GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #3

[YidArmyRach]

Daddy pushed their head too hard into the stainless steel refrigerator could be an accidental death, too.

Just jumping off your post .........

Consuming something they shouldn't have had access to could be an accidental death, drowning in the bath when a parent wasn't supervising properly could be an accidental death, as could a child sticking something into the electric socket whilst a parent was asleep. All just examples, which don't involve direct involvement/violence from another person.

An accident can have more consequences if it occurs when a parent wasn't supervising the child - especially if there are other children in the family, whose care may become a concern for the courts.

I can remember reading stories of children who drowned in the bath when mum or dad "just went to get a towel" or "just went to answer the phone", or have died in an accident when the parent had "turned their back or a minute". How does anyone know how long the baby/child in each case was really left alone? We don't. Perhaps the only difference is the reaction - those parents called for help, whereas others in a similar position might panic and hide the child (and I mean to simply hide the body, not to make it look like a murder). As someone said, there are children who have never been found who have gone missing from their homes. Who knows if there are cases that have been caused by a parent panicking after an accident, especially if they feel their other children might be taken from them.

The Mikaeel Kumar case in Scotland involved a 3 year old being reported as missing, having let himself out of the home whilst his mum and siblings slept. His body was found some days later, discarded in a suitcase after his mother had hidden it after he had died, following her beating him (and her failing to get medical attention for him).

He was beaten for being sick, and beaten again whilst unwell. I wouldn't call it accidental, but his mother deliberately made his death - which she caused - look like an accident, in that she reported that he had left the home whilst she slept (and said he'd put his coat and shoes on), when really he had died when she'd lost her temper.

Surely that isn't very dissimilar to this case in so far as the story told regarding how the child came to be missing from the home contains the same elements - mother sleeping, child puts on coat and shoes himself and leaves the house?

 

[RohrbachJL]

Of course, accidental strangulation does happen. However, he was sexually assaulted and strangled and the cause of death was not accidental.

I'm sorry, I just happen to know a lot more on this old case and read all that was out there on the subject. He was sexually assaulted with a soda bottle, it was found. So it was thought perhaps the killer had done that after the death to make it appear that he was abducted and assaulted. Or that the stepmother wanted it to appear he had been. Anyway, this case has nothing to do with Noah's case, so I won't say anymore.

 

[Meemaw12]

Slightly off topic to current discussion but I came across a picture taken from a different angle that gives a better indication where the tank is in relation to the house up front and the road. Assuming the blue tarp is where the tank is.
View attachment 72018

Thank you for the picture, I believe that is where it is. Courtny can answer better than me though.

I notice bikes on the front porch. One looks pink, one dark. First I've seen any kinda confirmation that someone was occupying the White House.

The pink bike looks smaller to me like child size compared to the darker one.

Wonder if children lived there?

Such a beautiful area.


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[LorinMarie]

That's not accidental, it's murder. The child died in the commission of an assault.

Agreed. When I posted "accident" I think the meaning is being taken too literally by some. I agree if you assault a child and the result is death it is murder in all cases BUT my thinking is that the death of Noah was not premeditated. I feel something happened that led to death but I do not think that it started out as a plan to kill him. Any way you spin it even if you don't mean to, causing the death of another human is murder but there are different degrees to murder in the legal system based on ones intent. Premeditated vs manslaughter.

 

[Donjeta]

People hide bodies if they have something to hide. JMO.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Please forgive me but I've been gone for a couple of days and I'm trying to catch up. Has LE released any info on COD? Is there a media thread, perhaps I can catch up there......

 

[deugirtni]

If this is true about these plastic lids performing such tricks, they should be banned immediately. What a disgusting concept, seriously. It sounds archaic. Another example of inferior products being used in place of time-tested old fashioned materials. I hope these people that lost someone in that way, sued the manufacturer in every case.

At first when I was reading your post, I wondered what you meant, as it seems relatively common to me that parents try to hide a body if they kill their child, and then I realized that you only meant when the child was killed accidentally. Interesting that you haven't heard of any instances of hiding if the death was accidental.

I agree that if a parent kills a child, it is not classified as an accident... however, I believe there are times when a death can occur as a result of some other action, that wasn't intended to get that result. Here in Canada, we have a charge called 'manslaughter', which is basically causing death not on purpose. That is the type of 'accident' I think some (including myself) have been referring to. For example, say someone got angry and lashed out and pushed someone, and then the victim ended up falling down a flight of stairs that wasn't really right there, by fluke.. and got killed. Or some weird parent locked their kid in a closet in the dark and the child ended up having some kind of medical event which led to death.. something where the parents did something wrong and abusive, but yet didn't mean to cause death. Aren't *those* bodies ever hidden?

What I find fascinating is in all the years I have been here at WS I never heard of the theory that the child was killed accidentally and then the parent or parents hid the body. That seem to become a theory after the Anthony case.

Yet, when I searched during the Anthony case for any other case where it had ever happened before I found NONE. Not one case could I find showing where another parent accidentally killed their child and the child wound up discarded in a swamp or some other area. And I firmly don't believe it happened in Caylee's case either. And to this day I have never found another case showing any parent did what CA supposedly did while claiming Caylee's death was an accident. I don't expect to ever find one either because it was a lie. It was created out of thin air by defense lawyers who didn't mind telling lies to the jury they wanted to mislead.

And if a parent kills a child then it is not classified as accident. If they drugged him or if they hit him.....that is no accidental death. That is a homicide..........plain and simple.

All the parents I have seen who were responsible in their child's death immediately called 911 and fake it... saying the child had had an 'accident.' It is only when the child gets to the hospital it is shown that it was no accident at all but the child died or was seriously injured due to abuse.

I don't have any evidence that these parents ever abused Noah much less harmed him seriously enough to cause his death.

Imo they would investigate this as a criminal case until they know otherwise.

What none of us know.... because the Sheriff refuses to discuss it.... is how the lid was found when they first saw it.

And now after reading about Loic Rogers case this morning even if the lid was upright covering the septic tank it still could be a very tragic accident. That is two cases I have now read where if a child stands on the lid it will pivot like a trap door with them falling in and the lid flips back into its original place.

In the Rogers case LE didn't search the septic tank at first either because the lid was in its normal position.

But yet LE came to the determination through their own experiments that Loic's tragic death was an accident. And in the other case where a little girl fell in the septic tank that lid also rectified itself once swallowing her up. The only reason she was saved is someone saw the lid flip up and go back down.

So I am not ready to say anyone harmed Noah on purpose. I will do as the Sheriff has asked and wait for the evidence to come from his department.

I do hope they do their own experiments though just like they did in Loic's case if Noah's COD was due to drowning.

 

[deugirtni]

That is just about the worst thing I've heard. Disgusting.

I'm sorry, I just happen to know a lot more on this old case and read all that was out there on the subject. He was sexually assaulted with a soda bottle, it was found. So it was thought perhaps the killer had done that after the death to make it appear that he was abducted and assaulted. Or that the stepmother wanted it to appear he had been. Anyway, this case has nothing to do with Noah's case, so I won't say anymore.

 

[JeannaT]

Please forgive me but I've been gone for a couple of days and I'm trying to catch up. Has LE released any info on COD? Is there a media thread, perhaps I can catch up there......

No. No information at all.

 

[atm9533]

I have a problem with the lid being removed by LE at an earlier search. Can't be an accident if the lid was on. My other problem is with the mother sleeping for 2 to 3 hours with an infant. I have raised 3 daughters and babysit my grandkids and infants just don't sleep that long.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If this is true about these plastic lids performing such tricks, they should be banned immediately. What a disgusting concept, seriously. It sounds archaic. Another example of inferior products being used in place of time-tested old fashioned materials. I hope these people that lost someone in that way, sued the manufacturer in every case.

At first when I was reading your post, I wondered what you meant, as it seems relatively common to me that parents try to hide a body if they kill their child, and then I realized that you only meant when the child was killed accidentally. Interesting that you haven't heard of any instances of hiding if the death was accidental.

I agree that if a parent kills a child, it is not classified as an accident... however, I believe there are times when a death can occur as a result of some other action, that wasn't intended to get that result. Here in Canada, we have a charge called 'manslaughter', which is basically causing death not on purpose. That is the type of 'accident' I think some (including myself) have been referring to. For example, say someone got angry and lashed out and pushed someone, and then the victim ended up falling down a flight of stairs that wasn't really right there, by fluke.. and got killed. Or some weird parent locked their kid in a closet in the dark and the child ended up having some kind of medical event which led to death.. something where the parents did something wrong and abusive, but yet didn't mean to cause death. Aren't *those* bodies ever hidden?

Yes, I did word that incorrectly I suppose. Accident means accident to me (since purposeful acts aren't accidents) and I was under the false impression it meant that to others.

But still, I have not seen such a case where the COD was ruled accidental by the ME and the child's body was hidden or discarded like trash to decompose in the elements. The only time I have seen that happen is when the MOD is homicide for the child.

Since the death certificate would list the MOD as a homicide even if it later turned out to be a manslaughter or whatever I still say no child is discarded by parents when their child accidentally dies at no fault of the parent(s). Such as the child being out on a concrete patio falling and hitting their head accidentally.

Discarding little dead bodies is about the most inhumane thing I can think of and if the parents weren't at fault the first thing they would do is call 911 immediately even if their child was unresponsive.

Donjeta is right.

Originally Posted by donjeta View Post

people hide bodies if they have something to hide. Jmo.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

people hide bodies if they have something to hide. Jmo.

Bingo!

 

[Meemaw12]

@CameronOAustin: Looking unlikely to get any more new information about #NoahThomas today. At this point, new news will become limited until a break in case.


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[SeriouslySearching]

Please forgive me but I've been gone for a couple of days and I'm trying to catch up. Has LE released any info on COD? Is there a media thread, perhaps I can catch up there......

No COD or MOD. Sheriff said not to expect that information until the final autopsy results are in which means after the tox reports (7-8 weeks). No media thread that I am aware of at this point either.

 

[ANonyMs]

Regional newspaper
http://www.southwesttimes.com/2015/03/davis-autopsy-results-not-complete/

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, I understand. I can't say whether I agree or disagree since I haven't looked into those kind of statistics, but you could very well be correct. And yes, accident means accident, probably to everyone.. however sometimes there is an intentional thing that happens to a child, but then a resulting thing happens as a result of the intentional thing, which wasn't the intended result, and that part could be considered an accident too. That is all I meant. So not blameless, but not intended murder. This is not what you were talking about, but some others were.

It has been known to happen that parents could take their child into the ER for a medical condition which had nothing to do with them causing it, but yet the parents could end up subsequently blamed and the condition misdiagnosed. I could believe there could be accidental deaths which are truly accidental, but which the parents may be afraid that they *would* be blamed, and so may cover up. I imagine that is also why some witnesses don't want to come forward to police with what they may have seen, for fear of being subsequently accused themselves. I do agree however, that even if such a horrible accident were to happen which the parents who didn't participate in the accident at all, wanted to hide, they wouldn't just throw out their child in the trash, or the sewer. That is truly unthinkable.

Yes, I did word that incorrectly I suppose. Accident means accident to me (since purposeful acts aren't accidents) and I was under the false impression it meant that to others.

But still, I have not seen such a case where the COD was ruled accidental by the ME and the child's body was hidden or discarded like trash to decompose in the elements. The only time I have seen that happen is when the MOD is homicide for the child.

Since the death certificate would list the MOD as a homicide even if it later turned out to be a manslaughter or whatever I still say no child is discarded by parents when their child accidentally dies at no fault of the parent(s). Such as the child being out on a concrete patio falling and hitting their head accidentally.

Discarding little dead bodies is about the most inhumane think I can think of and if the parents weren't at fault the first thing they would do is call 911 immediately even if their child was unresponsive.

Donjeta is right.

Originally Posted by donjeta View Post

people hide bodies if they have something to hide. Jmo.

 

[bessie]

ADMIN WARNING:

Hi guys,

Please don't post rumors or quote posts that contain them.

We need to be patient and let the ME complete the results, and let LE complete their investigation.

We all want to know what happened to dear sweet Noah, but pointing fingers at family not named as suspects is not how we roll here.

Thank you

The rumors and negative speculation about the parents must stop. No matter how the circumstances look to you right now, keep in mind that you don't know everything. In a countless number of cases, the initial suspicions have proven to be incorrect. Just imagine the harm done to grieving parents by wrongful accusations. Unless LE gives a clear indication that the parents are to blame, they remain off limits.

This is a final warning.

TIA for your cooperation.

 

[lillygator]

I have a problem with the lid being removed by LE at an earlier search. Can't be an accident if the lid was on. My other problem is with the mother sleeping for 2 to 3 hours with an infant. I have raised 3 daughters and babysit my grandkids and infants just don't sleep that long.

I respectfully disagree 100%, I have 3 children and my youngest is 3 now and all 3 of mine slept good stretches early on....

so no cod yet?

 

[toevlugsoord]

ADMIN WARNING:



The rumors and negative speculation about the parents must stop. No matter how the circumstances look to you right now, keep in mind that you don't know everything. In a countless number of cases, the initial suspicions have proven to be incorrect. Just imagine the harm done to grieving parents by wrongful accusations. Unless LE gives a clear indication that the parents are to blame, they remain off limits.

This is a final warning.

TIA for your cooperation.

Does rumours include news people answering questions on Twitter? Like their own understanding and thoughts? I have something interesting to share but it might be considered a rumour. It's something a newscaster said on their Twitter account.

 

[NSS]

I respectfully disagree 100%, I have 3 children and my youngest is 3 now and all 3 of mine slept good stretches early on....

so no cod yet?

I raised 8 and they all slept through the night at an early age (weeks not months) but I couldn't persuade them to take another 3 hours (and there were days when I tried). I have seen them take a short nap after the school run, but it was barely enough time to put up the dishwasher, take care of some laundry or (occasionally) run around with a vacuum. I am sure there are 'littles' out there that would, but Mother Nature didn't bless me with around the clock sleepers after about 12 weeks or so.

I envy you Lillygator. I didn't know what a daytime nap was for 35 years.