UT - Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 #7

[RayO]

Exactly. And I am most certain Susan's goal setting really pissed Josh off. Did you know his goal for her was that she wouldn't tell her mother things about him?

Seems to me that both of them had a very poor handle on the concept of personal goals. Both sound like demands or ultimatums to me. Neither of which are very constructive, in my opinion. I would hope their counselor told them that.

 

[PickieChickie]

Seems to me that both of them had a very poor handle on the concept of personal goals. Both sound like demands or ultimatums to me. Neither of which are very constructive, in my opinion. I would hope their counselor told them that.

It appears this counselor was highly incompetent. Of course we do not know how much Susan told this TRAINED PROFESSIONAL, but if they had the proper education, they would have been able to recognize the RED FLAGS of domestic abuse Susan was forced to suffer through.

This counselor certainly advised Susan poorly. Rather than advise Susan to leave Josh, they encourage her to set goals/ultimatums for a man who was clearly demanding that he be the supreme master of his home to the point where his children had to wear shoes that were too small, Susan had to bike 14 miles round trip to work, etc.? GIVE ME A BREAK!

A lot of blame should be cast towards this counselor for the outcome of the Susan and Josh Powell union!

 

[diphi]

It appears this counselor was highly incompetent. Of course we do not know how much Susan told this TRAINED PROFESSIONAL, but if they had the proper education, they would have been able to recognize the RED FLAGS of domestic abuse Susan was forced to suffer through.

This counselor certainly advised Susan poorly. Rather than advise Susan to leave Josh, they encourage her to set goals/ultimatums for a man who was clearly demanding that he be the supreme master of his home to the point where his children had to wear shoes that were too small, Susan had to bike 14 miles round trip to work, etc.? GIVE ME A BREAK!

A lot of blame should be cast towards this counselor for the outcome of the Susan and Josh Powell union!

We don't know what kinds of conversations they had. Perhaps the counselor did recommend she leave him, but Susan wasn't in that "place" at the time. Perhaps the counselor resorted to an approach that was more acceptable to Susan. We just don't know...Counseling isn't a one-way proposition...seems like you might have to work with what you have.

 

[grayjay]

We don't know what kinds of conversations they had. Perhaps the counselor did recommend she leave him, but Susan wasn't in that "place" at the time. Perhaps the counselor resorted to an approach that was more acceptable to Susan. We just don't know...Counseling isn't a one-way proposition...seems like you might have to work with what you have.

Do we even know if they went back and discussed these so-called goals they had come up with, with the counselor? I would definitely place some blame with the professional who failed to point out to them that their homework results could aggravate their situation and weren't goals at all, if that's what happened.

 

[gwenabob]

We don't know what kinds of conversations they had. Perhaps the counselor did recommend she leave him, but Susan wasn't in that "place" at the time. Perhaps the counselor resorted to an approach that was more acceptable to Susan. We just don't know...Counseling isn't a one-way proposition...seems like you might have to work with what you have.

I think we should wait to pass judgment on the counselor. The only information we have is second or third hand. I doubt the counselor really made it an assignment for the two of them to "make goals" for each other. I suspect it is more nuanced that that.

Probably more along the lines of each telling each other what behavior they exhibit that makes them unhappy, then going a step further and compromising or negotiating--"If I stop doing this, then you promise to do that" sort of thing. That, I can see happening.

As far as the abuse, I do think the counselor should have spotted that, but it is completely possible it was never disclosed.

 

[PickieChickie]

We don't know what kinds of conversations they had. Perhaps the counselor did recommend she leave him, but Susan wasn't in that "place" at the time. Perhaps the counselor resorted to an approach that was more acceptable to Susan. We just don't know...Counseling isn't a one-way proposition...seems like you might have to work with what you have.

I am sure the counselor asked Susan WHY she wanted to attend marriage counseling. I am sure Susan told the counselor "because Josh won't do this and that and because he does do this and that".

Susan was sharing the various abusive things Josh was doing with Tim Peterson. I'm sure she shared the same with this counselor. Susan set the goals during the counseling sessions. Clearly, she didn't come up with the idea on her own or she would have done that prior to going to see the MORMON/LDS counselor.

Also, there was a deadline for Josh to be "confirmed" by the church or whatever the term is: April of 2010.

Josh also was asked to set goals for Susan.

This clearly sounds like the counselor had everything to do with the goal setting approach.

 

[gwenabob]

I am sure the counselor asked Susan WHY she wanted to attend marriage counseling. I am sure Susan told the counselor "because Josh won't do this and that and because he does do this and that".

Susan was sharing the various abusive things Josh was doing with Tim Peterson. I'm sure she shared the same with this counselor. Susan set the goals during the counseling sessions. Clearly, she didn't come up with the idea on her own or she would have done that prior to going to see the MORMON/LDS counselor.

Also, there was a deadline for Josh to be "confirmed" by the church or whatever the term is: April of 2010.

Josh also was asked to set goals for Susan.

This clearly sounds like the counselor had everything to do with the goal setting approach.

Well, if that is truly what happened, then it was not a good approach. I think the first thing a marriage counselor would learn is that we cannot control the behavior of others. We can only control our own behavior.

But like I said, it is second and third hand information and it may have happened a little differently than how we understand it.

 

[grayjay]

This clearly sounds like the counselor had everything to do with the goal setting approach.

There's nothing wrong with a goal setting approach, if indeed GOALS get discussed and set. This doesn't sound like what happened, and we can be sure of a lot of things but not about what actually took place. Do we even know how many hours they met?

 

[GrandmaTo4]

I think we should wait to pass judgment on the counselor. The only information we have is second or third hand. I doubt the counselor really made it an assignment for the two of them to "make goals" for each other. I suspect it is more nuanced that that.

Probably more along the lines of each telling each other what behavior they exhibit that makes them unhappy, then going a step further and compromising or negotiating--"If I stop doing this, then you promise to do that" sort of thing. That, I can see happening.

As far as the abuse, I do think the counselor should have spotted that, but it is completely possible it was never disclosed.

(bbm)

It seems pretty strange that a year ago from her Wells Fargo journals Susan would have:

1. Set up a separate bank account --
2. Written a statement to her boys that she would never commit suicide or never leave them on her own accord --
3. Set up an escape plan to have a safe place to go if/when she left Josh --

But she did NOT tell the ward counselor what was truly going on in her marriage. :waitasec:

Perhaps the counselor was trained to encourage an acceptance, or even preference of male superiority/dominance within a marriage? That could certainly have kept Susan in the marriage longer than she knew was wise.

Frankly, I think a patriarchal mindset is dangerous for all women!
imho

 

[gwenabob]

(bbm)

It seems pretty strange that a year ago from her Wells Fargo journals Susan would have:

1. Set up a separate bank account --
2. Written a statement to her boys that she would never commit suicide or never leave them on her own accord --
3. Set up an escape plan to have a safe place to go if/when she left Josh --

But she did NOT tell the ward counselor what was truly going on in her marriage. :waitasec:

Perhaps the counselor was trained to encourage an acceptance, or even preference of male superiority/dominance within a marriage? That could certainly have kept Susan in the marriage longer than she knew was wise.

Frankly, I think a patriarchal mindset is dangerous for all women!
imho

When she wrote in the diary, it was private. When she met with the counselor, it was with Josh. Don't you think there might be a difference in what is disclosed in the two different scenarios?

BTW, it is not a ward counselor. It is a licensed marriage counselor who happens to work with LDS couples. And please, please, please, stop with the male superiority and patriarchal schtick. I am LDS. I know NOBODY in my church who thinks it is ok for a man to treat a woman as an inferior. NOBODY who thinks it is ok to abuse a spouse. NOBODY who thinks it is ok to look the other way when it is happening. Will you believe me? Please?

 

[gwenabob]

I have never been to (or needed) marriage counseling. I am learning a lot about the different theories and styles because of this case. I am convinced from what I have read lately that it is a big mistake for couples to meet together until the counselor is confident from meeting several times with each partner individually, that there is no abuse going on. What spouse would feel free to discuss abuse with a third party with the abuser sitting right next to them? That just seems counterintuitive!

 

[grayjay]

And please, please, please, stop with the male superiority and patriarchal schtick.

LOL I never thought of it as a schtick before, but it is. I hear they're planning to take Thomas Jefferson out of the textbooks in Texas and replace him with a woman. Oh, wait! I mean John Calvin.

If you live in the US of A you are part of a patriarchal system. Any women on your coins or paper money? Not mine.

 

[PickieChickie]

LOL I never thought of it as a schtick before, but it is. I hear they're planning to take Thomas Jefferson out of the textbooks in Texas and replace him with a woman. Oh, wait! I mean John Calvin.

If you live in the US of A you are part of a patriarchal system. Any women on your coins or paper money? Not mine.

 

[grayjay]

The same things that went on between Josh and Susan go on in countless other families based in many religions in this country, and religion plays a part in the well intended effort to keep marriages together. The underlying sickness and lack of communication skills is not addressed. As important as goals are, why are people not learning how to recognize them and to start setting them in seventh grade?

 

[gwenabob]

Those coins are lovely, and about time!

And for those who want to accuse the LDS church of being anti-women, please keep in mind the Utah was the first state in which women voted! (Wyoming was the first to allow women to vote, but Utah had an actual election first). They were way ahead of the pack on women's suffrage.

For those who don't know, my sister was murdered by her husband in 1980. She was 22. Guess what? She was not LDS. She was Methodist. Her husband? Muslim. Where were their religious leaders when the abuse was going on? Please, everyone. This happens all over regardless of religion. Let's not pretend otherwise.

 

[GrandmaTo4]

When she wrote in the diary, it was private. When she met with the counselor, it was with Josh. Don't you think there might be a difference in what is disclosed in the two different scenarios?

(bbm)

No, because there were plenty of Susan's friends and family who also knew the terrible things that were going on in the marriage, including Josh's sister. How else would we know?

No, because anytime someone writes an official, saved letter that says she would never commit suicide or leave her boys on her own accord, she has to be mighty darned scared!

Have you ever written a letter that said you would not commit suicide and made sure it was saved somewhere where your husband couldn't discover it and dispose of it? I certainly have not!

Josh told Susan she was crazy. Susan saw a mental health therapist on her own to make sure she wasn't crazy.

No, If Susan was seeing a marriage counselor within the church at that stage -- in FEAR for her life -- what was the point of NOT telling the truth about her marriage if she was seeing the counselor at all?

I also believe that Tim Peterson said that Josh didn't always participate in the marriage counseling sessions. If Susan was worried about speaking in front of Josh, she certainly could/would have communicated with the counselor during individual sessions that Josh didn't attend.

BTW, it is not a ward counselor. It is a licensed marriage counselor who happens to work with LDS couples. And please, please, please, stop with the male superiority and patriarchal schtick. I am LDS. I know NOBODY in my church who thinks it is ok for a man to treat a woman as an inferior. NOBODY who thinks it is ok to abuse a spouse. NOBODY who thinks it is ok to look the other way when it is happening. Will you believe me? Please?

It might be "a licensed marriage counselor who happens to work with LDS couples" - but 99% of the time the marriage counselor is a member in good standing of the LDS Church.

I'll be glad to believe anything you tell me about YOUR LDS congregation and/or YOUR experiences. Apparently the LDS teachings are different in Utah than in parts of California. My experience are obviously different from yours.

Our Constitutionally Protected opinions are ALL about individual perceptions and real, INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES, don't you think?

I live in an area with a very high LDS population. My three daughters grew up with many of their best friends, Mormon. I KNOW how their friends' marriages have evolved - with ward counseling.

All but two of the Mormon girls (women) have left the LDS church mostly because of the sanctioned excuses for almost any unacceptable husband-behavior.

I don't believe women should be told to constantly forgive a husband when he has multiple affairs over and over again -- or when he spends the mortgage money again and again on gambling. Do you?

All but one of the women have remarried non-Mormon men, and so far, they're doing fine. If the non-Mormon men screw-up there is no one telling the women to pray harder to forgive the husband to keep the eternal family intact.

The men know they won't have anyone in power defending them if their behavior is unacceptable. There are no sanctioned excuses from high religious authorities in their non-Mormon marriages. IMO, the relationships are much more equal and not patriarchal.

To be fair, I know a family with 5 Mormon sons and ALL of them are honorable and wonderful to their wives and children. Besides the LDS Church the boys (men) have fantastic role models with their devoted Mormon parents, who I know and deeply respect.

There are many patriarchal religions. IMO, Islam is at the head of the list. I'm very, very sorry about your sister as I'm very, very sorry about Susan.

 

[Bartleby]

(bbm)

It seems pretty strange that a year ago from her Wells Fargo journals Susan would have:

1. Set up a separate bank account --
2. Written a statement to her boys that she would never commit suicide or never leave them on her own accord --
3. Set up an escape plan to have a safe place to go if/when she left Josh --

But she did NOT tell the ward counselor what was truly going on in her marriage. :waitasec:

Perhaps the counselor was trained to encourage an acceptance, or even preference of male superiority/dominance within a marriage? That could certainly have kept Susan in the marriage longer than she knew was wise.

Frankly, I think a patriarchal mindset is dangerous for all women!
imho

I was unaware that this much detail had been released about her journal, could you give your source please?

 

[dovebar]

(bbm)

No, because there were plenty of Susan's friends and family who also knew the terrible things that were going on in the marriage, including Josh's sister. How else would we know?

No, because anytime someone writes an official, saved letter that says she would never commit suicide or leave her boys on her own accord, she has to be mighty darned scared!

Have you ever written a letter that said you would not commit suicide and made sure it was saved somewhere where your husband couldn't discover it and dispose of it? I certainly have not!

Josh told Susan she was crazy. Susan saw a mental health therapist on her own to make sure she wasn't crazy.

No, If Susan was seeing a marriage counselor within the church at that stage -- in FEAR for her life -- what was the point of NOT telling the truth about her marriage if she was seeing the counselor at all?

I also believe that Tim Peterson said that Josh didn't always participate in the marriage counseling sessions. If Susan was worried about speaking in front of Josh, she certainly could/would have communicated with the counselor during individual sessions that Josh didn't attend.



It might be "a licensed marriage counselor who happens to work with LDS couples" - but 99% of the time the marriage counselor is a member in good standing of the LDS Church.

I'll be glad to believe anything you tell me about YOUR LDS congregation and/or YOUR experiences. Apparently the LDS teachings are different in Utah than in parts of California. My experience are obviously different from yours.

Our Constitutionally Protected opinions are ALL about individual perceptions and real, INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES, don't you think?

I live in an area with a very high LDS population. My three daughters grew up with many of their best friends, Mormon. I KNOW how their friends' marriages have evolved - with ward counseling.

All but two of the Mormon girls (women) have left the LDS church mostly because of the sanctioned excuses for almost any unacceptable husband-behavior.

I don't believe women should be told to constantly forgive a husband when he has multiple affairs over and over again -- or when he spends the mortgage money again and again on gambling. Do you?

All but one of the women have remarried non-Mormon men, and so far, they're doing fine. If the non-Mormon men screw-up there is no one telling the women to pray harder to forgive the husband to keep the eternal family intact.

The men know they won't have anyone in power defending them if their behavior is unacceptable. There are no sanctioned excuses from high religious authorities in their non-Mormon marriages. IMO, the relationships are much more equal and not patriarchal.

To be fair, I know a family with 5 Mormon sons and ALL of them are honorable and wonderful to their wives and children. Besides the LDS Church the boys (men) have fantastic role models with their devoted Mormon parents, who I know and deeply respect.

There are many patriarchal religions. IMO, Islam is at the head of the list. I'm very, very sorry about your sister as I'm very, very sorry about Susan.

Good balance here. I also think it is important to note that what a Mormon woman is told may vary from one ward to the next. Also, Utah wards are known as much more conservative than wards in many other places in terms of support for a woman who is being abused.

Anyone who knew, though, that Susan had written such a letter and did not advise her to LEAVE IMMEDIATELY really has blood on their hands. People should not be living with their abusers or those they are afraid of. Couples can separate and work towards getting back together, if they think it's possible.

If there are women out there reading (or abused men), if you are afraid, please leave immediately. Please listen to your instincts screaming at you and be safe. Call family, call a shelter and take your kids and go, and worry about the logistics later. Many women have done this and avoided ending up like Susan. Some people just aren't meant to live together and you do not have to be unsafe in order to be righteous.

 

[gwenabob]

Good balance here. I also think it is important to note that what a Mormon woman is told may vary from one ward to the next. Also, Utah wards are known as much more conservative than wards in many other places in terms of support for a woman who is being abused.

Anyone who knew, though, that Susan had written such a letter and did not advise her to LEAVE IMMEDIATELY really has blood on their hands. People should not be living with their abusers or those they are afraid of. Couples can separate and work towards getting back together, if they think it's possible.

If there are women out there reading (or abused men), if you are afraid, please leave immediately. Please listen to your instincts screaming at you and be safe. Call family, call a shelter and take your kids and go, and worry about the logistics later. Many women have done this and avoided ending up like Susan. Some people just aren't meant to live together and you do not have to be unsafe in order to be righteous.

AFAIK, it was only her co-workers at Wells Fargo who knew about the secret journal that she kept in her desk. I have not heard of any other friends outside of work who knew of it first hand.

 

[gwenabob]

(bbm)

No, because there were plenty of Susan's friends and family who also knew the terrible things that were going on in the marriage, including Josh's sister. How else would we know?

No, because anytime someone writes an official, saved letter that says she would never commit suicide or leave her boys on her own accord, she has to be mighty darned scared!

Have you ever written a letter that said you would not commit suicide and made sure it was saved somewhere where your husband couldn't discover it and dispose of it? I certainly have not!

Josh told Susan she was crazy. Susan saw a mental health therapist on her own to make sure she wasn't crazy.

No, If Susan was seeing a marriage counselor within the church at that stage -- in FEAR for her life -- what was the point of NOT telling the truth about her marriage if she was seeing the counselor at all?

I also believe that Tim Peterson said that Josh didn't always participate in the marriage counseling sessions. If Susan was worried about speaking in front of Josh, she certainly could/would have communicated with the counselor during individual sessions that Josh didn't attend.



It might be "a licensed marriage counselor who happens to work with LDS couples" - but 99% of the time the marriage counselor is a member in good standing of the LDS Church.

I'll be glad to believe anything you tell me about YOUR LDS congregation and/or YOUR experiences. Apparently the LDS teachings are different in Utah than in parts of California. My experience are obviously different from yours.

Our Constitutionally Protected opinions are ALL about individual perceptions and real, INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES, don't you think?

I live in an area with a very high LDS population. My three daughters grew up with many of their best friends, Mormon. I KNOW how their friends' marriages have evolved - with ward counseling.

All but two of the Mormon girls (women) have left the LDS church mostly because of the sanctioned excuses for almost any unacceptable husband-behavior.

I don't believe women should be told to constantly forgive a husband when he has multiple affairs over and over again -- or when he spends the mortgage money again and again on gambling. Do you?

All but one of the women have remarried non-Mormon men, and so far, they're doing fine. If the non-Mormon men screw-up there is no one telling the women to pray harder to forgive the husband to keep the eternal family intact.

The men know they won't have anyone in power defending them if their behavior is unacceptable. There are no sanctioned excuses from high religious authorities in their non-Mormon marriages. IMO, the relationships are much more equal and not patriarchal.

To be fair, I know a family with 5 Mormon sons and ALL of them are honorable and wonderful to their wives and children. Besides the LDS Church the boys (men) have fantastic role models with their devoted Mormon parents, who I know and deeply respect.

There are many patriarchal religions. IMO, Islam is at the head of the list. I'm very, very sorry about your sister as I'm very, very sorry about Susan.

No, I don't believe women should be expected to forgive husbands bad behavior over and over. Nope.

This reminds me of a co-worker of mine. She has two boys and her husband has had multiple affairs. She almost left him last year, but didn't. She felt that she needed to be more forgiving. She's Catholic. And a lawyer.

Let's face it. Men and women of all faiths screw up. Let's stop blaming any one faith for it. This is turning into another Grandma Mormon bashing session and if it doesn't stop, I will complain.