Identified! VA - Annandale, WhtFem 245UFVA, ~60, 'NO CODE, DNR, No Penicillin', Dec'96

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  • #781
[modsnip] the majority of the burials in that cemetery are African-American, which makes it less likely that she's connected to any of those children.

As for the date on the police contact -- you need more time than what can be accounted for by a one-day police log discrepancy. The drive from Lincoln, Nebraska to northern Virginia is at least 22 hours -- and that's driving time. It doesn't take into account gas stops, meals, sleep. You need at least a two-day discrepancy, and that would assume she drove as fast as she could and committed suicide the moment she got there, which doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of her careful planning.

Possibly she flew, of course, and that would make things a little more workable, but I think you're still talking more time than can be accounted for by a mistake in clock rollover.

[modsnip]

Where exactly did you get this previously unknown information that she had to be in Nebraska at the time she received that call? [modsnip]. They did have cell phones back then which allowed people to communicate from wherever they happened to be. And actually, we don't even know yet who contacted who. Maybe SHE contacted the police. I know somebody here suggested that possibility. You can't just negate a person as a possible match simply because one lone scenario that you came up with doesn't work.

<modsnip>
 
  • #782
I had never read about the fanny pack. For some reason, that strikes me as out of place.

I wonder if she would be annoyed that so many people want to identify her?


No, I hadn't heard about the fanny pack either.

Everything she had with her was just plain weird. High brow clothes...redneck entertainment...a child's fannypack...a Christmas tree. And possibly the most apathetic suicide note in all of history. If she was trying to come off as mundane and forgettable she really missed the mark. Or maybe she didn't miss the mark at all. Maybe this is exactly what she wanted -- a way to be remembered.

Just a thought.
 
  • #783
I had never read about the fanny pack. For some reason, that strikes me as out of place.

I wonder if she would be annoyed that so many people want to identify her?


Probably. Or maybe in death she regrets her decision.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #784
I just came across this woman...heartbreaking. I think she will be very hard to find out who she is, something about the location and little Christmas tree with her makes me think she lost a child as a baby, and that likely her husband had recently passed away and therefore there is no one looking for her. If, after her husbands passing, she had told neighbors she was moving, she could have sold her house and any belongings and no one would have thought twice about it.

I wish I had time to read over each post to see if this was done, but I hope they looked at all local hotels and extended stay places.
 
  • #785
I'm new to all this, but just wanted to see if anyone had looked at Renata Rybacka. Extreme long shot, but her face looks similar to me, and it says she was reported missing on February 14, 1997, but not when she was last seen. Do we know anything more about her? http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/309dfpol.html
 
  • #786
I just came across this woman...heartbreaking. I think she will be very hard to find out who she is, something about the location and little Christmas tree with her makes me think she lost a child as a baby, and that likely her husband had recently passed away and therefore there is no one looking for her. If, after her husbands passing, she had told neighbors she was moving, she could have sold her house and any belongings and no one would have thought twice about it.

I too have thought the same, especially with so many rule outs. I had posted that this case reminds me of Alice Crimmins. She was a promiscuous redhead accused of murdering her children and convicted based solely on her lifestyle in the late 60's early 70's.

Her second husband died in 98 and I believe everything was left to his son. I have not been able to establish if she was with him at time of death nor if she is still alive. She would most likely not want to be known nor would she be reported as missing...


Classito
 
  • #787
Sorry if I snarked at you, Poky...
 
  • #788
Okay, how can we determine what type of contact Shirley had with Nebraska LE and who contacted who? There has to be a way to clear that up. Otherwise we're getting nowhere unless someone submits her.
 
  • #789
  • #790
Okay, how can we determine what type of contact Shirley had with Nebraska LE and who contacted who? There has to be a way to clear that up. Otherwise we're getting nowhere unless someone submits her.

I've found the names of a number of Shirley's relatives. I Facebook messaged one of them asking if he knew her. I haven't heard back. But I may not. If not, I'll try getting ahold of some others. Maybe one of them will have a photo of her or will be able to ID her in the photo. And I wonder if there isn't an old photo of Shirley on FaceBook somewhere, perhaps in an old family or friend photo that's been auto-tagged. Though I don't know how we could get to it.

As far as communication with the authorities I've contacted the Detective at Shirley's end. He's the one who had submitted her DNA. He considers her a possibility, but I don't know how seriously yet. That'll change soon enough, though. Still, he's really at the more helpless end of things. All he can really do is wait for the DNA results to come back and maybe try making a little noise to speed things up. So perhaps what we need to do is contact the M.E. in Virginia. It may not help, though, since DNA is the only physical evidence they have, and that may be hung up in an independent lab somewhere.

Now, communication with the Lincoln authorities, I have no idea how to go about that. I seriously doubt any of them would be loose-lipped enough to tell us anything. Especially about an unsolved case. Unless somehow we managed to approach it the right way. Does anybody have any ideas?
 
  • #791
Local criminology students offering to help study and solve it?
 
  • #792
Do we know for sure that the detectives spoke with Shirley on December 19th, the day after Jane Doe was found? If they're right, that would rule her out, wouldn't it?
 
  • #793
Do we know for sure that the detectives spoke with Shirley on December 19th, the day after Jane Doe was found? If they're right, that would rule her out, wouldn't it?

All we know is what is in her Namus file, which states that she "had contact with Nebraska LE" that day. My assumption was that it occurred IN Nebraska, which would rule her out. But as Pokey has pointed out, we don't know enough to assume that the contact was in person or even if the date is correct.
 
  • #794
I've found the names of a number of Shirley's relatives. I Facebook messaged one of them asking if he knew her. I haven't heard back. But I may not. If not, I'll try getting ahold of some others. Maybe one of them will have a photo of her or will be able to ID her in the photo. And I wonder if there isn't an old photo of Shirley on FaceBook somewhere, perhaps in an old family or friend photo that's been auto-tagged. Though I don't know how we could get to it.

As far as communication with the authorities I've contacted the Detective at Shirley's end. He's the one who had submitted her DNA. He considers her a possibility, but I don't know how seriously yet. That'll change soon enough, though. Still, he's really at the more helpless end of things. All he can really do is wait for the DNA results to come back and maybe try making a little noise to speed things up. So perhaps what we need to do is contact the M.E. in Virginia. It may not help, though, since DNA is the only physical evidence they have, and that may be hung up in an independent lab somewhere.

Now, communication with the Lincoln authorities, I have no idea how to go about that. I seriously doubt any of them would be loose-lipped enough to tell us anything. Especially about an unsolved case. Unless somehow we managed to approach it the right way. Does anybody have any ideas?

Thanks for the update (and all the work!). Since we're waiting for Shirley's DNA and then (if I understand you correctly) either you or the detective will submit her (or Namus will find the match), it seems silly for us to keep questioning this possible match. I say, people who consider Shirley to be a match should keep researching that angle and people who don't can keep researching other options. At this point, I don't think you should have to keep defending this possible match to us, because you've already gotten the ball rolling with the detective. Time will (hopefully) tell! :twocents:
 
  • #795
Thanks for the update (and all the work!). Since we're waiting for Shirley's DNA and then (if I understand you correctly) either you or the detective will submit her (or Namus will find the match), it seems silly for us to keep questioning this possible match. I say, people who consider Shirley to be a match should keep researching that angle and people who don't can keep researching other options. At this point, I don't think you should have to keep defending this possible match to us, because you've already gotten the ball rolling with the detective. Time will (hopefully) tell! :twocents:

Well, the truth is that I already know it's her. And please don't take that as arrogance, it's not. There was a miscommunication, I suppose, when I first commented and presented the overlay. I said it was a "perfect match" and you guys pointed out that it was unlikely because "perfect matches", based on the same overlay technique have fallen flat before. Well I have since seen an example of those overlays and the distinction is that those were not perfect matches. They were not painstakingly measured, as was mine, and the features did not line up.

I respect everybody's right to post their own opinions and theories here, and I merely ask for the same in return. So while I won't re-post the overlay, I do want the chance to at least explain how meticulously I created it, without it being dismissed out of hand based on a lack of information.

Those other overlays were not perfect matches. The one I did is. I spent an entire day making sure that both images were the EXACT same size and angle, down to a third of a millimeter, which was the smallest unit of measure. The proportions were maintained exactly. No wiggle room. Then I lined up both right eyes, again down to a third of a millimeter. I went back and forth repeatedly until they were EXACTLY one over top of the other.

At that point either everything would fall into place (if it was Shirley) or it wouldn't (which would mean it couldn't be Shirley). And by "falling into place", I mean as precisely as the right eye did under such a small unit of measure. It did. Everything from one picture laid precisely over the other. Now just to verify that the mouth was correct too, I tested my own face making similar expressions. It was identical to how Shirley's mouth lined up. They line up at the separation in the teeth, at the top of the bottom lip. And if you could arc the line of the straight mouth it would align perfectly with the smiling mouth. I lined the noses up separately too, because of the slight variation in photos. Also a perfect match. Not because they "look right" but because all of the spacial elements fall on the grid in the exact same locations...without variance of more than + or - 1/3 mm. That would be "statistically impossible"...maybe not to have two matching faces in the same world...but certainly out of the few people missing that otherwise match demographically. The starting measurement for Jane Doe's left eye was something like dot number 2034 on a grid of thousands of dots, and Shirley's fell on the exact same number -- 2034.

So, I guess that's what I was trying to convey before. I am a detail person and I can linger on details for days in order to ensure absolute precision. Actually, I have Autism and that is one of the things that we do exceptionally well. We "connect dots", so to speak.

This doesn't mean that others have to believe me or agree with me. But I did want the chance to defend the process I used as it had been called into question.
 
  • #796
Poky - now I'm excited!!!!
 
  • #797
My hesitation with the overlay technique is that the drawing will have inaccuracies.

That said, the hold up isn't with Shirley's DNA, it is with Jane's. Shirley's sample has been submitted and tests are complete. Jane's samples have been submitted but are not complete. It seems odd that her tests aren't done; I wonder if there has been an issue with the sample.
 
  • #798
I'm excited too! How amazing would it be to finally give her a name??
 
  • #799
My hesitation with the overlay technique is that the drawing will have inaccuracies.

That said, the hold up isn't with Shirley's DNA, it is with Jane's. Shirley's sample has been submitted and tests are complete. Jane's samples have been submitted but are not complete. It seems odd that her tests aren't done; I wonder if there has been an issue with the sample.

Exactly; not trying to discount your hard work, Poky, but I assume you compared a slightly angled photo of Shirley to an artist's rendition of a morgue photo... I've yet to see an artist's rendition that looks 110% spot on.

But, time will tell. Hopefully it's a match. And, of course, thank you for all your time and dedication!
 
  • #800
My hesitation with the overlay technique is that the drawing will have inaccuracies.

That said, the hold up isn't with Shirley's DNA, it is with Jane's. Shirley's sample has been submitted and tests are complete. Jane's samples have been submitted but are not complete. It seems odd that her tests aren't done; I wonder if there has been an issue with the sample.

You are exactly right! Your logic is essentially sound. But see, what I'm saying is...that drawing is NOT a drawing; it's a photo that was photoshopped with an effect to make it look like a drawing. There's a lot of info on the web about forensic photoshopping. I'm by no means an expert on the subject but I do know that they do this.

And remember, Jane Doe had a perfectly recognizable face; there's no need for a reconstructionist to create a drawing from scratch. Or even trace by hand. It's not only faster and easier these days to make a photo look like a drawing, simply by applying a filter or effect, but they can maintain 100% accuracy in doing so.

And logically speaking, do you know how unlikely the odds would be of a perfect match, again down to fractions of a mm, between Shirley Sprang's facial features and the features of a person who was "created by accident"? For a real face to line up identically with a face created by inaccuracies? That would be even less likely -- FAR less likely, statistically -- than for two actual faces to line up. Two actual faces lining up just means you've got the same person. Otherwise it would mean that whoever created the drawing (if it was actually drawn) hit the jackpot of extreme coincidence and accidentally drew the face of Shirley Sprang, somebody she likely didn't even know existed, and who coincidentally was also missing in the U.S. during the same time as they discovered that body, and all by accident while intending to draw an entirely different person. It just wouldn't happen.

That said, though, it's okay if you don't believe in what I am saying; I just needed the chance to explain the accuracy that I put into it. I have a beyond-healthy dose of OCD so I can burrow down into microscopic details for days...and love it :)
 
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