VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[Donjeta]

In her book, Hynde writes: “If I’m walking around in my underwear and I’m drunk? Who else’s fault can it be? If I’m walking around and I’m very modestly dressed and I’m keeping to myself and someone attacks me, then I’d say that’s his fault. But if I’m being very lairy and putting it about and being provocative, then you are enticing someone who’s already unhinged – don’t do that. Come on! That’s just common sense. You know, if you don’t want to entice a rapist, don’t wear high heels so you can’t run from him.”

I think it's not uncommon to blame yourself but really there are plenty of people who are perfectly able to see a drunk person in their underwear and wearing high heels, unable to run.. . and manage not to rape them. I've seen some naked people, and didn't hurt a hair on their head... So why wouldn't it be the rapist's fault that he or she gets rapey instincts?

Just because there is an opportunity to steal doesn't mean that you have to. Just because there is an opportunity to rape (and there always are...) doesn't mean that anyone is forced to. Being modestly dressed and wearing sensible shoes does not offer much protection from rape although being very drunk probably increases the risk of getting victimized. But you can be intoxicated to the point of passing out and be fine in the morning unless there's a rapist present.

Who else's fault can it be? If you raped yourself then it was your fault. If you were raped by a rapist, it was the rapist's fault.

 

[Donjeta]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...hy-I-became-one-and-started-raping-women.html

Why I became a sex offender and started raping women

When it comes to rape, much of the focus is still on the victim’s behaviour - but what we should be asking is, why do sex offenders do it? A convicted rapist tells his story

In 2001, I raped my girlfriend. We’d been arguing and she’d left the house for a while and when she came back… I was very drunk. I forced her into the bedroom. I didn’t plan it. I still don’t completely understand why I did it. But I have a better sense of what triggers this behaviour in me now. I was under a lot of financial stress at the time. I wasn’t feeling good about myself. And I was drinking too much, which didn’t help. Now, I try not to drink at all.

I wasn’t shocked that I’d raped my girlfriend. I’d done it already in my past. I did feel bad, but more about the fact that I’d been physically rough with her than about the rape. It wasn’t until I’d spent about a year in prison that I started to understand how much I’d hurt her. Not just physically - really hurt her. Knowing that is going to affect me for the rest of my life.

While I was in therapy in prison, I talked for the first time about what happened to me in my childhood. I was sexually abused for about two years, from when I was seven. I was abused by people who were friends of my family, a man and a woman, and I suspect that my family might have been aware of that.

And I do think it played a part in my later offending. Because I felt powerless for a long time after that, and my offending was always more about power and control than anything else. But that’s just me. That’s just one person. Other men I met in prison had very different stories.

A lot of people were in denial, not taking responsibility for their actions. Some people would say the woman had led them on, things like that. It’s easy to say it was her fault. But I realised the problem was me. It’s me. It’s not other people around me. The problem is me.

 

[bluesneakers]

Signs like that should immediately tell the females that they do not want to party in that dorm ever. Lol

Atleast the smart ones will know that the guys there are a bunch of pervs. Lol. Jmo.

YES. They're huge warning signs.

I think on welcome new freshmen day (or whatever it's called) everyone should be given a Frat Fact Sheet they have to read and sign. Not promising you'll never party with frat boys or at a frat, but just to ensure you are aware of the dangers. And maybe "Frats" can be alternated with "Athletes" depending on the school's history wrt athletes and sexual assault.

 

[katydid23]

Rape is about power and control. Rapists often deliberately target someone who is vulnerable, sometimes even aiding in producing such a vulnerability. They are predators, pure and simple. They come in all shapes, sizes, and genders.

Drunk consensual sex is not the same thing as rape. Drunk consensual sex later regretted by one of the participants is not the same thing as rape. A rape victim and a rapist should not be held to the same standard as one another because only one chose to victimize another. Being drunk should never mean that rape is an inevitable consequence no more than wearing mini skirts or walking home alone at night. Being drunk should never mean that anyone is obligated to have sex because they were drunk or made other mistakes, like asking their perpetrator to buy condoms or sending naked pictures of oneself. Being drunk is not an invitation to be victimized. Being sexually aggressive is not an invitation to be victimized either. And being drunk or wearing something provocative should never automatically discount sexual assault because the victim doesn't meet our ideal of what a victim should be or how he/she should have conducted themselves.

"Drunk consensual sex is not the same thing as rape. Drunk consensual sex later regretted by one of the participants is not the same thing as rape"

That^^ is where I am confused. I thought, from what I have been reading, that drunk consensual sex WAS rape because a drunk female cannot legally consent:



"in most states, incapacitated people are unable to consent to sex, whether because they’ve drunk alcohol (even, in many states, if they’ve done so knowingly and voluntarily), taken prescription or illegal drugs, or are developmentally disabled. "


"Despite years of rape law reform, many people still imagine rape as a crime involving literal force, rather than lack of legal consent."

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/maryville


From everything I am seeing on University websites, being drunk means a lack of legal consent which means rape. And boys are being held responsible and threatened that they will be charged with rape if they have sex with a drunk girl, even if she willingly agrees.

Is that incorrect?

 

[bluesneakers]

Vanderbilt was a gang rape with an already unconscious female. And Bill drugged his dates without them knowing.

It's been two years now, I think, since the young woman was raped at Vanderbilt? She still hasn't gotten justice even though Vandenburg and Batey* were found guilty months ago. The other two alleged rapists are at other schools playing football.

I don't think the young men were in frat though, I think it was a dorm just for the football team.

*His interview with Dr. Phil turned my stomach. In one breath he says Vandenburg knew it was okay to bring an unconscious woman back to the dorm because he ran with a different group of people, then in the next breath Vandenburg is a good kid who got caught up in some unfortunate circumstances.

 

[katydid23]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...hy-I-became-one-and-started-raping-women.html

Why I became a sex offender and started raping women

When it comes to rape, much of the focus is still on the victim’s behaviour - but what we should be asking is, why do sex offenders do it? A convicted rapist tells his story

Interesting that one of the sex offenders was a woman assaulting a young male.

 

[Donjeta]

"Drunk consensual sex is not the same thing as rape. Drunk consensual sex later regretted by one of the participants is not the same thing as rape"

That^^ is where I am confused. I thought, from what I have been reading, that drunk consensual sex WAS rape because a drunk female cannot legally consent:



"in most states, incapacitated people are unable to consent to sex, whether because they’ve drunk alcohol (even, in many states, if they’ve done so knowingly and voluntarily), taken prescription or illegal drugs, or are developmentally disabled. "


"Despite years of rape law reform, many people still imagine rape as a crime involving literal force, rather than lack of legal consent."

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/maryville


From everything I am seeing on University websites, being drunk means a lack of legal consent which means rape. And boys are being held responsible and threatened that they will be charged with rape if they have sex with a drunk girl, even if she willingly agrees.

Is that incorrect?

JMO there are different degrees of drunk, and some drunk people are still able to consent while some aren't.

 

[BritsKate]

"Drunk consensual sex is not the same thing as rape. Drunk consensual sex later regretted by one of the participants is not the same thing as rape"

That^^ is where I am confused. I thought, from what I have been reading, that drunk consensual sex WAS rape because a drunk female cannot legally consent:



"in most states, incapacitated people are unable to consent to sex, whether because they’ve drunk alcohol (even, in many states, if they’ve done so knowingly and voluntarily), taken prescription or illegal drugs, or are developmentally disabled. "


"Despite years of rape law reform, many people still imagine rape as a crime involving literal force, rather than lack of legal consent."

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/maryville


From everything I am seeing on University websites, being drunk means a lack of legal consent which means rape. And boys are being held responsible and threatened that they will be charged with rape if they have sex with a drunk girl, even if she willingly agrees.

Is that incorrect?

Being incapacitated, not simply being drunk. I think there's a difference. A person can willingly consume a couple of beers, be inebriated, but totally aware of what's going on around them. Being falling down drunk is totally different.

This really isn't confusing. If anyone, man or woman, is so wasted that they they're unable to answer simple questions, unable of walking without aid, unable to seemingly grasp what is happening around them - you shouldn't have sex with them on the basis you may be arrested for rape. I think it's pretty simple.

By the way, one of the reasons for such a tough stance on alcohol is that it is used widely on campus as a date rape drug. 89% of sexual assaults occur when the victim is incapacitated by alcohol.

You're looking at it though the lens drunk girl regrets consensual sex and screams rape - innocent man falsely accused. I'm looking at it through the lens of drunk girl so messed up she barely knew what was happening and was in no position to consent with a guy who takes advantage of that, as many whom are rapists would.

 

[katydid23]

Being incapacitated, not simply being drunk. I think there's a difference. A person can willingly consume a couple of beers, be inebriated, but totally aware of what's going on around them. Being falling down drunk is totally different.

This really isn't confusing. If anyone, man or woman, is so wasted that they they're unable to answer simple questions, unable of walking without aid, unable to seemingly grasp what is happening around them - you shouldn't have sex with them on the basis you may be arrested for rape. I think it's pretty simple.

By the way, one of the reasons for such a tough stance on alcohol is that it is used widely on campus as a date rape drug. 89% of sexual assaults occur when the victim is incapacitated by alcohol.

You're looking at it though the lens drunk girl regrets consensual sex and screams rape - innocent man falsely accused. I'm looking at it through the lens of drunk girl so messed up she barely knew what was happening and was in no position to consent with a guy who takes advantage of that, as many whom are rapists would.

Right. But the problem is that those situations are not always as simple as a predator purposely getting a girl drunk. I know it does happen and happens way too much. Which is why parents need to teach their girls to be aware of that type of ploy. My daughter and her friends stuck together at parties They never accepted drinks from guys they didnt know well. They never let one of the girls go off alone with a guy she just met. They looked out for each other.

here is the part I take issue with:


"This really isn't confusing. If anyone, man or woman, is so wasted that they they're unable to answer simple questions, unable of walking without aid, unable to seemingly grasp what is happening around them - you shouldn't have sex with them on the basis you may be arrested for rape. I think it's pretty simple."

I don't think it is that simple. For you and I, as mature adults, yes. But college kids go out on a 'date' and they party together. Which often involves pot, beer pong, a few shots. And TOGETHER they get progressively more inebriated. After a few hours they go back to one of their rooms, TOGETHER, both high. And they may BOTH agree to have consensual sex. They may both be pretty drunk by that time.

UNder the above ^^^ scenario, the male would be subject to expulsion, loss of school credits, if the female complained, even years later. And with no proof, just her word. The female would not be subject to any penalties, oddly enough.

I agree that the males should not go to bed with a female that is drunk. But if he has been drinking along with her, then he is drunk too. Why is he held responsible for poor decisions, like having consensual sex, when he is drunk, but females are not?

 

[Firefliezz21]

RIGHT. But how is it fair for a student to wait two years, until a male students senior year, and then go to the office and say she revoked her consent. This is not like a rapist that jumped out of the stairwell and grabbed her. This is a male she consented to have sex with. And then two years later she goes to the office and said, YES, I did consent, but then I revoked consent and he did not stop.

SERIOUSLY? We have to automatically believe that story she is now telling? And he is expelled, 4 years of study and tuition, down the drain. Because 2 yrs later she comes forth and says he ignored her when she revoked consent?

I have a real problem with that.

I agree it isn't fair but if it is a private school it probably can have whatever disciplinary policies it wants.

I think a far more serious problem is any college student drinking to the point of blacking out and having no memory.

 

[Donjeta]

Well but if he never complained and filed a report that he was raped, he can't expect the woman to be arrested or expelled for what happened, can he? And we can't know that the woman would not have been held accountable for her actions if he had.

It doesn't sound fair to have people expelled from school for unsubstantiated allegations but if they're all adults and know the rules beforehand they might choose to act accordingly and try to initiate sex acts in less intoxicated state.

 

[LinasK]

Can we all just agree that the signs were predatorial in nature and should not be condoned on campuses. Especially when our kids are going there for higher education and not to party.

This is why the country is jacked up. Because you have young adults focusing on staying teens when they need to focus on bigger things such as their future. Jmo

BBM. Agreed! I stated earlier that had I seen those signs, I would have serious second thoughts about letting my daughter attend that school. They are absolutely predatory-no joke there. That's not mutual hook-up mentality, it's prey, fresh meat.

 

[LinasK]

I agree in part but I think the entire point of the signs isn't that they are predatory. I think they are college kids testing their rights of freedom of expression and free speech.

When their frat gets shut down for it, they'll find out just how far their rights of freedom of expression/free speech go. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater either. And I DO think those signs are predatory!!!

 

[Firefliezz21]

When their frat gets shut down for it, they'll find out just how far their rights of freedom of expression/free speech go. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater either. And I DO think those signs are predatory!!!

I thought it was a private residence but even if it is a frat I doubt it will get shut down just because of signs.

 

[LinasK]

True. But I was sexually abused by my uncle from age 7 to 9, so I had a lot of issues with promiscuity and drugs as a teen.

For similar reasons, I did too in college, but I wasn't drunk, nor did I do drugs.

 

[LinasK]

Yes, I would feel the same way. Two years after the fact? Yes.

Yeah, I was gonna thank another post that mentioned the two years after the fact, when I suddenly remembered- it takes sexual assault victims many years to deal with it and report it. I never told on my uncle because I knew my own family wouldn't believe me, and some still don't as of this day...

 

[LinasK]

Rape doesn't become not-rape through the passage of time. A statute of limitations may make prosecution impossible, but the rape didn't cease to have existed.

:clap::clap::clap::goodpost:Excellent post! Thank you for stating that.

 

[LinasK]

Rape is about power and control. Rapists often deliberately target someone who is vulnerable, sometimes even aiding in producing such a vulnerability. They are predators, pure and simple. They come in all shapes, sizes, and genders.

Drunk consensual sex is not the same thing as rape. Drunk consensual sex later regretted by one of the participants is not the same thing as rape. A rape victim and a rapist should not be held to the same standard as one another because only one chose to victimize another. Being drunk should never mean that rape is an inevitable consequence no more than wearing mini skirts or walking home alone at night. Being drunk should never mean that anyone is obligated to have sex because they were drunk or made other mistakes, like asking their perpetrator to buy condoms or sending naked pictures of oneself. Being drunk is not an invitation to be victimized. Being sexually aggressive is not an invitation to be victimized either. And being drunk or wearing something provocative should never automatically discount sexual assault because the victim doesn't meet our ideal of what a victim should be or how he/she should have conducted themselves.

Another excellent post!!!:clap::clap::clap::goodpost:

 

[Donjeta]

Maybe not shut down but the fraternity did get suspended by the national organization, pending an investigation:

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/25/us/virginia-old-dominion-university-sigma-nu-offensive-banners/

 

[LinasK]

I thought it was a private residence but even if it is a frat I doubt it will get shut down just because of signs.

In the OP, IIRC this frat was being investigated...