VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[MamaJoJo]

I still don't get how, if two adults are fooling around (each equally aroused, each equally into what's happening) and one person decides that things have gone far enough (maybe just shirts are off at this point, maybe everything is off and everything has been touched) that there is EVER a justifiable reason for the other person to continue or to take what hasn't been offered.

As I have said before...fooling around is fun. Why buy the cow if you can have the milk for free? Everyone has the right to fool around, to tease, to entice, to save something for the (possible) next time. It's absurd to think of living in a world where once you kiss a guy you have to have sex with him? Or, once he's been brought to that point of excitement that the woman should be careful for what she's "asked" for. Absolutely absurd.

We all have stories of passionate hours of doing everything but intercourse, whether married or not, whether on your 50th date or your first. For me, those times are some of my best sensual memories. It'd be a bummer if we always rushed to the end. The art of the tease, my friends. I hope it remains alive and well, in college and out.

 

[katydid23]

Oh my---I rest my case:


http://www.scribd.com/doc/262956362/Nungesser-Filed-Complaint


That ^^^^ is EXACTLY what I have been trying to explain.

For background or backstory, please see:

http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/09/emma-sulkowicz-campus-sexual-assault-activism.html


PLEASE, read the above article on RAPE CULTURE, and one of the most talked about current cases , the 'mattress girl', held up as the celebrated victim.

And then read the defendants evidence, linked above and/or below:

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/t...-facebook-messages-will-leave-you-speechless/

 

[katydid23]

I still don't get how, if two adults are fooling around (each equally aroused, each equally into what's happening) and one person decides that things have gone far enough (maybe just shirts are off at this point, maybe everything is off and everything has been touched) that there is EVER a justifiable reason for the other person to continue or to take what hasn't been offered.

As I have said before...fooling around is fun. Why buy the cow if you can have the milk for free? Everyone has the right to fool around, to tease, to entice, to save something for the (possible) next time. It's absurd to think of living in a world where once you kiss a guy you have to have sex with him? Or, once he's been brought to that point of excitement that the woman should be careful for what she's "asked" for. Absolutely absurd.

We all have stories of passionate hours of doing everything but intercourse, whether married or not, whether on your 50th date or your first. For me, those times are some of my best sensual memories. It'd be a bummer if we always rushed to the end. The art of the tease, my friends. I hope it remains alive and well, in college and out.

I am not saying that any one should continue if the other person says no. I am saying that there are many incidents in which it is not that cut and dry, not that clear, or well clarified. And many times it ends up ruining peoples lives. JMO

 

[Montjoy]

PLEASE, read the above article on RAPE CULTURE, and one of the most talked about current cases , the 'mattress girl', held up as the celebrated victim.

I don't see what possible value there is in using a case as bizarre as the 'mattress girl' to make a point about anything other than her own mental illness.

 

[flourish]

Oh my---I rest my case:


http://www.scribd.com/doc/262956362/Nungesser-Filed-Complaint


That ^^^^ is EXACTLY what I have been trying to explain.

For background or backstory, please see:

http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/09/emma-sulkowicz-campus-sexual-assault-activism.html


PLEASE, read the above article on RAPE CULTURE, and one of the most talked about current cases , the 'mattress girl', held up as the celebrated victim.

And then read the defendants evidence, linked above and/or below:

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/t...-facebook-messages-will-leave-you-speechless/

I've read all about the mattress girl. I think that is quite an absurd situation and I can't believe the school has allowed her to act like she has.

You offer an exception nobody has denied exists. There are threads and threads about the rule.


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[MamaJoJo]

I am not saying that any one should continue if the other person says no. I am saying that there are many incidents in which it is not that cut and dry, not that clear, or well clarified. And many times it ends up ruining peoples lives. JMO

It's usually pretty clear cut for the person who feels they were raped, whether the raper accepts it or not. There just simply is a difference.

Yes, lives can be ruined if false accusations are made. And the person who is making such claims should be held accountable. But rape is rape to me, no matter the circumstance. My eyes don't see grey on this. At all.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

In my opinion there are two sides to every situation. What you are describing is the 'rape culture' as defined in a way that puts it all 100% on the men. It is all frat boys and the evil school officials and the crooked cops that conspire to rape all of these innocent young girls.

But I worked in a high school for many years. Girls can be just as predatory, just as sexually aggressive. You cannot believe some of the intense and lewd comments, messages, texts and pictures that girls send to boys.

I think this thread needs a little balance. WHY are all these girls going to frat parties if it is just about rapists up in there? They go because they want to meet boyfriends, lovers, new guys to date. So there is a lot of sexual flirtation, promises, perhaps even some teasing going on. These things do not happen in a vacuum.

So I think we SHOULD talk about girls drinking too much and fondling boy's penises. Because that is all a part of this big mess. And girls need to understand their part in the equation too, imo.

In the 1970's when I was only 15 years old I had a job as a dishwasher at coffee shop. I was the only male who worked there. The owner was a woman. The cooks where women. The waitress's where women.

I was subjected to a bunch of sexual talk by the young 20 something women who worked there. It really freaked me out because I was just a kid. I didn't know how to respond to the sexual situations they brought up.

That showed me at a young age that females can be sexually aggressive.

It's not only males who can dominate and direct sexual encounters. JMO

 

[al66pine]

Not a perfect analogy, maybe not a good analogy. Perhaps a mediocre analogy, or just fleeting thoughts.

If owner of [$100,000 piece of diamond jewelry, $100,000 classic masterpiece oil, $100,000 bar of gold bullion, $100,000 stack of currency, etc.] puts that item on a silver platter at the end of their home's driveway and takes no actions to secure it, would we say--

'We/society/govt need to 'educate ppl not to take/steal items in driveways without explicit, specific permission?'
or
'We/society/govt need to educate ppl not to leave their cherished, treasured items available & vulnerable to random ppl walking/driving past driveway who may take without explicit, specific permission?'

IDK.
Getting ready to duck tomato-missiles headed in my direction.

 

[Montjoy]

Yeah, I don't see that analogy as working because, fundamentally, I don't see 'having sex' as being analogous to 'theft', and that's what the analogy hinges on.

 

[katydid23]

It's usually pretty clear cut for the person who feels they were raped, whether the raper accepts it or not. There just simply is a difference.

Yes, lives can be ruined if false accusations are made. And the person who is making such claims should be held accountable. But rape is rape to me, no matter the circumstance. My eyes don't see grey on this. At all.

My point is that it is not always that clear cut for the person if they were or were not raped. Sometimes they might have vague memories because of drug or alcohol use. They might not be 'clear' about if it was rape or not because they might not be sure how well they communicated their refusal. Also, I have known several situations where the person did not feel they were raped and others told them they most likely were rape victims, when using California's consent law. So I don't think it is always that black and white. JMO

 

[flourish]

People are not priceable, IMO, so big difference. If a $100,000 piece of jewelry is stolen, there's insurance and jewelry stores. Vaginas and bodily security just isn't comparable, so I can't even entertain the idea..


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[flourish]

My point is that it is not always that clear cut for the person if they were or were not raped. Sometimes they might have vague memories because of drug or alcohol use. They might not be 'clear' about if it was rape or not because they might not be sure how well they communicated their refusal. Also, I have known several situations where the person did not feel they were raped and others told them they most likely were rape victims, when using California's consent law. So I don't think it is always that black and white. JMO

I'm wondering how many of these people who had to have it explained that they had been raped had developmental disabilities or other cognitive issues. Just because someone doesn't understand they've been victimized doesn't mean they weren't.




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[katydid23]

I don't see what possible value there is in using a case as bizarre as the 'mattress girl' to make a point about anything other than her own mental illness.

The mattress girl has been held up by various organizations as a prime example of a rape victim who was done wrong by the Columbia University. She has continued to carry that mattress 'in protest' and has made the real victim in this case miserable.
They have 'collective carries' across the campus in honor of her accusations. Although they are FALSE accusations.


http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/09/emma-sulkowicz-campus-sexual-assault-activism.html
". The mattress protest is a way for Sulkowicz to both refuse him that anonymity and turn the situation on its head. She’ll take the punishment, it says. This is a heavy mattress—an extra-long twin covered with shiny blue bedbug-proof material, bought from a clearinghouse called Tall Paul’s Tall Mall, which stocks the same mattresses Columbia orders for its dorms for growing boys. For now, she’s not using any hooks or belt loops to carry it—only her hands, or other students’ hands (her friends call those “collective carries&#8221. It’s a weight Columbia can lift together. “For the record, the best arrangement is four people carrying the mattress, because they each take a corner,” says Sulkowicz, smiling. “Then it’s really light.”


Sulkowicz’s mattress project is powerful, indelible; as Hillary Clinton said last week, “That image should haunt all of us.” But it is also maybe a little youthful. This is the ethical purview of college students. Strict attention not only to learning and knowledge but also to morality, to right and wrong, when to stand up and when to stay silent, is a large part of why American colleges exist.

“One cannot help but feel terrible about this,” Columbia president Lee Bollinger says about Sulkowicz and her mattress in his first interview on the subject. “This is a person who is one of my students, and I care about all of my students. And when one of them feels that she has been a victim of mistreatment, I am affected by that. This is all very painful.” Bollinger says that he has spent “as much time on this issue”—meaning sexual assault on campus—“as any issue” over the past year, which includes *Columbia’s largest expansion in nearly a century, a $6.3 billion, 17-acre satellite campus in West Harlem. In August, he created a new sexual-assault policy, taking a much harder line. Students are now required to have “unambiguous communication and mutual agreement”—that’s verbal consent—before sexual acts, or risk *consequences. Though an improvement, this hasn’t been enough to quell unrest.

 

[flourish]

I still don't get how, if two adults are fooling around (each equally aroused, each equally into what's happening) and one person decides that things have gone far enough (maybe just shirts are off at this point, maybe everything is off and everything has been touched) that there is EVER a justifiable reason for the other person to continue or to take what hasn't been offered.

As I have said before...fooling around is fun. Why buy the cow if you can have the milk for free? Everyone has the right to fool around, to tease, to entice, to save something for the (possible) next time. It's absurd to think of living in a world where once you kiss a guy you have to have sex with him? Or, once he's been brought to that point of excitement that the woman should be careful for what she's "asked" for. Absolutely absurd.

We all have stories of passionate hours of doing everything but intercourse, whether married or not, whether on your 50th date or your first. For me, those times are some of my best sensual memories. It'd be a bummer if we always rushed to the end. The art of the tease, my friends. I hope it remains alive and well, in college and out.

I'm not usually one to quote for the sake of thanking, but dang! Yes!


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[katydid23]

I've read all about the mattress girl. I think that is quite an absurd situation and I can't believe the school has allowed her to act like she has.

You offer an exception nobody has denied exists. There are threads and threads about the rule.


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And WHY has the University allowed her to act the way she has? Why has the accused student's college life been ruined while she has become a mini-celebrity and performance artist, who other students stand behind? I think that is a very pertinent question.

 

[katydid23]

I'm wondering how many of these people who had to have it explained that they had been raped had developmental disabilities or other cognitive issues. Just because someone doesn't understand they've been victimized doesn't mean they weren't.




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In the cases that I am thinking of it was not because of developmental delays or cognitive issues. It was because of confusion and uncertainty and poor memory retention because of alcohol usage. Three of the incidents involved girls who discussed the previous nights experiences and tried to piece together exactly what happened. And in so doing they had to decide for themselves if they remembered giving consent or not. And their friends would say ' IF YOU DIDNT CONSENT THEN IT WAS RAPE' and they would then say, 'OH, I WAS RAPED? ....wow, I was raped last night...'

 

[katydid23]

I don't see what possible value there is in using a case as bizarre as the 'mattress girl' to make a point about anything other than her own mental illness.

Oh, and there is THIS reason to use her as an example:

Sulkowicz, who graduated Sunday, spent her senior year hauling a 50-pound mattress around campus to protest the Columbia administration’s failure to expel her alleged rapist. It would be difficult to overstate the adulation showered upon her: She won the National Organization for Women’s Susan B. Anthony Award and the Feminist Majority Foundation’s Ms. Wonder Award; she was the subject of a glowing New York Magazine profile (“she’s the type of hipster-nerd who rules the world these days“ she was invited to this year’s State of the Union as a guest of New York senator Kirsten Gillibrand; earlier this month, United Nations ambassador Samantha Power likened Sulkowicz to women fighting for their rights in Afghanistan; the “art” itself was reviewed in the New York Times. (Assessment: “Analogies to the Stations of the Cross may come to mind.&#8221

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418686/mattress-girl-perfect-icon-feminist-left-ian-tuttle

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

In the cases that I am thinking of it was not because of developmental delays or cognitive issues. It was because of confusion and uncertainty and poor memory retention because of alcohol usage. Three of the incidents involved girls who discussed the previous nights experiences and tried to piece together exactly what happened. And in so doing they had to decide for themselves if they remembered giving consent or not. And their friends would say ' IF YOU DIDNT CONSENT THEN IT WAS RAPE' and they would then say, 'OH, I WAS RAPED? ....wow, I was raped last night...'

If you don't consent or can't consent because of impairment then it's rape IMO. If a man is worried about being falsely accused of rape then he should only be intimate in a "trusting" relationship and when the woman is "sober".

What ever happened to chivalry?

 

[Donjeta]

Interesting article by a very progressive male feminist:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/sexual-assault-on-men/rape-isnt-a-gender-issue/


Rape Isn’t a gender Issue

The United States Center for Disease Control found that men are sexually assaulted at nearly the same rate as women. USAToday reports that 43% of high school and young college men reported they had an unwanted sexual experience and 95% of that number reported their assailant was a female acquaintance.

On top of all of this, there’s the issue of false rape allegations. While the statistics are all over the map, ranging from 2% reported by feminists and 40% reported by men’s rights activists (MRAs), a recent article by Dara Lind: “What we know about false Rape Allegations, ” published on Vox.com, looked at a variety of studies and found women falsely report rape approximately 5.9% of the time. Which means of the 1.270 million women who reported being sexually assaulted, approximately 74,930 of these allegations were false. If 5.9% of females allegations of sexual assault are false, then based on Lara Stemple’s paper, males are sexually assaulted in the United States more often than females.

What's the rate that males make false allegations or are confused because it's not so cut and dry whether they consented or not?

 

[katydid23]

What's the rate that males make false allegations or are confused because it's not so cut and dry whether they consented or not?

Probably the same rate as the females.