VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #5

[tapu]

Pudgy, with a light blue tux, talking through a muzzle* into a microphone... yeah, I hear you.


*Make that "muzzle." I had the wrong word. (Linguist FAIL!) But imagine him trying to croon with that on:

"Are you ronesome tonigh? Do you mi' me tonigh?"

He really was sounding kind of muffled in that one interview you posted.... Funny.

 

[ziggy]

Frankly I think Liz’s rant is immature and egotistical she seems to ignore, in her self-absorbed vision of her influence in their lives that it may not have been that good for these young girls with seemingly good and loving parents, to be so immersed in their SKR “loyalty”. She places herself in the do-gooder category and revels in how much she helped them through their tough s4!t, but I have to disagree that she truly helped them at all.

In the narrow-minded context that their art form is good therapy for teens (which I do not think it is or can even be proven to be), Liz befriended a couple of girls, one of which - for sure - was so young Liz had no business usurping the parental duty and beckoning with her twisted finger for Emma to come into their “family”, do drugs and hate her parents. Emma’s future was taken away and the continuing influences of SKR, imo, would not have led Emma in a positive direction for a stable and prosperous life. If Emma had problems that needed to be addressed, I don’t think Raz and crew were the best solution for dealing with them.

Her mission now is to spew this crap even more aggressively in their memory, because it’s “what those girls loved”. I submit that kind of comment is upsetting to the families of the girls, but once again Liz misses the mark in understanding the compassion she would like to claim to have because she doesn’t give a about anyone but herself.

My finger pointing is not going away based on Emma’s age and the flagrant disregard for Emma’s well-being and the selfish soul-sucking SKR pull that uses these kids to help them promote so they can “rise” (good luck with that your music sucks).

Liz sounds like a freaking high school girl who is angry because SHE knew the girls and we didn’t. She oozes stupidity in relating helping someone do hair and makeup as a true friendship and anything meaningful. What’s meaningful to her is that the girls were loyal to SKR. Selfish, parasitical, sociopathic actions directed at a 16 year old girl are still beyond pathetic in my world. If anyone should shut the ****up, it’s her.

 

[ziggy]

I wanted to add that the Google searches and the awarenss that has been brought forth regarding horrorcore and SKR does not necessarily mean that they will greatly benefit.

I can imagine that many of the searches are out of curiosity about this underground genre and then I also image when they catch of taste of the cacophonous female voice "rapping" with cheerleader girl enunciation they say to themselves..."seriously?" and that's the end of it.

I have no problem with doing what you love to do and making a living and promoting etc. but William Hung is nowhere now. He had a brief swim under the spotlight, but, lacking talent, his schtick wore off and I predict SKR is the William Hung of horrocore.

 

[Kano]

and when we say SKR will rise, we mean it, and we're taking all of you with us.
This has prolly been the biggest tragedy of the year for us

Ya think? Sorry I find Raz and Sick to be publicity 's and i dont think they care about the girls, other fans etc.... Anymore then they care about a $ sign that is.

 

[tapu]

Yeah, the line "this has probably been the biggest tragedy of the year for us" did make me pause.... Wow.

I can see what Ziggy and Kano both are saying....

 

[thesaint]

The question of what presence the horrorcore/skr/etc crew will have in court during Sam's trial(s) probably depends on whether the prosecution tries the murder of Pastor Mark separate from (and perhaps before and maybe the ONLY trial?) the other 3 cases.

If the physical evidence (dna/blood/hairs/etc) is strong enough to tie Sam to the murder weapon(s) and to Pastor Mark's body etc (and exclude others), then the only witnesses necessary might be (and not in any particular order):

1. expert forensics witness (ME) to present the physical evidence;

2. the various Farmville PD officers who witnessed Sam at the house.

3. the various CSI folks and blood-spatter experts etc

4. layman witnesses could then be limited to people who Pastor Mark interacted with in the 24 hours (or so) leading up to the crime ( to explain why the Pastor went to the house and his reason for going there). Place the victim at the crime scene to build the narrative of the crime:

Mark's mother,
Melanie's mother,
the church accountant.
??

5. and then people who would place Sam at the crime scene:

maybe Sam's sister, who could bring in testimony about Sam travelling from california to virgina

maybe people Sam talked to via phone or otherwise during the time he was at the house.

and then the series of individuals sam encounters on the way out.

From the prosecution's pov, I'd think that having any of those witnesses be horrorcore folks would not be a goal. The prosecution would look to--in Mark's trial at least--minimize the presence of the horrorcore theme in the courtroom. While the defense would
attempt to turn to the trial into a parade of horrorcore witnesses on the witness stand to insert FUD into the proceedings and hope that it messes with the jury or even 1 juror enough to get a hung jury or even something more favorable to the defense.


With regards to the murders of Debra, Emma and Melanie, I think the prosecution is likely going to have to deal with the horrorcore elements of the case (at least a few witnesses from the concert etc) and try really hard to contain and control the horrorcore influence in the courtroom--either through cherry-picking which members of the horrorcore community they'll agree to allow testify in the trial to bringing in expert witness(es) on the topic to maybe trying to exclude all horrorcore-related testimony altogether (not likely to work, cuz that's likely a huge part of the defense).

But I could maybe see a judge not allowing many or even any horrorcore related witnesses in a separate trial for Mark's murder--which opinion would be amended if the facts reveal ritualistic aspects to Mark's killing/bizarre messages around the crime scene etc.

 

[ericclimbs]

Yeah, the line "this has probably been the biggest tragedy of the year for us" did make me pause.... Wow.

I can see what Ziggy and Kano both are saying....

Yeah. . .probably. . .:waitasec:

 

[Sally Trueheart]

im hearing that a chick by the name of RAZAKEL? asked this kid SAM to kill these 2 poor girls because they slept with sicktanick after some concert they just had, anyone heard of this? supposedly Razakel is also a rapper that dates sickfaggot and is on SKR...and raps about the same stuff MAYBE worse then her counterpart sicktanick

http://sammccrosky.blogspot.com/2009/09/sam-mccrosky-aka-syko-sam-aka-lil-demon.html

I think this is where that rumor originated. I wonder if it was created by the cops to try to generate some buzz out of SKR. The wording is odd.

 

[tapu]

wow, where you been?

 

[claudicici]

....anyone notice Paximus and Andres are both on time out?

 

[ziggy]

Hi Saint - the way I see it if there is a plea bargain it will be for all and the same with a trial. For the sake of cost alone I can't see the murder of Mark being tried separately but AE can weigh in on that.

Prosection wise, it depends on what can be brought out from the SKR folks about what went down at the festival. I would think they would want to show a couple of things; that Sam was angry with Emma and perhaps Mel too and that he immersed himself in the horror of murder and mayhem and while the music may not insight everyone to commit crimes, Sam took it to heart and fantasized about his murder spree and happened upon the perfect victims for what they had done to him and fueled by the concert, he began to act out his fantasy. His anger will relate to motive along with his desires to act out his music or perhaps be an idol in the underground for what he'd done. If any of them were awake upon attackek - heat of passion won't mitigate for Sam because just finding a text on a girl's phone you are "hooked up" with nor any of the dissing from the girls is going to cut it for adequate provocation. If he waited for them to go to sleep it satisfies a cooling off period which wipes out any heat of passion argument. He's got nuttin.

I'm amused that Raz tries to put rumors to rest. No doubt she says "prolly" because she also lost her Dad, God rest his soul as I'm sure she did everything while he was alive to disappoint and worry him. Then again, I don't know but what he was the reason she went sideways...family secrets can be a real *****.

No, the music (if you can call it that) is not a direct cause of the murder of Emma, Mel, Debra and Mark. We can't blame horrorcore but there ARE people behind the music who develop personal relationships with underage kids and poison them against their parents and into their lair of depravation. The law does provide for punishment when adults contribute to the delinquency of minors and from what I've seen, they have some culpability here even if it is trivial in respect to murder, it still pisses me off.

Perhaps I'll start a "perverted justice" type effort and infiltrate the underground scene and find out how young you'd have to be before any of these depraved a-holes would turn your attention away. Anyone want to place a bet before we begin????
Would they encourage attendance to their festivals, drinking, drugs...would they condone a relaltionship between a 14 year old girl and a 20 year old guy? Where would they ever draw the line in their "love" for their fans?

 

[ziggy]

....anyone notice paximus and andres are both on time out?

what???? What happened?

I just figured they were too full of turkey still.

 

[thesaint]

Hi Saint - the way I see it if there is a plea bargain it will be for all and the same with a trial. For the sake of cost alone I can't see the murder of Mark being tried separately but AE can weigh in on that.

Hey Z,

Ah, yeah, 1 trial is defintely less costly (in financial terms as well as the burden on families and friends of the victims) than 2 or more. However, if they take Mark's case first, get a guilty verdict plus max sentence, then the cost could be lower, as it's likely the other 3 cases could|would be pled out.

one reason not to go for the grand slam and prosecute all 4 cases at once is that having separate trials gives the prosecution 2 chances at securing a max guilty verdict.

Maybe they try Debra, Emma and Melanie's murders first as one trial and if, for some reason, the jury returns a hung verdict or something less than a 1st degree murder conviction, they don't necessarily have to repeat that trial ( in the case of a hung jury) or go away having secured a lesser verdict or something worse. They can proceed to try Sam for Mark's murder alone and that seems to have less potential to be a courtroom circus.

But I think that if the physical evidence is very solid against Sam for Mark's murder, the prosecution could proceed with Mark's trial first and make it easier for the jury and witnesses who are relatives of the victims.

A potential roadblock to prosecuting Sam for Mark's murders prior to prosecuting the other 3 is that the rules of evidence might not let in very much information about the deaths of Emma, Melanie and Debra.

It seems intuitive and practical from our POV to make the whole thing one trial with one narrative, but I think the prosecution might find themselves having an easier time if they separate Mark's trial.

All 4 cases at once with a huge parade of witnesses and evidence for the jury to consider and then you throw in some out to monkey-wrench the proceedings horrorcore witnesses on the stand...all it takes is one juror to decide they can't comprehend it all and decide they have reasonable doubt. And then a hung jury means doing it all again. Although at that point the judge might force them to have separate trials for the retrial(s).

Mark's trial could be fairly simple if the physical evidence is there AND there is no distracting physical evidence. I hope/assume the ME and CSI types catalogue and track down every stray piece of DNA they found at the scene. All the defense needs is for some other, unidentified DNA at the scene and they can claim that maybe it was this other DNA's owner who did the killings--especially for the first 3 murders.

 

[thesaint]

what???? What happened?

I just figured they were too full of turkey still.

What's time out?

Hope AE's around as the case proceeds through the pre-trial and trial phases.

AE might be able to give more insight into whether the prosecution could proceed with Mark's trial first--esp w/r/t to evidentiary concerns relating to referencing the other 3 victims in the case of a Mark first trial.

IANAL , but I believe judges can allow some testimony in about those prior acts as long as she or he instructs the jury about the lack of a conviction for those prior acts at that point.

 

[tapu]

Time out is where you have to go sit in the chair one minute for however many years old you are and then you have to say you're sorry and then you can play again.


(I wonder how many people will thank the tapu for this useful post.)

 

[annmarie62]

Frankly I think Liz’s rant is immature and egotistical she seems to ignore, in her self-absorbed vision of her influence in their lives that it may not have been that good for these young girls with seemingly good and loving parents, to be so immersed in their SKR “loyalty”. She places herself in the do-gooder category and revels in how much she helped them through their tough s4!t, but I have to disagree that she truly helped them at all.

In the narrow-minded context that their art form is good therapy for teens (which I do not think it is or can even be proven to be), Liz befriended a couple of girls, one of which - for sure - was so young Liz had no business usurping the parental duty and beckoning with her twisted finger for Emma to come into their “family”, do drugs and hate her parents. Emma’s future was taken away and the continuing influences of SKR, imo, would not have led Emma in a positive direction for a stable and prosperous life. If Emma had problems that needed to be addressed, I don’t think Raz and crew were the best solution for dealing with them.

Her mission now is to spew this crap even more aggressively in their memory, because it’s “what those girls loved”. I submit that kind of comment is upsetting to the families of the girls, but once again Liz misses the mark in understanding the compassion she would like to claim to have because she doesn’t give a about anyone but herself.

My finger pointing is not going away based on Emma’s age and the flagrant disregard for Emma’s well-being and the selfish soul-sucking SKR pull that uses these kids to help them promote so they can “rise” (good luck with that your music sucks).

Liz sounds like a freaking high school girl who is angry because SHE knew the girls and we didn’t. She oozes stupidity in relating helping someone do hair and makeup as a true friendship and anything meaningful. What’s meaningful to her is that the girls were loyal to SKR. Selfish, parasitical, sociopathic actions directed at a 16 year old girl are still beyond pathetic in my world. If anyone should shut the ****up, it’s her.

ITA!! I don't for the life of me know why some people think "Raz" is interesting/concerned/insightful or in any way deserving of respect. She DOES come across as immature and highly egocentric, which (imo) is putting it mildly. She is insulated- and, apparently, worshipped!! - within this pathetic SKR world and she is used to having her azz kissed because of her association with its "ruler".... uh... what's his name again? (seriously can't remember, sue me)-- imo, she is on a power trip to end all power trips and all of her 'underlings' are too retarded to point out that their "empress" is naked. If she truly had insight, she would be able to recognize that, some time down the road, her reign will end and she will be "persona non grata" within her own little culty circle of no-talent losers. If nothing else, someone may come along who is younger... sexier... and may actually be able to sing!!:twocents:

 

[AndresEscobar]

what???? What happened?

I just figured they were too full of turkey still.

PAX and I were involved in a meltdown in another thread. I'm not sure exactly why we were put in time out, but the gist is this: in the Alyssa Bustamante thread, one of the posters found a video made by a 16 year old girl on youtube basically asking people to stop attacking AB because she was mentally ill.

One of the posters in this forum basically said that this was a "tribute" video to AB, and encouraged the posters in that thread to flame and report the video. Apparently no one watched the video, because it wasn't a tribute at all.

Pax and I said this sixteen year old girl had every right to post the video and that adults on WS shouldn't be attacking a 16 year old girl via youtube, especially since she seems to have mental problems. There was some discussion about the first amendment and how the constitution should be re-written to make this illegal, lots of yelling, and lots of personal attacks about my career choice to be a defense attorney.

I was in touch with a mod throughout all of this and what I'm guessing happened is because the discussion got a bit out of hand, the mod just put us all on time out. I have not received a reason, though, but what I'm guessing is I'm not supposed to respond to personal attacks and just report it. Which is what I'll do from now on. I obviously respect the mod, as it was a bad situation and she made a good decision to just cut it down, but I missed being able to post here.

ETA: also, my tone is blunt, direct and doesn't translate to the internet well.

 

[tapu]

well, that's okay, honey, because we love you

plus, i'd like to point out that "time out" is just what tapu said it was

 

[AndresEscobar]

thesaint-

Honestly, I can't imagine a scenario where this trial gets split. The main reason is that Sam is charged with the premeditated murder of two different people during a certain time period (5 years?).

This is why he has 6 charges against him for 4 murders. This tricky little statutory scheme basically consolidates mass murders into one trial.

 

[dangrsmind]

Sam's attorney has previously avoided pointless trials. Unless there is some evidence we don't know about or some sort of forensic chain of custody screw up, I can't imagine he thinks he can win this.