VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #1

[JoeFromLB]

I'm not denying that KindraLore. I'm just expressing my opinion at this point, which I will change if new evidence comes forward. I have no doubt that Sam created a gruesome murder scene complete with satanic messages or symbols. But I think he was working alone. For now, I think the trigger was jealousy and rejection which unleashed the macabre fantasies he's been immersed in since he was 10 years old.

Well, your's is a reasonable explanation, of course. It could have been entirely as you describe.
As you've pointed out, we need more evidence to get a clearer picture of the motive, and/or the possibility of others being involved. I'm sure the detectives are looking into all the angles, and will go where the evidence leads.

Consider also the possibility he had been planning to kill for some time, but was still undecided on the details and/or victims. Jealousy and feelings of rejection may have been the triggers to push him over the edge into impulsively acting out what he had previously conceived of in his sick mind.

 

[absynthminded1]

The whole SKR movement is absolutely shameless in its flaunting of the illegal and immoral. I have seen photos of Sicktanick and Razakel (presumably both WELL OVER 21) partying with minors...and I'm sure they aren't passing the bottle and the pipe around the youngins... I have also seen photos of blood rituals, which they call "Communion."

Here you have a record label, owned and run by two self-professed Satanists, filling the minds of the young and impressionable with dark theology/ideology, and fueling it all with excessive drugs and alcohol.

Here's Syko Sam in a disturbing photo that made its way to the SKR fan pics section..

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it doesn't take much to come to the conclusion that some fans would literally kill for these folks.

I do believe this crime was rooted in jealousy, betrayal, and rejection, but I am willing to consider that it all runs much deeper and darker.

 

[thesaint]

I've read through this thread and I don't think any prior posts have asked this question or this line of questions/thoughts.


Did Emma's father, Pastor Mark Niederbrock, simply stumble into his previous residence and get ambushed by Sam?

If the Pastor was just an unlucky, naive, unknowing, unsuspecting victim, he should NOT necessarily have been.

Why?

Well, I know when I go to visit someone I call ahead.

Did the pastor call ahead?

If he did, when?

Thursday, the day he drives to the house and is, presumably, killed by Sam. He surely should've at least called his wife and / or daughter's cell phones that morning and let them know he'd be by later. And when he actually rolls into town, you'd think he'd ring and say, "Hey, I'm here."

But the father-pastor wouldn't actually have bee able to speak to either his wife or daughter--which should strike him as suspicious and put him on-guard / in a state of alert.

Wednesday day/Wednesday night--the police statements suggest that at least 2 victims were dead by then. Again, if the pastor called his daughter's cell phone or his wife's and gets no answer...? Maybe he and his wife have a strained relationship, but all indications are that Emma and her father were still close. She hiked with his church, he drove her to a similar horrorcore concert in December last year and drove her and Sam to the horrorcore event in Michigan over the weekend prior to the killings.

By Thursday, he likely hasn't been able to get either the mother/his wife or his daughter on either of their phones for at least 2 days now, correct? (maybe, maybe not).


And if the killings, or at least some of the killings, happened over night on
Monday into Tuesday, it would have been all day Tuesday, all day Wednesday and then Thursday with the father-pastor unable to raise either his wife or his daughter by phone....

That should've set off all manner of alarms for the pastor, who was well-familiar with Sam's music interests and had spent a couple days in a car with Sam.


So why isn't the pastor-father either/both (i) suspicious at all (tho maybe he was) (ii) concerned about his unreachable wife and, especially, daughter earlier than Thursday?

Or did he call Emma's phone and Sam answered and provided some bs rationale for why Emma wasn't there? And would the pastor have bought it?
The police getting duped by Sam is one thing, the father who was concerned about his daughter and familiar with Sam's interests taking Sam's word for why his daughter couldn't come to the phone?

Or, if there were 2 initial victims and then the 3rd victim was still alive for a day or two...was the third Emma and was she communicating with her father, either voluntarily or under duress from Sam?

The above is all speculation based on the limited available facts.

The police will have all involved persons cell phone records and know who called whom and when.

It seems like the Pastor's trip to check on things on Thursday was born out of concern/suspicion--but why wasn't he suspicious sooner?

and why wasn't he more concerned about/alert to the possibilities than to walk into that house all alone and without telling anyone else his thoughts/the situation when he likely hadn't been able to reach anyone in that house in days?

Or had he been in communication with someone inside the house and they were expecting him on Thursday?

 

[KindraLore]

The whole SKR movement is absolutely shameless in its flaunting of the illegal and immoral. I have seen photos of Sicktanick and Razakel (presumably both WELL OVER 21) partying with minors...and I'm sure they aren't passing the bottle and the pipe around the youngins... I have also seen photos of blood rituals, which they call "Communion."

Here you have a record label, owned and run by two self-professed Satanists, filling the minds of the young and impressionable with dark theology/ideology, and fueling it all with excessive drugs and alcohol.

Here's Syko Sam is a disturbing photo that made its way to the SKR fan pics section..

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it doesn't take much to come to the conclusion that some fans would literally kill for these folks.

I do believe this crime was rooted in jealousy, betrayal, and rejection, but I am willing to consider that it all runs much deeper and darker.

I completely agree. I found this picture disturbing as well:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=82208110&albumID=3020746&imageID=51740238

Is this an "unholy baptism"??

 

[LadyL]

I suppose its possible. The trip from farmville to the concert was estimated around 11 hours 12 minutes...with a car full of people you should probably add time for bathroom stops and time for sleeping. I would imagine it could have taken them several days. But I honestly do not believe everything out of Sam's mouth. Remember his sister said he was being a smart when he said jesus made him do it. And he has been calm and collected the whole time. Compulsive liars are really good at what they do. No one would know if he were lying probably.

The other thing I mentioned a while ago was the comment on his blog...well as you know his site has been taken down but I googled it and this comes up...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS343&q=lildemondog+the+prophecy+will+be+fulfilled&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

I saved the screen picture in my computer if you tell me how to post it, I will

Thank you so much for finding that! :bow:

You have no idea how much it was bugging me that I couldn't find it again (I was wondering if it had gotten deleted or if I had imagined it - lol) & then last night (in bed!), I remembered where I had seen it :doh:

& was going to link it today after work but you posted it first & saved me the trouble. Thank you!

You know I've got it bad for WS when I'm thinking about a case when I should be falling asleep ... :beamup:

 

[forgottencash]

I don't think it would be unusual for the pastor to not be in touch with his daughter for a few days while she has friends visiting. It certainly wouldn't be unusual not to be in touch with his estranged wife. My understanding is that Mel's mom called to say that she was concerned and he agreed to drop by the house to check things out. He still may have just thought he was dealing with a couple of recalcitrant kids. Who knows how Sam managed to overpower him, but if had no reason to be suspicious, and if he had a key, he may have just walked right in to an ambush. If there was an old fashioned answering machine in the house, Sam may have had warning that he was coming.

 

[thesaint]

I don't think it would be unusual for the pastor to not be in touch with his daughter for a few days while she has friends visiting. It certainly wouldn't be unusual not to be in touch with his estranged wife. My understanding is that Mel's mom called to say that she was concerned and he agreed to drop by the house to check things out. He still may have just thought he was dealing with a couple of recalcitrant kids. Who knows how Sam managed to overpower him, but if had no reason to be suspicious, and if he had a key, he may have just walked right in to an ambush. If there was an old fashioned answering machine in the house, Sam may have had warning that he was coming.

When I first read about this case, that was my thinking. But after reading about how the father-pastor was the one who drove them to Michigan for the horrorcore event and had driven Emily to similar events previously, as well as some background on Emma's relationship with her father (they were close and got along ok)--it seems that he'd have his father/husband antenna up for anything out of the ordinary happening with his daughter or at that house while Syko Sam was staying there.

But maybe not. Still, Emma had a cell phone, why couldn't he simply call her and ask after Melanie? And if he tries Emma's phone and she doesn't answer or call him back?

If they were that close and he was that familiar with Syko Sam and his interests, no answer / no call-back etc should have had him heading to the house asap, but with caution.

Or did someone answer Emma's phone when the pastor called it Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday.

 

[absynthminded1]

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...907055&imageUserID=268809796&imageID=18613769

Just a little ironic, huh?

 

[LadyL]

I've read through this thread and I don't think any prior posts have asked this question or this line of questions/thoughts.


Did Emma's father, Pastor Mark Niederbrock, simply stumble into his previous residence and get ambushed by Sam?

If the Pastor was just an unlucky, naive, unknowing, unsuspecting victim, he should NOT necessarily have been.

Why?

Well, I know when I go to visit someone I call ahead.

Did the pastor call ahead?

If he did, when?

Thursday, the day he drives to the house and is, presumably, killed by Sam. He surely should've at least called his wife and / or daughter's cell phones that morning and let them know he'd be by later. And when he actually rolls into town, you'd think he'd ring and say, "Hey, I'm here."

But the father-pastor wouldn't actually have bee able to speak to either his wife or daughter--which should strike him as suspicious and put him on-guard / in a state of alert.

Wednesday day/Wednesday night--the police statements suggest that at least 2 victims were dead by then. Again, if the pastor called his daughter's cell phone or his wife's and gets no answer...? Maybe he and his wife have a strained relationship, but all indications are that Emma and her father were still close. She hiked with his church, he drove her to a similar horrorcore concert in December last year and drove her and Sam to the horrorcore event in Michigan over the weekend prior to the killings.

By Thursday, he likely hasn't been able to get either the mother/his wife or his daughter on either of their phones for at least 2 days now, correct? (maybe, maybe not).


And if the killings, or at least some of the killings, happened over night on
Monday into Tuesday, it would have been all day Tuesday, all day Wednesday and then Thursday with the father-pastor unable to raise either his wife or his daughter by phone....

That should've set off all manner of alarms for the pastor, who was well-familiar with Sam's music interests and had spent a couple days in a car with Sam.


So why isn't the pastor-father either/both (i) suspicious at all (tho maybe he was) (ii) concerned about his unreachable wife and, especially, daughter earlier than Thursday?

Or did he call Emma's phone and Sam answered and provided some bs rationale for why Emma wasn't there? And would the pastor have bought it?
The police getting duped by Sam is one thing, the father who was concerned about his daughter and familiar with Sam's interests taking Sam's word for why his daughter couldn't come to the phone?

Or, if there were 2 initial victims and then the 3rd victim was still alive for a day or two...was the third Emma and was she communicating with her father, either voluntarily or under duress from Sam?

The above is all speculation based on the limited available facts.

The police will have all involved persons cell phone records and know who called whom and when.

It seems like the Pastor's trip to check on things on Thursday was born out of concern/suspicion--but why wasn't he suspicious sooner?

and why wasn't he more concerned about/alert to the possibilities than to walk into that house all alone and without telling anyone else his thoughts/the situation when he likely hadn't been able to reach anyone in that house in days?

Or had he been in communication with someone inside the house and they were expecting him on Thursday?

it states in a link somewhere recently in this thread that he was on the phone with his mother when another call came in from Melanie's mother, who asked him to go check on the girls - he hung up from his mother & that's the last time she spoke to her only son

 

[JoeFromLB]

I recall reading that "SickTanic" (real name: Andres/Andreas Shrim) is 35 years old and residing in New Mexico.

 

[forgottencash]

These were not easy kids. I can't imagine there weren't times when there were a lot more than unreturned phone calls. How did they get to the point of having to take her to the concert? Perhaps experience told them that she would get there without them? I just don't think she checked in with Dad every day. I doubt he was concerned that he had not heard from them - no news is good news. Others said that Sam could be very considerate and probably came across as a quiet, shy kid. We also don't know if Dad knew how old he is. I don't think Dad was particularly worried when he drove up to the house - maybe a little annoyed even at having to check things out. He didn't live in the house and Mom was home. It wouldn't surprise me if he had even expected to hear from them or had tried to reach them.

 

[LadyL]

I'm thinking Sam answered the door, just as he did when the cops showed up, and then what happened, happened.

Sam's calm demeanor makes me uneasy ... makes me question SKR involvement & just leaves me unsettled, like there's much more to this than a spurned boy.

 

[thesaint]

it states in a link somewhere recently in this thread that he was on the phone with his mother when another call came in from Melanie's mother, who asked him to go check on the girls - he hung up from his mother & that's the last time she spoke to her only son

Ah, thanks.

So first thing dad most likely does is call his wife to see what's up and she doesn't answer because she's already been murdered by Sam and the pastor leaves a message asking about Melanie and asking that his wife call him back as Melanie's parents are concerned.

And the wife never calls him back.

And he probably leaves a similar message on Emma's voice mail, and Emma never calls him back.

It's possible/likely Sam had Emma's cell phone and maybe everyone's in the house at that point. According to one of the people who encountered Sam on his journey to the airport, it was a text message on Emma's phone that sparked the fight between them. So Sam was already snooping around Emma's phone before the murdrers.

It'd be easy enough for Sam to check her voice mails or even the mother's over the course of those days. Most cell phones you just push a button and it goes right into the phone's v-mail and you can listen without entering any codes.

 

[JoeFromLB]

It's interesting how they present one face to the public and another to their friends and associates. As noted above, "SickTanic" and friends intend to ratchet up their music in terms of violence, "blasphemy", and general wickedness, while telling reporters that their activities are basically nothing than harmless fun and fantasy.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_13379099?source=most_emailed

EXCERPT:
One of the best-known horrorcore rappers, Pittsburg native Mario Delgado, told the Bay Area News Group that McCroskey traveled to many of his shows and sent him messages on MySpace. Delgado, who performs under the name Mars, said his violent lyrics do not condone murder.

"That's what I sing about in my music, but it's pretend," he said. "But kids like this, it alters the way they're thinking.

"It may inspire people to (kill), but normal people don't do that."

The owner of a small, independent record label that specializes in the horrorcore genre said others shouldn't judge McCroskey by what they see on his Web site or hear in his music. Andres Shrim, who owns Serial Killin Records in New Mexico and performs under the name SickTanicK, described McCroskey as a "great kid" — articulate, smart and professional.

Shrim said he has known McCroskey at least two years.

"You would never, ever imagine that kid even being a suspect," Shrim said. "If he is found to be guilty, I would be 100 percent shocked."


(Oh, my. Shocked he would be!!)
insert "sarcasm" tag here...

 

[JoeFromLB]

I'm thinking Sam answered the door, just as he did when the cops showed up, and then what happened, happened.

Sam's calm demeanor makes me uneasy ... makes me question SKR involvement & just leaves me unsettled, like there's much more to this than a spurned boy.

(respectfully bolded.)

http://www.norfolk.com/2009/09/exdetectives-occult-expertise-sought-farmville-slayings


EXCERPT:
Pentagrams, goat heads, the Church of Satan. Don Rimer knows a lot about such things.

The retired Beach police detective is an expert on occult crime and has been called by Virginia State Police to go to Farmville to help analyze the deaths of four people whose bodies were discovered Sept. 18 in the small college town west of Richmond.

"I'm sure they want me to help them understand what they have.... This is a unique case for them," Rimer said. "They're going to be asking me a lot of questions."

..."This isn't the first crime where people have died because of getting involved in things that deal with dangerous elements," Rimer said. "Unfortunately, the girls were involved in a very dangerous kind of music. This is not your routine heavy metal... really way beyond Marilyn Manson or that kind of thing."

 

[absynthminded1]

Another Don Rimer case link:

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_...ach_occult_expert_heads_to_farmville_20090924

Speaking only to WAVY.com, Rimer says what magnified the terrifying scene was where investigators found the bodies of husband and wife Debra Kelley and Mark Neiderbrock, their teenage daughter Emma, and her friend, Melanie Wells. Strange symbols were also found in the home.

"They were satanic in nature," said Rimer.

 

[thesaint]

it states in a link somewhere recently in this thread that he was on the phone with his mother when another call came in from Melanie's mother, who asked him to go check on the girls - he hung up from his mother & that's the last time she spoke to her only son

Sept 17 Mark Niderbrock has phone call with church treasurer, says he is going to Richmond for a meeting,

According to the news reports on this, "Mark Niederbrock was last heard from on Thursday, when he told the church treasurer he was going to Richmond for a meeting".


So does the pastor hang up with his mother and then call the treasurer and not tell the treasurer the truth about where he's going that afternoon/evening? If the Treasurer was the last person to speak to the father, the phone call had to be after the calls with Melanie's mother and Mark's own mother (which were around 2:30 pm).

 

[nursebeeme]

Well, your's is a reasonable explanation, of course. It could have been entirely as you describe.
As you've pointed out, we need more evidence to get a clearer picture of the motive, and/or the possibility of others being involved. I'm sure the detectives are looking into all the angles, and will go where the evidence leads.

Consider also the possibility he had been planning to kill for some time, but was still undecided on the details and/or victims. Jealousy and feelings of rejection may have been the triggers to push him over the edge into impulsively acting out what he had previously conceived of in his sick mind.

Joe, I have respectfully bolded, underline, italicized, etc, your post!

ITA BTW.

In my humble opinion this was an imature kid, possibly with ADHD or some other condition that impaired his impulse control (to include drug use). His music genre of choice planted murder in his head like a big, bright blossom of "what might be"... I do not see any planning in this crime... but I do think that this music culture provided a pre~game canvas in his mind of murder.. even if it were just a few flashes in his mind much like a music video.

So a girlfriend rejects him.. one he had his complete and utter sights on... instead of respecting the boundaries of all things humane he acts on his fantasies... (lack of impulse control kicking in)...

Does this make any sense? could anyone else see it happening this way?

The way in which he conducted himself after the fact seemed very over~~the~~top~~defense~~mechanism if that would be the case.... but even if unsavory, and hard to swallow, very likely in my opinion.

 

[absynthminded1]

Part of me wonders about the chronology of the deaths and whether the girls were the last two to be murdered. What if (and this could be a big what if) the girls were actually involved in the deaths of the parents, to some capacity, and were killed when they realized the gravity of the situation and panicked?

It wouldn't be the first time that we heard of a child directly participating in the murder of a parent.

 

[nursebeeme]

I tend to think that once he got started on killing he already had the 'tools in his toolbox' of a brain to keep going and going and going and making the crime more and more elaborate until he painted himself into a virtual corner.

Does anyone see his behavior at the arrest as sort of, 'come to terms' with what he has done? kinda like... yeah.. you caught me.. yeah.. I did it... whatever.... with no thought of what consequences he will pay in the very near future for all the life he has raped from mother earth in the murder of all these people!