worthiness of it. So, falling away from the covenants you make in the temple is almost like not having gone at all - worse, actually.

That make sense?

 

[burbqueen]

Susan was not choosing religion over anything. She was duped, tricked by jp. Some of you have to understand that as a LDS member he religion is a huge part of her marriage if she is a devout Mormon. I feel that no Mormon should purposely marry outside the faith unless they aren't that active in the church.

Like many have said. The husband is head of the household on earth and in heaven during the after life. So yeah, jp was a member and church goer then became disinterested leaving Susan in the lurch spiritually. It makes sense that she would try to save her marriage.

Now I don't agree with tryin as much as she did but then again I'm not in her shoes. She probably really loved jp.

Being a Mormon actively is not like going to church on Sunday and that's it. No, religion is an active part of your social, marriage, friendships and spiritual well being. It's not passive. Like I have stated before. As a former Jehovah's witness, i have been apart of a "strict" Christian religon. Being a jw is not for the everyone. Religion dominates your life, which was a positive influence in my life.

 

[Fairy1]

From what has been posted, I've learned getting married in the Temple is something special. Certainly different than Las Vegas. :innocent:

What are those Temple covenants (other than the standard wedding vows)?

My question, after getting married in the Temple, must you remain LDS? So if one party no longer LDS's, does the church support a divorce? Or if both parties no longer LDS, does the church null and void your marriage?

Hey - we have a temple right here in Vegas!

I had a dream this morning that Susan had been found.

Merry Christmas to everyone!

 

[sniperacer]

Hey - we have a temple right here in Vegas!

Is Elvis the minister?

The only Temple close to me is off the freeway in San Diego. And I have to say this building is big, way "over the top" and really sticks out (like many temples). when they built it in 1993, they had an open house for all, before it was officially "Mormonized". I wish now I went to see it.

The San Diego Mormon Temple.

 

[skymom]

I think when folks posit that Susan was putting her religion ahead of her marriage (as evidenced by her ultimatum that Josh get back in good standing with their faith, and get his Temple Recommend reinstated), that she was going for a complete "win". By that I mean that in order to get his Temple Recommend, Josh had to straighten up and fly right -- be a good provider, get his debts covered, etc., at least that's what I see when I read the questions used to renew the Temple Recommend.

Given that she was a woman of faith, she also was thinking long term based on her faith, and based on her teachings, that meant she needed a husband in good stead to ensure her eternal future, not just the one on this earth.

I don't question her faith, I think that's a very personal thing, and something that should be respected (or I thought we still did that in this country! ).

To her, this was "Plan A" -- good for this world and beyond -- and would effectively correct his deadbeat ways. "Plan B" was going it alone, and I think she was about to implement Plan B. I pray for her and her family -- this is not a way I'd want anyone to remember Christmas.

Merry Christmas everyone. And if Christmas isn't your thing, Happy Holidays.

Skymom

 

[lemonmoussetart]

This reminds me of Caysey Anthony. There's no reason to drive out to the mountains, when Susan is very close to the home. I think (IMHO) the trip was to throw the scent off.

Has the area around Susan's home been searched thoroughly?

The rental car could be another way to throw the scent off -- thinking she's hundreds of miles away, when in reality she could be right under their nose.

ETA: they're not going to find anything in the van, cuz she was never in it.....

Interesting theory.....

Mel

Mel,

Have always been of the feeling (no real reason) that Susan is closer than LE has been led to think. Firstly due to riding little ones around, and when they may wake up when you didn't leave until 12:30am. Speculated that he drove to the place where he 'left' Susan, then hit it in opposite direction to where he and boys went camping. Then driving yet around, and around to get story together. THEN when friends started calling at a far earlier, and rapid rate, leaving voice mails when he didn't answer...thinking NOW wtf am i going to come up with??? but as he told someone he was in WLC it only took him 2 flipping hours to get home, knowing wife was missing. hello?
My stance is that LE had d@mn better well know every nook/crannie of this story for waiting soo long. I take comfort in the notion that they get it right before swiftness. But that is the only reason.

May the love of Christ on this holiest of days show the truth to those who seek it, and peace to those who are in need.

luv, julie

on another note:
Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, and Happy all holidays to my WS friends!

 

[JennaLee]

I wonder when Susan walked to church with her sons, what mood she was in.
And during the church meeting, and after.
We will never get anything out of JoVanna that is true, she sugar coats Josh.

WOW! I've barely been here at all this past week or so cause work's been so busy. It's finally dying down though. It's been hard to catch up but I'm almost there!

Regarding JoVonna, the transcripts of this interview offer some interesting info. Apparently it was Susan, not JoVonna who was calling attention to the "nice" things Josh was doing for her. Also, JoVonna implies Josh knew it was Sunday. Definitely not something he would have wanted her to confirm.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/22/ijvm.01.html

"VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jovonna, do you buy that he got confused thinking that Monday was Sunday? You were there with him on Sunday. You had dinner with him on Sunday. Was he confused about the day?

OWINGS: Not as far as I could tell at that time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean, elaborate a little bit. Didn`t you say something to me the other day that she knew she had to go to work the next day, so she decided to take a nap?

OWINGS: She was just -- she knew it was Sunday. And, you know, because we had talked about the fact that it was Sunday and that we had gone to a state conference. He was aware of that because he heard us talking."

 

[kiki the parrot]

IMO, she wanted her OLD original Josh back, after moving her away from HER FAMILY, Josh became someone Susan did not know anymore.
Been there and done that........But he was NEVER going to change........
Susan thought she could change him.

(bbm) Some of the recent discussion seems to center around what changes Susan was "requiring" of JP and whether or not these were reasonable expectations, or an ultimatum should have been given before ending her marriage. I won't presume to know w whom, nor under what circumstances nor for how long somebody else could live out the remainder of his or her life. From the outside I'll admit it sounds as though it was the symptoms--vs the cause--that was being confronted.

I think when you are dealing w a pathological narcissist tho, it's always a snare--a pitfall one must avoid at all costs--to listen to the words. NPD's (and sociopaths) are notorious for their ability to manipulate and connive w their empty words, vain promises and the vows they profess...

They confess w their mouthes, are known by their buttery smooth words, know all the right buttons to push, but ultimately they are trucebreakers who promise the moon and stars but never really believe in their hearts--and seldom if ever deliver. And evidently Susan had begun to catch on to the deception and was endeavoring to finally "try the spirits," "test the fruit," and put some real teeth in his claims--and I think JP realized he was about to fail the final exam.

Those "teeth" seem, to some, to have taken the form of (for lack of a better term) jumping thru religious "hoops." It does appear to represent the outward manifestation of the inward changes of heart for which Susan no doubt longed and prayed. Susan clearly was attempting to enlist the authority of her church on behalf of her marriage and their children. If her family was a stronger support system for her then moving back nearer to them would've been a definite step in the right direction. Bear in mind counseling or any intervention would have only been manipulated by this impostor anyway though. We need to remember expecting a controlling, arrogant, pretentious and self-involved coward and phony like JP to serve as the spiritual, physical and/or financial backbone, leader and covering of his family is never something for which he was equipped in the first place. And, as most women in Susan's shoes who carry their deadweight husband/father eventually discover if he's not helping to bear any of the burden he is w/out question adding to the load tremendously. But it is worse than that... since when you are dealing w deception, it is continual warfare, I suspect in whatever arena the deception and abuse are taking place--so that if it were spiritual abuse the warfare that takes place will be spiritual in nature. (And no I don't have article, link or author for you, that's from kikishardknox.com, lol.)

I think it's pretty understandable to feel duped and even resentful when the man to whom you believe you've entrusted your eternal, as well as temporal future, pulls an about face, cue head swivel, real life Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde act... in some instances prayer, teaching, and accountability can bring about genuine change. But deceivers have no intention of changing. And afterall, Susan herself was still saying she merely wanted the "old Josh back" or the husband "she once knew." The sad truth is, that's never who JP was, the man she believed she once "knew" was but a "part" he played, a "costume" or a "performance." He may have put more effort into sustaining that act initially while her family was around, while there was more accountability, and while still operating on the premise he could manipulate his wife by fooling her into believing his empty promises and lies.

Clearly there reached a point of diminishing returns though, when he tired of trying altogether--except in the presence of outsiders. Like all pretenders, they begin to resent wearing the mask and Josh likely came to terms even w forfeiting his wife's respect and devotion... afterall it's genuinely draining for a pretender, whose true contemptuous nature will begin to emerge, as they grow increasingly weary of donning the costume... :boohoo:

And believe you me, when the mask ultimately comes off, it really comes off--w a vengeance. JMO


arrot:

 

[kiki the parrot]

i dont know why she didnt just say " you treat me like sh*t and im outta here"

(snip) :thumb: Sounds good to me lol... and in this case, it might have saved her life.

i also wanted to add that i think since she viewed the church as the ultimate authority that it could encourage josh to "knock it off". kwim?

Agree. Only problem is... unruly, deceitful trucebreakers won't really submit to any authority--including that of the church.

Merry Christmas

Did I see that the police took the van and searched it and then returned it?

Hmm, I wonder if it now has some type of tracking device on it, kinda like they did with Scotty boy?

There are too many similarities between all these "missing wife" cases? Remember Scott said that Laci was "missing". Not gee, she's not home, have you seen her?"

Off topic, but I am thinking about the Rocha family right now. This has to be a very hard time of the year to get thru without Laci.

MomLady

Merry Christmas :star:

I think that's exactly what they did... but hopefully while they were busy installing that, they didn't forget to tail him and see what else he might be driving in the meantime... rayer:

arrot: