GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #5

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I didn't say that I knew that someone put the lid back on. I know there is some theorizing that he could have fallen in and the lids could have flipped back in place. If you look at previous threads, I was a big proponent of that theory and linked to several cases.

However, IMO, 1) the type of lid we know know was used is not the kind that flips around. The lids that flip around are seated down in to a lip where they are supported but if you step on one side, it can fall in while still being braced in the center like a fulcrum. We have now seen the type of lid and it is not that type. The type of lid on this septic tank is plastic and sits on tops of the hole or tank entry way and is bolted down around the outside. It does not sit inside on a lip or ledge. It couldn't flip like that. I still maintain that there is room for this to be ENTIRELY an accident but I find it unlikely.
2) If it was entirely an accident and know other person was involved in replacing the lid...why would the parents lie? Working through that scenario...AW & PT left the children at home alone. AW comes home to discover that Noah is nowhere to be found. She looks around outside and sees nothing of concern but does not see Noah. She calls the police to report him missing because she legitimately believes he is missing. So...why lie? To save her own skin? Her child is MISSING. He could be abducted. He could be walking down the road and hit by a car. He could be in the large pond nearby or lost in the woods. Time is of the essence. Timing is *everything* in a missing child case. So...why lie? Why wait so long to tell the truth...the truth which changes the scope of the investigation. I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree. AW's now obvious deception, as well as PT's deception that we now know about thanks to the judge's comment do not, IMO, fit with a scenario of 100% true and total tragic accident involving no other person.

Its obvious why they would lie.Because they didn't want to get in trouble for leaving the kids home unattended.It really doesn't change the course of the investigation.She could be telling the truth as to Noah being there when she went back to bed and then woke up to him being gone.
The timing would still be the same.
 
But we aren't discussing drug users who are lucky enough to look healthier than they are. We are discussing commonly seen, tell tale signs that professionals look for as red flags. And yes, I agree that diet and lifestyle play a role. I am not saying they are drug users. You won't find a single post from me declaring I am certain beyond all doubt that they are drug users (other than the marijuana that PT admits to having smoked weekly for 15 years). But I disagree that there is nothing in their mug shots that would indicate to a trained professional that an an assessment for drug use might be appropriate.

In this situation an assessment for drug use would be appropriate no matter what they looked like.
 
Are there specs on this type of septic tank? The pictures several threads ago of the type of lid/tube to the bottom, are they pretty accurate? Can we find out the dimensions of the access pipe?

Because if it's just like the example pictures we've seen, I do not think a large-for-age 5 year old boy in a puffy winter coat would make it down that pipe without... help.
 
Are there specs on this type of septic tank? The pictures several threads ago of the type of lid/tube to the bottom, are they pretty accurate? Can we find out the dimensions of the access pipe?

Because if it's just like the example pictures we've seen, I do not think a large-for-age 5 year old boy in a puffy winter coat would make it down that pipe without... help.

I think there was an article that gave the dimensions of the lid. That should give us the max dimensions of the access pipe, right?


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Its obvious why they would lie.Because they didn't want to get in trouble for leaving the kids home unattended.It really doesn't change the course of the investigation.She could be telling the truth as to Noah being there when she went back to bed and then woke up to him being gone.
The timing would still be the same.

First of all, it is not obvious to me that they are lying ONLY to cover up the fact that they left the kids alone if that fact did NOT play a role in whatever happened to Noah. Lots of people do foolish or even neglectful things but then come round to quickly realize when faced with something more serious. In your scenario with the accident happening when AW was napping as she said she was and not during the time the kids were home alone, 1) the fact that the kids were left alone has no bearing on the outcome, and is so much a lesser issue than a missing child, so WHY LIE? and 2) If that WAS the case, then these parents felt so little responsibility for their children, that they viewed saving their own hides over a far less serious charge was more important than finding their child that they actually thought was missing. IMO, that is a pretty awful. That makes them selfish monsters just as much as any of the other heinous things people have speculated about here.

And, in that scenario, if leaving the kids alone had NOTHING to do with what ultimately caused Noahs' demise then...

1) I think we would have heard about it in the bond hearing. We learned that they left the kids alone - this was new information for us and big news. If they had brought the charge of neglect based on AW leaving Noah wholly unsupervised while she napped, I think that would have come out yesterday.
2) If nothing had happened to Noah and/or Baby A while he was alone during the time AW frove PT to the store and to work, she still could have been charged with neglect for that but there is nothing there that warrants the greater charge against her. Additionally, the Commonwealth Attorney would have had a choice about pressing charges on that. If no harm came to them, it is the CA's discretion to press charges or not as Virginia does not have a strict code about unattended children and leaves each case up to the individual jurisdictions.

But I disagree with that scenario all together and I disagree that her deception does not alter the investigation and that the timing would be the same.

First of all, we never really got a definitive answer that we as lay people can consider reliable. The last official updated timeline for that Sunday morning that we have from LE (unless I missed an additional update) was clarified by Akers...

“It was initially reported that Noah was last seen between 9 and 9:30 a.m. Sunday. However, at a news conference Wednesday, Assistant Pulaski County Administrator Anthony Akers clarified that Noah was actually last seen by his mother at 7 a.m. watching cartoons. His mother then went and took a nap, and woke up about 10:30 a.m. and noticed Noah was missing.
Akers said the mother did a search of the residence then immediately called 911, and the search began shortly after 11 a.m.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/local/p...cle_86971938-fb24-5957-9562-89fb1f087864.html

That was clarified for us on Mar 24 (Wednesday) but we now know that LE actually knew that AW & PT left the children alone as of March 23 (Tuesday) and still, LE left us with a time line for that morning that they *knew* was inaccurate. I believe that was part of LE's strategy to keep it quiet but had they known sooner, their investigation might well have gone differently.

Looking back at what we have from MSM and press conferences, we know that Sherrif Davis said that all along there were two side-by-side investigations being conducted. The investigation that looked at Noah as a missing child involved decisions made on the idea that he was on foot. How far can a 5 year old walk in 30 minutes, 60 minutes, three hours? How far in to the woods, the meadows? Could he be in this stream or that pond? And now, with the information that he was home alone...the time frame widens for LE. Clearly, LE knew more by then than they allowed us to know. But in the earliest stages of this...in the moments when she first called LE...they were told they were working with a much narrower window of time.

We also know now that she was probably gone longer than the 15 minutes she claims that it took to drive PT to work and return home. We know this b/c we know that his work is 5 miles, an approximate 8 minutes each way PLUS the time the stopped at the convenience store.

It is well established that the first three hours are CRUCIAL in any missing child investigation.

The Center for Missing and Exploited Children (the recognized experts in this matter) tell us:
The first three hours are the most critical when trying to locate a missing child. The murder of an abducted child is rare, and an estimated 100 cases in which an abducted child is murdered occur in the U.S. each year. A 2006 study indicated that 76.2 percent of abducted children who are killed are dead within three hours of the abduction. [2]
http://www.missingkids.com/KeyFacts

Yes, you are right that if he fell in the septic tank, he would have had mere minutes to survive before succumbing. But had she been home, would he be in the back yard alone and unwatched (we know from Courtney's cousin that the answer might well have been yes...but we can also give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she might have been watching him, supervising him from a window.) We know the lid if not the kind that can flip allowing him to disappear in less than a second as he plummeted down. He would have had to get to the lid, remove it (if it was not bolted down, it might still take him a minute or two to figure it out, grapple with it (it was only 2 or 2.5 lbs but would have been large enough around that it would be cumbersome for a child to remove quickly and easily). She might have heard him scream. She might have noticed the absence of "kid noise" in the yard (I worry more when my kids are silent).

There are a lot of "what if's" and could have beens. But in the "truly an accident" scenario that occurred AFTER she came home and was sleeping, none of them present a *reason* to lie other than saving herself...which, again, is pretty awful if she actually thought he was MISSING.

Aside from that...and I realize that these parents probably could not care less about this...but widening that time frame and allowing other LE agencies and several legitimate non-profit SAR's to participate in an ongoing search must have cost a small fortune.

IMO, LE knew that the parents had more to do with Noah's "disappearance" than they reported initially but without proof...or more specifically a body, they had to do their due diligence and maintain a legitimate "missing child" search as well. And that search got bigger and wider based on LE not really having a solid timeline until Tuesday when they admitted they had left him alone. Would AW & PT telling the truth about leaving the kids alone have saved Noah's life. No. I don't think, with everything we know, that it would have made a difference. But in your scenario, they don't have the weight of knowing that he is dead and in the septic pressing on them. I doubt that lie would have perpetuated for 2+ days if they legitimately thought he was missing.

Either way, LE and the CA either know or suspect something happened in the time the kids were left alone or they are using that to buy time until the final autopsy report is complete and they expect to increase the charges. I truly don't believe that if nothing happened to them in the time they were alone that the judge would have been so very clear about her distrust of both parents and they would have had a better chance for bond - especially PT.
 
First of all, it is not obvious to me that they are lying ONLY to cover up the fact that they left the kids alone if that fact did NOT play a role in whatever happened to Noah.

Sorry that was so lengthy and rambling!!!! That was written during Bubble Guppies, two rounds of peanut butter toast cut to look like ducks, a trip to to the potty, rescuing socks from the dog who was using them as a chew toy, etc. I swear I can normally articulate more concisely!!!
 
Are there specs on this type of septic tank? The pictures several threads ago of the type of lid/tube to the bottom, are they pretty accurate? Can we find out the dimensions of the access pipe?

Because if it's just like the example pictures we've seen, I do not think a large-for-age 5 year old boy in a puffy winter coat would make it down that pipe without... help.

I think there was an article that gave the dimensions of the lid. That should give us the max dimensions of the access pipe, right?


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There are pictures of the same type of lid in a couple of MSM's. I posted one a while ago but will have to go find it. It is the size of a small manhole cover, basically, as this type of tank as an entry way for a repair person to get in...I will have to find the right wording.
 
Are there specs on this type of septic tank? The pictures several threads ago of the type of lid/tube to the bottom, are they pretty accurate? Can we find out the dimensions of the access pipe?

Because if it's just like the example pictures we've seen, I do not think a large-for-age 5 year old boy in a puffy winter coat would make it down that pipe without... help.

I think there was an article that gave the dimensions of the lid. That should give us the max dimensions of the access pipe, right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Okay...this video shows the type of septic (a high rise or a septic with a riser)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s84bVDWWyY

This MSM shows the lid as background footage while they discuss the tank being pumped. Shown at 1:17.
http://www.wdbj7.com/video/sanitation-technician-describes-discovery-of-noah-thomas/32055550

Edited to add: it was stated in MSM that even though this was a high rise or septic with a riser, the lid was at ground level - so that entry way, that black pipe part in the YouTube video, would have been buried with the lid laying on top like a cap).
 
I can't stay caught up. So both parents still in jail, no bond, baby A is still safely out of the dangerous environment her "parents" exposed her to? Parents admitting to drug use? Judge says no child is safe around AW?

Does that about sum up the last few pages?
 
I can't stay caught up. So both parents still in jail, no bond, baby A is still safely out of the dangerous environment her "parents" exposed her to? Parents admitting to drug use? Judge says no child is safe around AW?

Does that about sum up the last few pages?

Yes. The only additional piece of info is that at from the bond hearing, we learned that AW & PT left Noah and Baby A alone at home when AW drove PT to work.
 
so i've been consumed in doing my WS civic duty posting updates/tweets in all things hernandez on verdict watch and now verdict and aftermath (yay!!! they got the SOB :cheer:) and am woefully behind here :(

could someone be lovely and have mercy on a queenie bee and give me the cliff notes version of what's up ......i know there was to be a bond hearing yesterday, i can't imagine either of them were granted that.......do we have any more scoopage?

please? with honey on top? :D

:tyou:
 
so i've been consumed in doing my WS civic duty posting updates/tweets in all things hernandez on verdict watch and now verdict and aftermath (yay!!! they got the SOB :cheer:) and am woefully behind here :(

could someone be lovely and have mercy on a queenie bee and give me the cliff notes version of what's up ......i know there was to be a bond hearing yesterday, i can't imagine either of them were granted that.......do we have any more scoopage?

please? with honey on top? :D

:tyou:

Both denied bond.

PT attorney asked that he be released so he could go back to his job lest he lose his house and car. Judge said PT had been deceptive and she could not trust him.

AW attorney asked that she be released and that she would go stay with an uncle who also has an 11 year old daughter. Judge said that it would be inappropriate for AW to reside anywhere with children present.

We also learned that PT and AW left Noah and Baby A alone when AW drove PT to work.
PT admits to having used marijuana every week for the last 15 years.
Marijuana and Rx drugs found in home.
Baby A remains in foster care/custody of CPS. She had a serious respiratory problem when CPS examined her at their home the Monday she w
 
Not to make light of all the parenting stories but my kids have each had their fair shares of getting into stuff they shouldn't have. I used to kid that I am a VIP at poison control. That's why they have established help lines like poison control because kids getting into stuff is common and often needs professional guidance
 
Both denied bond.

PT attorney asked that he be released so he could go back to his job lest he lose his house and car. Judge said PT had been deceptive and she could not trust him.

AW attorney asked that she be released and that she would go stay with an uncle who also has an 11 year old daughter. Judge said that it would be inappropriate for AW to reside anywhere with children present.

We also learned that PT and AW left Noah and Baby A alone when AW drove PT to work.
PT admits to having used marijuana every week for the last 15 years.
Marijuana and Rx drugs found in home.
Baby A remains in foster care/custody of CPS. She had a serious respiratory problem when CPS examined her at their home the Monday she w
AN i cannot thank you enough!! you have saved me so much time.....i'm trying to catch up on so many cases......you're a life saver :)

thank goodness they are right where they should be! :mad: i can't wait for the autopsy results to come back........for goodness sakes it sounds like paul just thought he could stroll right out of there (smh).......unbelievable........

as for the drug use admitted to.......it's just my opinion..but those mug shots look like they are doing more than that to me......

:rose: noah
 
Sorry that was so lengthy and rambling!!!! That was written during Bubble Guppies, two rounds of peanut butter toast cut to look like ducks, a trip to to the potty, rescuing socks from the dog who was using them as a chew toy, etc. I swear I can normally articulate more concisely!!!

Excellent recap, especially for folks that are trying to come into this thread without background!!!!!

:blowkiss: and thanks for the rambling. :happydance: there are posters like you that take pause, and do a recap as we go along!

:grouphug:
 
First of all, it is not obvious to me that they are lying ONLY to cover up the fact that they left the kids alone if that fact did NOT play a role in whatever happened to Noah. Lots of people do foolish or even neglectful things but then come round to quickly realize when faced with something more serious. In your scenario with the accident happening when AW was napping as she said she was and not during the time the kids were home alone, 1) the fact that the kids were left alone has no bearing on the outcome, and is so much a lesser issue than a missing child, so WHY LIE? and 2) If that WAS the case, then these parents felt so little responsibility for their children, that they viewed saving their own hides over a far less serious charge was more important than finding their child that they actually thought was missing. IMO, that is a pretty awful. That makes them selfish monsters just as much as any of the other heinous things people have speculated about here.

And, in that scenario, if leaving the kids alone had NOTHING to do with what ultimately caused Noahs' demise then...

1) I think we would have heard about it in the bond hearing. We learned that they left the kids alone - this was new information for us and big news. If they had brought the charge of neglect based on AW leaving Noah wholly unsupervised while she napped, I think that would have come out yesterday.
2) If nothing had happened to Noah and/or Baby A while he was alone during the time AW frove PT to the store and to work, she still could have been charged with neglect for that but there is nothing there that warrants the greater charge against her. Additionally, the Commonwealth Attorney would have had a choice about pressing charges on that. If no harm came to them, it is the CA's discretion to press charges or not as Virginia does not have a strict code about unattended children and leaves each case up to the individual jurisdictions.

But I disagree with that scenario all together and I disagree that her deception does not alter the investigation and that the timing would be the same.

First of all, we never really got a definitive answer that we as lay people can consider reliable. The last official updated timeline for that Sunday morning that we have from LE (unless I missed an additional update) was clarified by Akers...

“It was initially reported that Noah was last seen between 9 and 9:30 a.m. Sunday. However, at a news conference Wednesday, Assistant Pulaski County Administrator Anthony Akers clarified that Noah was actually last seen by his mother at 7 a.m. watching cartoons. His mother then went and took a nap, and woke up about 10:30 a.m. and noticed Noah was missing.
Akers said the mother did a search of the residence then immediately called 911, and the search began shortly after 11 a.m.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/local/p...cle_86971938-fb24-5957-9562-89fb1f087864.html

That was clarified for us on Mar 24 (Wednesday) but we now know that LE actually knew that AW & PT left the children alone as of March 23 (Tuesday) and still, LE left us with a time line for that morning that they *knew* was inaccurate. I believe that was part of LE's strategy to keep it quiet but had they known sooner, their investigation might well have gone differently.

Looking back at what we have from MSM and press conferences, we know that Sherrif Davis said that all along there were two side-by-side investigations being conducted. The investigation that looked at Noah as a missing child involved decisions made on the idea that he was on foot. How far can a 5 year old walk in 30 minutes, 60 minutes, three hours? How far in to the woods, the meadows? Could he be in this stream or that pond? And now, with the information that he was home alone...the time frame widens for LE. Clearly, LE knew more by then than they allowed us to know. But in the earliest stages of this...in the moments when she first called LE...they were told they were working with a much narrower window of time.

We also know now that she was probably gone longer than the 15 minutes she claims that it took to drive PT to work and return home. We know this b/c we know that his work is 5 miles, an approximate 8 minutes each way PLUS the time the stopped at the convenience store.

It is well established that the first three hours are CRUCIAL in any missing child investigation.

The Center for Missing and Exploited Children (the recognized experts in this matter) tell us:
The first three hours are the most critical when trying to locate a missing child. The murder of an abducted child is rare, and an estimated 100 cases in which an abducted child is murdered occur in the U.S. each year. A 2006 study indicated that 76.2 percent of abducted children who are killed are dead within three hours of the abduction. [2]
http://www.missingkids.com/KeyFacts

Yes, you are right that if he fell in the septic tank, he would have had mere minutes to survive before succumbing. But had she been home, would he be in the back yard alone and unwatched (we know from Courtney's cousin that the answer might well have been yes...but we can also give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she might have been watching him, supervising him from a window.) We know the lid if not the kind that can flip allowing him to disappear in less than a second as he plummeted down. He would have had to get to the lid, remove it (if it was not bolted down, it might still take him a minute or two to figure it out, grapple with it (it was only 2 or 2.5 lbs but would have been large enough around that it would be cumbersome for a child to remove quickly and easily). She might have heard him scream. She might have noticed the absence of "kid noise" in the yard (I worry more when my kids are silent).

There are a lot of "what if's" and could have beens. But in the "truly an accident" scenario that occurred AFTER she came home and was sleeping, none of them present a *reason* to lie other than saving herself...which, again, is pretty awful if she actually thought he was MISSING.

Aside from that...and I realize that these parents probably could not care less about this...but widening that time frame and allowing other LE agencies and several legitimate non-profit SAR's to participate in an ongoing search must have cost a small fortune.

IMO, LE knew that the parents had more to do with Noah's "disappearance" than they reported initially but without proof...or more specifically a body, they had to do their due diligence and maintain a legitimate "missing child" search as well. And that search got bigger and wider based on LE not really having a solid timeline until Tuesday when they admitted they had left him alone. Would AW & PT telling the truth about leaving the kids alone have saved Noah's life. No. I don't think, with everything we know, that it would have made a difference. But in your scenario, they don't have the weight of knowing that he is dead and in the septic pressing on them. I doubt that lie would have perpetuated for 2+ days if they legitimately thought he was missing.

Either way, LE and the CA either know or suspect something happened in the time the kids were left alone or they are using that to buy time until the final autopsy report is complete and they expect to increase the charges. I truly don't believe that if nothing happened to them in the time they were alone that the judge would have been so very clear about her distrust of both parents and they would have had a better chance for bond - especially PT.

They lied so they wouldn't get in trouble for leaving them alone.I honestly do not see how that is so hard to see.If they told the police that they left them alone ,their children might have been taken away from them or face charges.They were willing to risk lying in hopes the police wouldn't find out.Stupid ,yes,but not everyones a smart cookie.
 
They lied so they wouldn't get in trouble for leaving them alone.I honestly do not see how that is so hard to see.If they told the police that they left them alone ,their children might have been taken away from them or face charges.They were willing to risk lying in hopes the police wouldn't find out.Stupid ,yes,but not everyones a smart cookie.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. There is no way to tell at this point if they lied *merely* so they would not get in to trouble for leaving them alone or if harm came to Noah during that time and they had more reason to lie than just worrying about getting trouble for the act of leaving them alone. It's not an issue of being hard to see, IMO. It is a matter of looking at the totality of the information we have and making a best guess at this point. You have your opinions and I have mine. Thanks for sharing yours.
 
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