VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #1

[VCDaedalus]

Also, I seem to see an element of competitiveness in this scene. And how does one compete for status and access to the womenfolk? By being "more" than the other guy. More tattoos, more tongue-flashing, more declarations of evil, more blood (fake or otherwise). Maybe it's a real feather in one's cap to have been there when someone, like, died. Maybe the really cool people can talk about murders they knew about or witnessed (but, like, nobody knows).

Halloween is about the best costume, and video games are about points and levels. Horrorcore's Holy Grail is Somebody Dies.

 

[VCDaedalus]

People attend Halloween, Mardi Gras, New Years, and 4th of July celebrations because they are public events where alcohol is served, music is performed, and public drunkenness is somewhat tolerated. It has nothing to do with believing that spirits roam the night before All Saints Day or death worship. The music may be death metal or it may be honky-tonk or R&B, and the music may not be connected to spirit worship at all. No one goes there planning to get another slash mark or be Deathliest Of All.

Events that plan for hundreds or thousands of people, serve alcohol, and let it all mingle on city streets will always have violence and crime. It has nothing to do with the reason for the event or the significance of the date or holiday.

 

[dangrsmind]

The "mystery" of declining violent crime rates is 1) not necessarily a fact--it may only apply to the United States and may be a result of cooked statistics or cherry-picking; 2) does not address whether horrorcore fans are murderous as a result of their lifestyle and desideratae. All violent crime is not related to horrorcore. Your statement would be relevant only if that were true.

Read the literature. the decline is real in the U.S. and it is a mystery. I don't know about the global crime rate or whether similar declines are observed elsewhere. Will research this...

Again, most horrorcore fans do not commit murders. Why?

 

[dangrsmind]

Also, I seem to see an element of competitiveness in this scene. And how does one compete for status and access to the womenfolk? By being "more" than the other guy. More tattoos, more tongue-flashing, more declarations of evil, more blood (fake or otherwise). Maybe it's a real feather in one's cap to have been there when someone, like, died. Maybe the really cool people can talk about murders they knew about or witnessed (but, like, nobody knows).

Halloween is about the best costume, and video games are about points and levels. Horrorcore's Holy Grail is Somebody Dies.

I think the sexual status aspect is an interesting angle, however I see no evidence that "the really cool people can talk about murders they knew about or witnessed" or that "Horrorcore's Holy Grail is Somebody Dies".

I'd like to hear this from someone involved in the scene.

 

[Nikolai]

Is this fake also?

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1462425&imageID=36429753

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1462425&imageID=36429833

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1462425&imageID=36429856

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1462425&imageID=45796141

I cannot say for sure. Does it make it any less disturbing if it is fake?? To me the answer is no.

Who cares, this is what extreme fans of this music do, stupid immature things. Nearly none of them will ever commit murder. All artists and music have extreme "cult" like fans that take it too seriously, like dead heads following the grateful Dead around the country while doing acid. I will agree its idiotic and most in 10 years will look back in embarrassment. Fans in death metal do this type of thing as well. Even Marilyn Manson hardcore fans do stupid things like this. This seems like it has more become the music police than about these murders.

 

[KindraLore]

Delgado, who raps about raping and killing people, said he does not condone murder but also said he believes his lyrics might have influenced McCroskey. Delgado said a Farmville investigator called him yesterday to discuss that angle.


“If the wrong kind of kid gets a hold of this music and takes it the wrong way,” Delgado said. “then it could be a dangerous thing.”


Delgado has been connected with violent events before. Jeff Wiese, a gunman who killed nine students and himself at Red Lake High School in Minnesota in 2005, is said to have listened to Mars.

http://www2.wsls.com/sls/news/local...horrorcore_music_in_farmville_slayings/48397/

 

[Nikolai]

http://www2.wsls.com/sls/news/local...horrorcore_music_in_farmville_slayings/48397/

Thats an old article and I think its natural that police would investigate that.

And I agree with you that it's possible that this music could have influenced McCroskey, I also think its possible that it didnt. People who do not listen to any violent music at all commit murders too.

So now what? I dont get the point.

 

[dangrsmind]

Okay the first pic, which is all over all of their pages is one of the pics of the girls taking their clothes off. It's the only one that wasn't as offensive so that's why I used that one, oh and look whos in part of the pic., mel and Emma's right beside her.
...and as for the bloody head, well looks real to me.
I don't have a lot of time right now but I will find that video of sicktanick soon.

That does look more real than some of the previous links. However consider this fake image:

Some more fake images:

This last one came from this link which some might find interesting/provocative regarding this discussion: http://tumeke.blogspot.com/2009/01/kids-covered-in-real-blood-are-concern.html

See also: http://joyphoto.wordpress.com/2008/10/13/the-anatomy-of-a-horror-show/


I agree that this person's MySpace stuff is disturbing, but what I don't know is if it is serious.

As far as the naked pictures, I've seen more nudity on TV in prime time than there is in that picture, but I'll accept that someone got topless/naked in subsequent images. As I have previously stated I strongly condemn the interaction with underage individuals at this event and the unprofessional (possibly illegal?) handling of an all ages show by SKR. But contributing to a murder?

 

[dangrsmind]

http://www2.wsls.com/sls/news/local...horrorcore_music_in_farmville_slayings/48397/

A rather disgusting display of self interest and self promotion from Mars. He wants to take credit for the music that led to the murder because it will make him more famous and help sell records. He wasn't otherwise involved in this case at all. Compare with the actions of those that were involved directly.

 

[dangrsmind]

Who cares, this is what extreme fans of this music do, stupid immature things. Nearly none of them will ever commit murder. All artists and music have extreme "cult" like fans that take it too seriously, like dead heads following the grateful Dead around the country while doing acid. I will agree its idiotic and most in 10 years will look back in embarrassment. Fans in death metal do this type of thing as well. Even Marilyn Manson hardcore fans do stupid things like this. This seems like it has more become the music police than about these murders.

The point is that some seek to silence valid and constitutionally protected forms of free expression that say things we don't like or in a way we find unpleasant.

Horrorcore is not the first form of music to get this treatment. And the outrage is always enhanced if the story involves music originating in the African American community and young white girls. Sadly this is not news either as it has been going on at least since the 1920s.

 

[dangrsmind]

Interesting. So establishing himself as partially responsible for, or in some way contributing to, a real-life killing would improve his status and standing in the horrorcore community and result in greater record and (presumably) concert ticket sales.

Well, he must know his audience.

I think there is no question that this sort of music appeals to people that are interested in true crime, murder, and so on. Just like people that like CSI, or Jason movies, or ...

So yeah, I imagine he does know his audience despite having pretty bad personal judgement.

 

[Nikolai]

I think there is no question that this sort of music appeals to people that are interested in true crime, murder, and so on. Just like people that like CSI, or Jason movies, or ...

So yeah, I imagine he does know his audience despite having pretty bad personal judgement.

I think the majority of the horrorcore audience is young and immature kids who are in a phase they will grow out of. When I was young, in my teens, I listened to rap music, not horrorcore, but some with violent lyrics in other ways. But I never hurt anyone, I never committed a crime, and I grew out of the phase when I got older like nearly all those people will. I dont think theyre bad people, theyre not all like Sam McCroskey, thats ridiculous.

 

[dangrsmind]

"The Psychology of Chance Encounters and Life Paths" by Albert Bandura.

http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/Bandura1982APb.pdf

See especially the bit about Paul Watkins (Manson family) , the part about teen recruitment targeting by cults, and finally the section about the "symbolic environment and information management" which needs to be reconsidered (IMO) in the context of the modern Internet.

From the conclusion, "When social ties are lacking, vulnerability is increased to fortuitous influences that offer friendship in exchange for conformity to strictly prescribed life-styles and ideologies."

If you follow this paper's reasoning, we are back to blaming the families and arguably American society as whole where we've allowed a world to emerge where we are often strangers to our neighbors and sometimes even to our own biological families. Add in the ingredient of the Internet and MySpace etc. which enables impressionable or vulnerable people to more easily connect with these sorts of groups and you've got a formula for disasters like the Heaven's Gate cult, People's Temple, and so forth.

The argument applies to the horrorcore community as well as I expect some others here will agree. And to the extent that this is a negative community which glorifies bad things such as murders we can expect bad things to result of these affiliations. But this has a lot more to do with the people involved, the degree to which the group controls ideology and life style, than with the violent content of the music they listen to. The People's Temple didn't play horrorcore or any remotely similar violent music at their services but 900 people died anyway.

To the extent these various crews enforce (intentionally or not) conformity of belief and life-style, they might be very well be dangerous. However it seems to me that largely these artists oppose this sort of thinking. It seems to me that juggalo culture is in part about being true to yourself and not conforming even to other juggalos standards of behavior. This is a theme that is repeated on various blogs, websites, and also in the music itself.

Again, I'd like to hear from an insider in the scene to more deeply understand whether these groups do in fact exert this sort of control over their audience and fans.

 

[absynthminded1]

I think the majority of the horrorcore audience is young and immature kids who are in a phase they will grow out of. When I was young, in my teens, I listened to rap music, not horrorcore, but some with violent lyrics in other ways. But I never hurt anyone, I never committed a crime, and I grew out of the phase when I got older like nearly all those people will. I dont think theyre bad people, theyre not all like Sam McCroskey, thats ridiculous.

A lot of the kids who are going to gravitate towards this are going to be the ones that are going through a rebellious phase, but I don't think we can so easily discount that at least 1/3 of these kids are emotionally troubled, do not have parents who give two squirts about what they are up to, feel disenfranchised and screwed by "the system," and are overwhelmed and confused by the madness they see in the world around them... not to mention the blatant hypocrisy of organized religion and politics.

As I have said time and time again, no singular art form or entertainment medium should be indited when a fan of said art/medium goes off of the deep end and commits some unspeakable atrocity. However, it can be argued with plenty of validity that this "Horrorcore" is toxic. If it was just music and live shows, fine, but this is a lifestyle that its followers take rather seriously, and there really doesn't seem to be any time when the curtain is down and the show is finished. Instead, it's all Horrorcore, 24/7, 365...... Desensitization at it's most extreme, folks.... At what point do the lines between fantasy and reality start to blur for some of these people?

I don't blame the music. I am not saying all horrorcore is the same or that there isn't any entertainment value in dressing up and dabbling in darker aspects of life.

There was another 60's-70's act that dressed up in dark costumes, glorified all things macabre, and kept a certain ambiguity as to whether or not they worshiped Satan. All these years later and KISS is still one of the biggest touring Rock act in the world.

Then again, they were also blamed for one or two murders in their day.....

 

[absynthminded1]

To the extent these various crews enforce (intentionally or not) conformity of belief and life-style, they might be very well be dangerous. However it seems to me that largely these artists oppose this sort of thinking. It seems to me that juggalo culture is in part about being true to yourself and not conforming even to other juggalos standards of behavior. This is a theme that is repeated on various blogs, websites, and also in the music itself.

Again, I'd like to hear from an insider in the scene to more deeply understand whether these groups do in fact exert this sort of control over their audience and fans.

You only need to look at SKR fan photos to see the pack mentality. Is it self imposed is the question. What I see is a lot of young impressionable troubled minds caving into an extreme brand of peer pressure. Each tattoo and act of self mutilation is a form of "oneupmanship" and it is CLEARLY looked upon favorably by the community and glorified by those in charge. Very much a cult mentality going on with this particular group.

 

[Nikolai]

A lot of the kids who are going to gravitate towards this are going to be the ones that are going through a rebellious phase, but I don't think we can so easily discount that at least 1/3 of these kids are emotionally troubled, do not have parents who give two squirts about what they are up to, feel disenfranchised and screwed by "the system," and are overwhelmed and confused by the madness they see in the world around them... not to mention the blatant hypocrisy of organized religion and politics.

As I have said time and time again, no singular art form or entertainment medium should be indited when a fan of said art/medium goes off of the deep end and commits some unspeakable atrocity. However, it can be argued with plenty of validity that this "Horrorcore" is toxic. If it was just music and live shows, fine, but this is a lifestyle that its followers take rather seriously, and there really doesn't seem to be any time when the curtain is down and the show is finished. Instead, it's all Horrorcore, 24/7, 365...... Desensitization at it's most extreme, folks.... At what point do the lines between fantasy and reality start to blur for some of these people?

I don't blame the music. I am not saying all horrorcore is the same or that there isn't any entertainment value in dressing up and dabbling in darker aspects of life.

There was another 60's-70's act that dressed up in dark costumes, glorified all things macabre, and kept a certain ambiguity as to whether or not they worshiped Satan. All these years later and KISS is still one of the biggest touring Rock act in the world.

Then again, they were also blamed for one or two murders in their day.....

I think the music can be toxic in a certain person who already has serious problems. I dont know if thats McCroskey or if this is some domestic crime that would have happened down the line anyways. There are a lot of inner-city murders in places like Houston, Detroit, etc. by young people who listen to gangster rap or rap with violent lyrics and you dont hear nearly the music excuse for them that this guys getting. The normal person is smart enough to know the difference between music and reality.

 

[dangrsmind]

A lot of the kids who are going to gravitate towards this are going to be the ones that are going through a rebellious phase, but I don't think we can so easily discount that at least 1/3 of these kids are emotionally troubled, do not have parents who give two squirts about what they are up to, feel disenfranchised and screwed by "the system," and are overwhelmed and confused by the madness they see in the world around them... not to mention the blatant hypocrisy of organized religion and politics.

As I have said time and time again, no singular art form or entertainment medium should be indited when a fan of said art/medium goes off of the deep end and commits some unspeakable atrocity. However, it can be argued with plenty of validity that this "Horrorcore" is toxic. If it was just music and live shows, fine, but this is a lifestyle that its followers take rather seriously, and there really doesn't seem to be any time when the curtain is down and the show is finished. Instead, it's all Horrorcore, 24/7, 365...... Desensitization at it's most extreme, folks.... At what point do the lines between fantasy and reality start to blur for some of these people?

I don't blame the music. I am not saying all horrorcore is the same or that there isn't any entertainment value in dressing up and dabbling in darker aspects of life.

There was another 60's-70's act that dressed up in dark costumes, glorified all things macabre, and kept a certain ambiguity as to whether or not they worshiped Satan. All these years later and KISS is still one of the biggest touring Rock act in the world.

Then again, they were also blamed for one or two murders in their day.....

I don't know if I agree with your percentages there but assume these are meant to be notional not exact. The real number of trully unbalanced individuals is a bit lower I expect.

Yes, that's true about KISS. A good friend of mine was a member of the "KISS Army" back in the seventies. At the time I recall the news carrying stories that questioned whether the KISS Army was just a ridiculously devoted fan base or some sort of weird future revolutionary militia/gang. Consider the makeup wearing gangs in the movie The Warriors from the same era as an idea of what they were afraid of.

Sound familiar? Thirty years later we can see that concerns over the KISS Army were entirely overblown.

Also, IMO, ICP has a much more positive message than KISS if you dig into it.

I challenge you to find me a KISS song that is equivalent to ICP's Thy Unveiling which reveals the hidden (they say "subliminal") messages in their music:

Carnival of Carnage,
The Ringmaster,
The Riddle Box,
The Great Milenko,
The Amazing Jeckel Brothers,
and The Wraith

looks like were all out of time brother!
Everybodys out of time!
F*** It, We gots to tell them
All secrets will now be told
no more hidden messengers
this is it yall
times up
everything be out right here
no need for the reverse talking
the truth.

Now we have been told this carnival s*** has touched many lives.
People have f***in` sworn to us they too can feel it inside.
What is it that draws you in, this magic that compels you?
We`ve been waiting six f***in` joker cards to finally tell you.
This messengers and hints were there, all though most never picked up on them.
We snuck em` in subliminally with that wicked s*** around them.
We mentioned more and more of this on every Joker's Card.
The bottom line always the same, you aint have to look hard.
We wickedly kick it, inflict it, you get it, get with it and dig we don't preach it flat, cause some ninjas don`t wanna get with ya, they quick to forget ya without the hatchet and gat out.
So we rose the hatchet, do or die, now Juggalos standing tall, after all 6 have risen the end of time will consume us all. It aint got nothing to do with us, It aint Psychopathic Records!
All we`re doing is pointing this s*** out to you, we in this together! Who`s behind the Dark Carnival, thet Gatherings and the hatchet? Who`s beind Dark Lotus, the circus and everybody at it?
Who inveted Juggalos and Juggalettes and f***in Faygo showers? What about that feeling you get when bumping our s***, who`s behind these Juggalo powers?
This ain`t no f***in fan club, It aint about making a buck. Don`t buy our f***in action figures *****, i dont give a f***. It aint About Violent J or Shaggy, the Butterfly or seventeen.
When we speak of Shangri-La, what you think we mean? Truth is we follow GOD, we`ve always been behind him, The Dark Carnival is GOD and may all Juggalos find him!

...

 

[dangrsmind]

I think the music can be toxic in a certain person who already has serious problems. I dont know if thats McCroskey or if this is some domestic crime that would have happened down the line anyways. There are a lot of inner-city murders in places like Houston, Detroit, etc. by young people who listen to gangster rap or rap with violent lyrics and you dont hear nearly the music excuse for them that this guys getting. The normal person is smart enough to know the difference between music and reality.

Well exactly. Because the music doesn't cause the crimes even if it is listened to by the criminals that commit them.

Demonizing black music (even if the performers are white) for negatively influencing young white girls with sexual lyrics and movements is a winning formula for stoking outrage in America every time. First it was jazz and the flappers, then rock and roll and Elvis, and now we have the horrorcore scene. The music style changes, but the story remains the same.

 

[absynthminded1]

Well exactly. Because the music doesn't cause the crimes even if it is listened to by the criminals that commit them.

Demonizing black music (even if the performers are white) for negatively influencing young white girls with sexual lyrics and movements is a winning formula for stoking outrage in America every time. First it was jazz and the flappers, then rock and roll and Elvis, and now we have the horrorcore scene. The music style changes, but the story remains the same.

Do you honestly not see that certain elements in Horrorcore (namely cliques like SKR) run a lot deeper and darker than any of the other genres you've mentioned did/do?

 

[dangrsmind]

Do you honestly not see that certain elements in Horrorcore (namely cliques like SKR) run a lot deeper and darker than any of the other genres you've mentioned did/do?

No I don't.

I remember the early days of punk when my friends would come back from shows beaten and bloodied and say they had the best time ever! At the time I thought they were crazy. I remember rocking out to the Stones Sympathy for the Devil, Black Sabbath's War Pigs, and the Crue's Shout at the Devil. But I didn't become a Satanist. I remember dozens of underground all ages punk parties in LA that always ended in huge brawls, but we were right back there the next week. I remember the fears about the KISS Army and the fear and outrage generated pretty much everywhere by the early punks.

As far as the cliques (your term), I remain open minded about this point. I'd like to hear from someone in the scene about how much control is in fact wielded. In general I think these groups are just music "crews" that produce the music and events consisting entirely of the people that organize/affiliate around the music. This is not unique to the horrorcore scene and is similar to how raves are organized.

However, I am willing to entertain the notion that more may be going on in some cases. But I don't see any evidence of that here with SKR and WIR frankly. Unless PiXy or someone else in the scene cares to correct me, I believe the so called cliques are a lot less scary than you imagine.