VA - Virginia Tech Shooting, 32 murdered, 23 injured, 16 April 2007

[englishleigh]

A friend of mine in OH emailed today and told me that he was her neighbor's professor at VA Tech years ago. Her neighbor loved him and isn't one bit surprised that he died a hero, saving his students. He was dedicated, loved his job & loved the kids he taught.

RIP, Dr. Librescu, and thank you.

 

[Shadow205]

i disagree 100% with you guys who are saying those violent video games are no big deal-- they are SICK. at least, much of what i have seen is really sick. it's all about shooting and killing, and shooting to kill as many people as you possibly can. and you're going to tell me that's not going to do something negative, on some level, to a kid's mind? if they spend HOURS doing this every day?? sorry, i do not buy it. just because it's so common now, and your kids do it, their kids do it, everyone else's kids do it.. does NOT make it OK or healthy. we as a nation are in serious denial about this and one of these days we are going to have to WAKE UP. NO.. video games do not "make you a killer" (duh, and double-duh). i never said that and if you think i'm saying that then you are missing the point entirely. i am saying there is a definite correlation to these psycho young people who go on shooting rampages and the violent video games. for those who are already mentally unstable, and anti-social, it's just going to exacerbate their problems, their disassociation with reality, their violent tendencies, their distorted sense of reality, 'good vs. evil' mentality.. AND it significantly reduces their time spent gaining important REAL-LIFE SOCIAL SKILLS.. which is so crucial especially at a young age. so.. no, there's nothing you can say to convince me that letting your kids play hours upon hours of these violent games is a good thing. parents just let their kids do it because we are such a permissive society, and 'all the kids do it'.. so nobodfy wants to be the 'bad uncool parent' who says NO to these games.

anyway.. we don't know yet is there was a correlation with this guy and obsessive gaming.. but just wait, i'm sure it will come out... once they review his computer. he fits the typical profile exactly.

Here you go Reb:

Several Korean youths who knew Cho Seung Hui from his high school days said he was a fan of violent video games, particularly Counterstrike, a hugely popular online game published by Microsoft, in which players join terrorism or counterterrorism groups and try to shoot each other using all types of guns.

more at the link http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/17/AR2007041700563_3.html?nav=hcmodule

 

[Nova]

well, of course i understand about hamlet and that sort of thing. but obviously there has got to be a point where some serious red flags go up (which in this case apparently they did)... and still, when it comes to creative writing in a university setting... is that really considered kosher- or accetpable- to submit a play that goes "f this and f that, f you, dad, you mother-fing son of a b*tch *sshole,, i'm gonna kill you, you f8cking f8ckhead.." etc. etc. etc.. i mean come on. freedom of speech and expression aside, there has GOT to be some kind of standards that professors use,, and surely this not only raised concern about his mental state but probably didn't get him very good marks in the talent/originality/skill department.. and how many cuss words does it take to make something obscene?? that's not creative writing, that's insane, violent RANTING.

there is no way that i could imagine a student submitting something like this in my school... no way. the teacher probably woudn't even accept it.
and if you all are telling me that most colleges would be empty if they did not accept writing like this, then those are the colleges that i want to be going to (the empty ones!!)

Not only do students submit work with language like that, I ASSIGNED them to read plays with language like that. Theater is supposed to hold a mirror up to nature (to quote Shakespeare) and some people talk like that. And sometimes they rant.

We have at least one, great American playwright, David Mamet, who turns such language into poetry. Not everybody likes his work, but there's no question of his skill and artistry.

Now had I been Cho's professor, I certainly would have suggested he think about letting his characters express themselves more effectively. But the issue would be repetition, not use of the "F" word per se.

And I would have further advised him that in the theater, the build-up to violence is usually much more interesting than the act of violence itself (as both Oedipus and Hamlet show). But I wouldn't have forbidden him from writing violence or disturbing characters.

(I'm only speaking of Cho's work in the two examples we have. It sounds like he was sending off all sorts of alarm bells with his personal behavior. I don't know how I would have handled that because we don't have enough info. I never had a student who refused to respond when addressed; that would have concerned me greatly.)

 

[reportertype]

I knew a lot of writing kids in college who dropped the f-bomb all the time, esp in poetry. They thought it was cool and hip to be all angry and full of angst. I would agree with Nova, that a lot of younger people write that way ... it makes them "deep."

Or at least that was what a lot of them thought.

 

[Nova]

I knew a lot of writing kids in college who dropped the f-bomb all the time, esp in poetry. They thought it was cool and hip to be all angry and full of angst. I would agree with Nova, that a lot of younger people write that way ... it makes them "deep."

Or at least that was what a lot of them thought.

Exactly, reporter. And I certainly agree that a lot of it is silly.

But students aren't cured of thinking the "F" word is cool by being forbidden to use it. That just makes it cooler.

And nobody learns to write by being given a list of restrictions. Better they type the "F" word until they get bored with it.

 

[lawlady84]

i know a lot of people have been asking why they didn't lock down the campus after the first shooting -- its probably more complicated than it seems. i'm a senior at a university, and just thinking about what would happen logistically if they locked down campus at 8am... heres my thought

there are 26,000 students, and im sure only a fraction live on campus. most will commute. classes generally start around 8 or 9, so you figure people leave sometime before that. there's a shooting at 7:30, and the gunman is possibly on the loose. if all the buildings are locked down (ie. no one entering or leaving), what do you do about the probably over 5,000 people arriving on campus with nowhere to go? they'll congregate somewhere, and if there really is a gunman on the loose -- imagine shooting into that.

or, say the administration says "emergency, buildings locked, go home" -- chaos. what would people think? bomb, etc. especially after the bomb threats. or, if they say, here's a safe place, everyone arriving go to this building or this field - if they still don't know the gunman's identity he could easily go into whatever building or lecture hall undetected.

the administration probably thought they were making the best decision by not locking down the campus early, so they did not cause panic and could lower the probability of anyone else being hurt. if students are going about as if it was a normal day, and one person is acting erratically (considering he just murdered 2 people), that's a tip-off for police. also, students were not confined or gathered in particular areas, so just numerically there would be less of a chance for mass casualties.

sadly, this massacre still happened. and it is terrible, and i grieve for the innocent loss of life, and it really makes me question my safety here at a big, trusting school. but i am not sure that a lockdown would have changed anything in this situation - and in fact i imagine it could have made it worse.

 

[southcitymom]

Hi Nova! Thanks for your perspective as a playwright and a professor.

In hindsight, these plays are indeed discomfiting in a macabre way; however had they been presented in a university-level class, I would have thought them ineffective, but not frightening.

I've seen and felt way more violence in the local multiplexes and neighborhood stages of Atlanta than in this young man's two works. He's disturbed obviously, but I don't find the plays - taken out of the context of the entire event - to tell me more than he's not much of a playwright.

All my prayers to the VT community and the many people laid bare by this tragedy.

 

[southcitymom]

Exactly, reporter. And I certainly agree that a lot of it is silly.

But students aren't cured of thinking the "F" word is cool by being forbidden to use it. That just makes it cooler.

And nobody learns to write by being given a list of restrictions. Better they type the "F" word until they get bored with it.

You know I'm a HUGE fan of the F word, but I never worked it into a poem....!

 

[Marthatex]

Universities can't expel students for writing about violence. It's a very common theme in drama. (As you know from reading Oedipus and Hamlet.)

So, no, I don't think a discrimination claim would have been their worry.

But since this English professor felt he was so disturbed that she worked with him one-on-one for six months and reported her worries to a higher authority -

could they require that he get counseling if he wanted to stay in school? surely other people "noticed" behaviors that might be disturbing?

If he's over 18 can a college require counseling? Probably not.

My son had a serious incident where his dorm was set on fire. This crazy student set the room on fire, killed himself, and badly burned his roommate. Luckily most students were evacuated; but the thing is this kid had set a fire in another dorm and they kicked him out.

Since these were off-campus dorms, I guess no one communicated from one dorm to another, and maybe this dorm didn't check his background? Maybe he wasn't cited for the first fire, but this kid evidently was disturbed and no one did anything. (he was from India, or some country in that area) This could have been so much worse.

 

[lawlady84]

when i read the plays what disturbed me most was that this was written by a college student. the language, grammar, style, etc, sounded more like something a middle/high school student would write. i almost doubt his intelligence to do something like this on his own if this really was recent work. an english major? geeze

 

[southcitymom]

when i read the plays what disturbed me most was that this was written by a college student. the language, grammar, style, etc, sounded more like something a middle/high school student would write. i almost doubt his intelligence to do something like this on his own if this really was recent work. an english major? geeze

Sometimes people pick a major because they like it and want to learn more - not because they are any good at it. Seung-Hui obviously wanted to write and express some things. What? I do not know.

I agree that his plays have a juvenile quality in style, form, clarity, etc...

 

[IrishMist]

when i read the plays what disturbed me most was that this was written by a college student. the language, grammar, style, etc, sounded more like something a middle/high school student would write. i almost doubt his intelligence to do something like this on his own if this really was recent work. an english major? geeze

Hi Casey, and welcome to WS!

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read these plays! The swearing and violence didn't seem that bad, but this was a Senior majoring in English? :doh:

 

[hipmamajen]

I don't know a lot about guns, so I may be saying something totally stupid... Why would you file off the numbers if you don't intend to "get away" with a crime? Did this shooter not originally plan to kill himself, so he wanted a gun that would be harder to trace?

Like I said, I don't know a lot about guns, so that may be a dumb question...

 

[luvbeaches]

I still think the campus should have been locked down. Campus and city police could have blocked all entrances to campus. The kids could have gone home via the way they arrived (walking, riding the bus, riding their bike, or driving).

My kids all attended a large college (with over 30,000 students), and we've talked about this a bit. They were all surprised that the campus wasn't locked down.

My kids said that had they arrived upon a scene like that, where the campus is on a lock down, they would not have hung around.

I suppose they did what they thought was appropriate for the circumstances. I just think they should have closed off all entrances, and locked down all on-campus student housing (also).

I know if someone really wants to do what this guy did, they'd find a way. But I just feel that since they didn't know where this guy was, they should have at least closed things off for the day...or at least until they had a better handle on the situation.

Edited to add...I meant to say "welcome" to WS.

 

[IrishMist]

Sometimes people pick a major because they like it and want to learn more - not because they are any good at it. Seung-Hui obviously wanted to write and express some things. What? I do not know.

I agree that his plays have a juvenile quality in style, form, clarity, etc...

Hi SCM! Long time, no see

 

[southcitymom]

Hi SCM! Long time, no see

Hi Irish - I have been ultra busy in my offline pursuits and not been here much lately. It's always great to see you and I hope you are well!

 

[lawlady84]

thanks, ive been reading on different crimes here for a long time but never really posted.

Sometimes people pick a major because they like it and want to learn more - not because they are any good at it.

I agree, I'm just surprised. I'm a senior now graduating, and to major in a subject you need to take a certain number of classes covering the basics and then advanced facets of it -- here it is 10 semester long classes, plus basic requirements. Everyone has to take basic writing, etc. I don't know, it just didn't seem like it was written by someone who studied college English for 4 years.

Then again, English probably wasn't his first language. So I don't know. Still creepy

 

[southcitymom]

thanks, ive been reading on different crimes here for a long time but never really posted.




I agree, I'm just surprised. I'm a senior now graduating, and to major in a subject you need to take a certain number of classes covering the basics and then advanced facets of it -- here it is 10 semester long classes, plus basic requirements. Everyone has to take basic writing, etc. I don't know, it just didn't seem like it was written by someone who studied college English for 4 years.

Then again, English probably wasn't his first language. So I don't know. Still creepy

I'm very glad you posted - sorry if I came across snippy. I was trying to agree with you! Welcome to Websleuths and I hope to "see" you around more!

I think you are probably correct about the English as the second language aspect and we are on the same page about those plays really not feeling like college-level stuff.

 

[frangi8773]

Hi everyone just wanted to drop my two cents in....

I believe his writing and choice of past time were huge warning signs with this guy but after a certain point what can people do? You can pretty much tell a counselor what they want to here to get the hell out of there and then what are they to do?
If they have used all the appropriate channels to make sure this guy was noticed then their hands are tied..

With regards to the gaming and violent leanings, are we all not guilty of this to a point? We peruse Crime sights etc which some people would find completely ghoulish (my husband included).
I believe that there are just some people that no matter how we try and intervene they will one day 'blow'.
This was true here in Australia with Martin Bryant who murdered and 'hunted' down so many in Port Arthur Tasmania.
My husband had at one time dated his sister while MB was still very young and this guy had MAJOR mental issues. He had previously attacked people including my hubby and friends, and his sister was actually placed in boarding school to keep him away from her (?) He had professional help time and time again and it did no good.
I believe the problem is access to weapons. After Port Arthur our government bought back weapons at a cost of over half a billion dollars and our crimes with firearms has dropped. I am not naive enough to believe it ill never happen again but I truly believe that restricting "legal" access to weapons works.

My two cents.......

 

[LionRun]

I wondered why he would file off the serial numbers for the same reason. First we can accept as fact, I think, that the guns were bought legitimately and not from the underground. So, that would mean that Cho filed the serial numbers himself. The only reason that I can think of as to why he did that is if he originally planned on murdering one r more people without offing himself. I can't think of anything else that fits.

Does anyone else have any other ideas? That creep had some serious problems no doubt going back years, I imagine.

Lion