GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #5

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  • #501
Not sure if the name has travelled beyond the UK, but we call that type of person a "grief wh**e". Not a nice term, but I guess it sums it up - someone who gets over-involved in a tragic situation for the attention they gain from it, or to feel important or gain a type of status they wouldn't normally have. Not always intentionally.

The photos of the child at the grave so soon after Noah was buried, bothered me. I'd be concerned about that little one personally. Its not a theme park or a place to go for fun, its the final resting place of a tragic little boy, and I don't think it is a place for his friends, certainly not this soon. They can't process what has happened, and it should be explained sensitively and in private. I just felt very uneasy about all of grave side visiting. I just wonder if some of these people were so quick to visit Noah when he was alive. Sorry if that offends.

Thanks for saying this! I have a real problem with Darlie Routier and birthday celebrations at the grave. It makes me sick. And how inappropriate for others grieving loved ones nearby. Once you are deceased, you don't grow older or have birthdays. That is what is lost, whether you were 50 or 5. It is a loss. You can respect the day, honor the day, memorialize the day but that other is beyond me. JMO
 
  • #502
Can't speak for the civilian community in the US but that term is definitely known in US military circles. We see it a lot with service members killed in the line of duty. You described it really well. And you are correct that it is not always intentional.

Curious. How is it expressed in the military? Any stereotypical behaviors? You don'have to answer or be very specific if you answer. TIA!
 
  • #503
I just spent my whole lunch reading about Shaniya Davis. How horrendous.
 
  • #504
The one seed of hope that I am really sowing in this case is that if Noah did pass at the hands of his parents then I feel a conviction will come. They do not look capable of the perfect crime. Then again, Casey Anthony isn't exactly a brain surgeon and I feel she got away with something although I am still not sure what.
 
  • #505
I just spent my whole lunch reading about Shaniya Davis. How horrendous.

I only wish I could get the image of that monster carrying her into the elevator out of my mind. Tears still roll down my face for beautiful Shaniya every time I think of her.
I've had many nightmares over what she must have endured.
 
  • #506
When I visit a grave, I will sometimes walk around a little, and I see these 'trinket' things. All kinds of things.. stuffed little animals, little trinkets, what I envisioned as being some of the deceased's favorite things, as well as flowers, candles, mostly on the graves of children, and it just makes me bawl, because I can just feel the agony and grief of those who loved the deceased. Such an incredibly sad place. Surely not a place for a child, imho.

When my first cousin lost her only daughter she put a small angel every month on her grave. They are made of stone so they haven't deteriorated. Her husband bought a beautiful bench so that she or anyone could sit there beside the grave as long as they desired. Others who knew her have also placed angels on her grave. It is beautifully done and shows she still is much loved and is so missed still to this day by many.

I wouldn't put anything that would deteriorate like stuffed animals. Of course I have put real flowers that I knew wouldn't last but they look much better than the plastic or silk flowers some put on graves. Here the ones who provides the perpetual care throws them away once they no longer look good.

The way I look at it the family members paid for that plot of land where their loved ones rest and they are costing more and more so they should be able to put whatever they like as long as it is tasteful.

I love to see the ones who have a photo of the deceased where it is mounted into the headstone. I also read the engraved words too. Some of them are such beautiful heartfelt words they make me tear up.
 
  • #507
It's starting to look like we need a bigger table!

:floorlaugh:
 
  • #508
Guys, we are going to need a much bigger table it appears or start doubling up in the seats.


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  • #509
  • #510
I don't have a problem with kids being taken to visit Noah's grave site. Kids are often overlooked in the grieving process and they should be included in all phases. People think shielding children is kind, but it really isn't. They need to grieve like everyone else and feel part of what is going on at the time. It helps them cope just like it does an adult. If we prevent them from going through the process, they grow to hide their feelings because it is what we taught them to do.

I know many people who observe birthdays and holidays after a death. Maybe they see it as being able to do something positive to remember their loved one or maybe it is their faith which leads them to believe there is an afterlife. We each have our own way of coping with death and there is no wrong way to do it...unless it is harmful to someone else.
 
  • #511
That was one of my first questions. And as far as all the crazy stuff that's came out or lack of it... I think we see that often. Media is in a hurry to be "the first" to report even if it isn't factual or complete. People read it and run with it, before we know it, its taken a life of its own. I read on this case, where someone had given out the wrong address of the parents and people living at the wrong address were getting death threats. LEO was having to deal with that and all the stuff in the moment with the case. Crazy stuff people post online has become way too crazy. We don't know what the LEO we seeing from their side. I am sure that some ways social media helps but it also brings out the crazies. In this new era, the LEO are danged if they do and danged if they don't. They have to guard the integrity of the case, and have enough probable cause file the charges. Personally if they are going to file charges, I want them to be able to prove it. Hate for a bad guy to get off on a technicality or an innocent person get convicted wrongly. Pray I never in a position to have to personally worry but never know.

It's like you're reading my mind.
 
  • #512
Same for me - I used to spend my pocket money on those true detective magazines. I remember when my parents moved house (after I had left home) my dad being rather worried about the large collection of crime books I'd left in the loft. He said he was going to let people know that should he go missing, I should be investigated as I knew too much about forensics!

The first case that really gripped me was a book I was given about a mum who claimed her baby daughter had been kidnapped, and was later found deceased dumped in a bin bag. She then had a son, but when she had a second daughter, she made the same claim - a kidnapper had taken the baby girl, who was found deceased. I can't remember much more about it - it must have been about 20 years ago when I read the book - but the mum was jailed for both killings and the dad, I think, wasn't involved. The forensics all involved matching the pattern in the make up of the plastic bag the baby was found in, to a roll found in their house. That was the start of my interest in crime solving, as much as crime itself. I even ended up doing a degree covering criminology!

There have been a couple of cases in the US where parents (mothers) did away with more than one of their children and not been charged until many years later. The husbands were believed to not be involved, as far as LE knew. Very creepy and scary! I, too, started reading true crime books at a young age that belonged to my mother! Watch what you leave laying around, moms and dads!
 
  • #513
I don't have a problem with kids being taken to visit Noah's grave site. Kids are often overlooked in the grieving process and they should be included in all phases. People think shielding children is kind, but it really isn't. They need to grieve like everyone else and feel part of what is going on at the time. It helps them cope just like it does an adult. If we prevent them from going through the process, they grow to hide their feelings because it is what we taught them to do.

I know many people who observe birthdays and holidays after a death. Maybe they see it as being able to do something positive to remember their loved one or maybe it is their faith which leads them to believe there is an afterlife. We each have our own way of coping with death and there is no wrong way to do it...unless it is harmful to someone else.

Nicely said. Thanks for adding your perspective. I can be a curmudgeon about these things. I agree on all you said about children and the grieving process.

My fear is the sensationalism that is being built up around this spilling over to the kids. I cannot recall which of the FB pages showed a pic of a kid, a classmate maybe, posing at the grave. That is what makes me uncomfortable. Even if you want to take the picture for your own kid to save for the future, I don't find it appropriate to share on a public FB page.
 
  • #514
I don't have a problem with kids being taken to visit Noah's grave site. Kids are often overlooked in the grieving process and they should be included in all phases. People think shielding children is kind, but it really isn't. They need to grieve like everyone else and feel part of what is going on at the time. It helps them cope just like it does an adult. If we prevent them from going through the process, they grow to hide their feelings because it is what we taught them to do.

I know many people who observe birthdays and holidays after a death. Maybe they see it as being able to do something positive to remember their loved one or maybe it is their faith which leads them to believe there is an afterlife. We each have our own way of coping with death and there is no wrong way to do it...unless it is harmful to someone else.

If I'm reading correctly the objection here is not the fact that the children are there but that they are being photographed while grieving and further exploited by having those pictures posted online for all to see.


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  • #515
We may also need to start a group for those of us who walk around cemeteries reading headstones in a non-creepy, non-goth, just purely for the interest and the communion with history way. My mom and I do this when we explore old cities. We are fascinated by names, piecing together family histories, looking for how the patterns fit in to the history of the area. Let's make that a separate group from the Weirdo Table.
 
  • #516
Nicely said. Thanks for adding your perspective. I can be a curmudgeon about these things. I agree on all you said about children and the grieving process.

My fear is the sensationalism that is being built up around this spilling over to the kids. I cannot recall which of the FB pages showed a pic of a kid, a classmate maybe, posing at the grave. That is what makes me uncomfortable. Even if you want to take the picture for your own kid to save for the future, I don't find it appropriate to share on a public FB page.
I learned the hard way about children and the grieving process when my child lost her father at an early age. I speak from experience, sadly.

I do understand what you mean about over-sharing on FB, but it is the society we live in today. I guess one good thing is kids are rarely on their parents FB page so they are unaware their private moments are being broadcast. I recall seeing a photo of a child at Noah's grave site and I thought it was someone who did know him so it didn't appear to me to be a sensational action. However, it was probably inappropriate to post it instead of leaving it as a personal moment.
 
  • #517
We may also need to start a group for those of us who walk around cemeteries reading headstones in a non-creepy, non-goth, just purely for the interest and the communion with history way. My mom and I do this when we explore old cities. We are fascinated by names, piecing together family histories, looking for how the patterns fit in to the history of the area. Let's make that a separate group from the Weirdo Table.

Much love guys but this is where I bail, lol. I can do cemeteries long enough to pay my respects and drop off flowers but that's it. Cemeteries and spiders are my line in the sand.


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  • #518
Curious. How is it expressed in the military? Any stereotypical behaviors? You don'have to answer or be very specific if you answer. TIA!

Oh, my. I will warn you now...this is a hot button issue for me.

Well, first, let me say, this is NOT the same as "anticipatory grief" which is a real aspect of grief that has become almost a psychological phenomenon with spouses and some parents of service members deployed to combat zones. They deal with seeing so much death, they deal for so many long months of intermittent communication with their loved ones that they almost begin to feel like the death of the service member is all but a sure thing.

The "Grief W#0@3" for lack of a better term (same term is used in military circles) typically is the first person to post about a mishap (military speak for an accident) or a combat death on Facebook before the Casualty Team has even had a chance to make official notifications to the Next of Kin. This was a problem even before Facebook, even before the Internet (they used call trees back then) but the advent of social media has made this a nightmare for the military to manage.

Then come the posts about how they knew the person, how badly the feel, how the person was super awesome that one time they barely interacted (if at all). The degree to which they knew or associated the person ends up becoming exaggerated. First it is that their service member was stationed at the same base, or they lived in the same neighborhood, and then suddenly it becomes that the one time that deceased person smiled at them was the most meaningful moment of their lives.

It becomes almost competitive. People begin to try to out do one another. "Oh, you lived in the same neighborhood? Well, I was his next door neighbor."

It spirals pretty quickly. Who can post the more poignant memorial on FB? Who can shed the most tears? Sometimes it involves direct contact with the family of the deceased. The unit the service member is attached to is supposed to be the one that takes the lead on supporting the family, but often someone else will swoop in. They want to be the one coordinating the meals, speaking to visitors (and often saying that the parent unit is not doing enough).

The thing is, they often don't realize they are doing it. They don't set out to draw attention to themselves, but it does bring a sense of status when you know someone who has died. Strange as that may seem, some people derive a sense of self worth and self importance from being "in the know" - especially those who have never actually experienced it themselves first hand. There isn't any malice in it - it just happens. Like rumors, it spreads like wildfire and dies out quickly pretty much right after the funeral.

It becomes a real challenge for the military commands to rein in and control. There have been some horrific occurences of wives finding out that their husbands have died by way of someone else's Facebook post. I am sure it is just as hard for LE to stay on top of in these types of cases.

So....sorry for the lengthy response. You just asked about something I am passionate about!

P.S.
I should add...there is one school of thought that this "hanger on" mentality IS a legitimate part of the grieving process or coping with the impact to the community but others believe it has to do with status.
 
  • #519
Nicely said. Thanks for adding your perspective. I can be a curmudgeon about these things. I agree on all you said about children and the grieving process.

My fear is the sensationalism that is being built up around this spilling over to the kids. I cannot recall which of the FB pages showed a pic of a kid, a classmate maybe, posing at the grave. That is what makes me uncomfortable. Even if you want to take the picture for your own kid to save for the future, I don't find it appropriate to share on a public FB page.


Yes, that's the issue I have as well.. I just don't agree with publicizing your child's grieving process. A lot of people on that page are waiting like hyenas for more graveside photos and I don't like the idea of a grieving child being a pawn in that twisted scenario. Children should be allowed and helped to grieve. But making them a part of the frenzy that's going on over there is not facilitating grieving; It's just feeding the hyenas.
 
  • #520
Do you notice how once a person dies, the people who know them have much more glowing reviews for the type of person they were than they had of them before they died? That Aunt that you only saw at Christmas that was the family busybody suddenly becomes the dearest woman ever after her death. Does that play a part in what you were explaining?

Yes, to some extent. But usually it is more about how well the person knew the deceased and how greatly they are affected and how much they can be involved in the process. It is more often an issue of proximity. But yes, I think the metamorphosis of memory happens in this scenario probably even more than in a typical grieving acquaintance. But I also think that happens for a lot of people when someone passes because we have a difficult time speaking ill of the dead. It is nicer for everyone if we just embrace the good parts.
 
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