VA - Virginia Tech Shooting, 32 murdered, 23 injured, 16 April 2007

[frangi8773]

I agree with Toby. The logistics of closing down even a small campus would be a nightmare. Most college police forces are small and wouldn't have the manpower to effectively patrol the entire campus to make sure no one enters or leaves, etc. It would take time to get outside LE there. It's VERY hard to get the message out and make it happen in a short time when you're dealing with that many people.

I agree but this should be the lesson that will be learned from this experience I think.

The world is a very different place now and some emergency measured will have to be implemented to accomodate this. SADLY

 

[frangi8773]

Just wondering.....:waitasec:

Could they send mesages out via cell phones and/or pagers and have threat coding and proceedures....?

 

[panthera]

JERUSALEM — An Israeli lecturer who died in the massacre at a U.S. university saved the lives of several students by blocking the doorway of his classroom from the approaching gunman before he was fatally shot, his son said Tuesday.
Students of Liviu Librescu, 76, a holocaust survivor who was an engineering science and mathematics lecturer at Virginia Tech for 20 years, sent e-mails to his wife, Marlena, telling of how he blocked the gunman's way and saved their lives, said the son, Joe
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266506,00.html

His story has to be one of the saddest of this tragic event. He survives one of the worst events in world history, moves to the U.S., spends the latter years of his life (when he should be retired and enjoying life) still teaching and is killed by a crazed gunman on the date marked to commemorate the Holocaust.

 

[angelmom]

Just wondering.....:waitasec:

Could they send mesages out via cell phones and/or pagers and have threat coding and proceedures....?

They could do that, and it would be probably the only way.

BUT...who is going to accept liability for

a) students who don't have a cell phone (probably not many, but some)

b) students who don't have their cell phone with them/turned on

c) students who have a new phone number but forgot to tell the school

ALSO...what would they tell these students? Again, the ones who were not yet on campus could have been directed to go home. But a huge number live on campus. It was early in the morning when the first shots were fired. Many of them were probably happily asleep in their dorms or frat/sorority houses and not paying attention to the news or their phones. Where should they have gone when no one knew for sure where the shooter was?

I went to a school about this size, and a fire alarm in ONE dorm was a total nightmare and took forever for them to be sure it was safe. We literally stood outside for hours until they were sure everyone was out, and then made sure there was no actual fire. No keys, no coats, no nothing. We couldn't even leave. I can't imagine the whole campus in that state.

 

[panthera]

I am from NY, and we have the toughest handgun laws in the nation. Can someone tell me (from VA or someone with gun law knowledge) how can a gun shop sell someone a handgun without a serial number? :waitasec: Is this common practice?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

One law enforcement official said Cho's backpack contained a receipt for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol. Cho held a green card, meaning he was a legal, permanent resident. That meant he was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of a felony.
Roanoke Firearms owner John Markell said his shop sold the Glock and a box of practice ammo to Cho 36 days ago for $571.
"He was a nice, clean-cut college kid. We won't sell a gun if we have any idea at all that a purchase is suspicious," Markell said.
Investigators stopped short of saying Cho carried out both attacks. But State Police ballistics tests showed one gun was used in both.
And two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho's fingerprints were on both guns, whose serial numbers had been filed off.


MG

He could've filed off the serial numbers. What's more disturbing is where did the other gun come from? And why wasn't his purchase of the Glock suspicious, like what does a "clean cut college kid" need this weapon for? I thought there was supposed to be better monitoring of firearms purchases since 9/11, especially by someone who isn't a U.S. citizen. Or did he escape scrutiny because he isn't from the Middle East? :banghead: Just curious.

 

[Marthatex]

It takes time to "lock down" a campus, or a small town. It is unrealistic to imagine the VT admin calling for a lockdown and having the campus "immediately being locked down"....and "safe."

They had two hours before the 2nd episode.

 

[frangi8773]

I have lojack on my car. When it is moved I get an email ,a text message, phone calls at my home and on my cell ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Just a message but nonetheless I am notified when something is up.
Seems as though implementing this technology in a campus over the entire student body would be the most efficient way to get the word out over a wide area that something is up.
It could have made all the difference.

Missed this post... sorry 4 above stupid question......lol

 

[Marthatex]

cool idea. of course the reality of that scenario (if officials HAD warned everyone immediately).. is there would have been an ENORMOUS traffic jam of people all trying to escape at once, in a panic.

I've been there, and I think the students can walk from campus into the little campus commercial area nearby, with shops, cafes, etc. It's been a long time though, so not sure.

 

[frangi8773]

They could do that, and it would be probably the only way.

BUT...who is going to accept liability for

a) students who don't have a cell phone (probably not many, but some)

b) students who don't have their cell phone with them/turned on

c) students who have a new phone number but forgot to tell the school

ALSO...what would they tell these students? Again, the ones who were not yet on campus could have been directed to go home. But a huge number live on campus. It was early in the morning when the first shots were fired. Many of them were probably happily asleep in their dorms or frat/sorority houses and not paying attention to the news or their phones. Where should they have gone when no one knew for sure where the shooter was?

I went to a school about this size, and a fire alarm in ONE dorm was a total nightmare and took forever for them to be sure it was safe. We literally stood outside for hours until they were sure everyone was out, and then made sure there was no actual fire. No keys, no coats, no nothing. We couldn't even leave. I can't imagine the whole campus in that state.

At least students could inform each other and then a lock down could have been used and the students would not be like rabbits in the headlights ( no offense intended)

 

[annemc2]

I don't know what kind of illness Cho was suffering from, but illnesses with a psychotic component (eg schizophrenia) often produce marked cognitive decline. I'm surprised that he was functioning as well as he was. Like that he was showing up for class on time, paying attention to personal hygiene, eating, etc.

 

[frangi8773]

I feel as if no one has wanted to start bringing these emergency procedures in to place as it is like bad luck to even think of the possibility.
These threats are VERY real now, as real as the threat of a fire and there are procedures for that emergency.

 

[southcitymom]

I suppose I would be one of those professors that would disagree with you.

How about lecturing students to think out of the box,and teaching them "Yep,you're not in high school anymore,there are ways to express your thoughts,without resorting to the F word.If it must be used,it should be rarely." I think that would help students to think more creatively.

I was an honors English major and can use the F word in many creative ways!:dance:

 

[Marthatex]

well, of course i understand about hamlet and that sort of thing. but obviously there has got to be a point where some serious red flags go up (which in this case apparently they did)... and still, when it comes to creative writing in a university setting... is that really considered kosher- or accetpable- to submit a play that goes "f this and f that, f you, dad, you mother-fing son of a b*tch *sshole,, i'm gonna kill you, you f8cking f8ckhead.." etc. etc. etc.. i mean come on. freedom of speech and expression aside, there has GOT to be some kind of standards that professors use,, and surely this not only raised concern about his mental state but probably didn't get him very good marks in the talent/originality/skill department.. and how many cuss words does it take to make something obscene?? that's not creative writing, that's insane, violent RANTING.

there is no way that i could imagine a student submitting something like this in my school... no way. the teacher probably woudn't even accept it.
and if you all are telling me that most colleges would be empty if they did not accept writing like this, then those are the colleges that i want to be going to (the empty ones!!)

I agree, I've never heard of a senior English major having this level of writing skills; and "creative" writing doesn't mean sick, warped or sociopathic expression.

And I cannot imagine a benefit of violent videogames that simulate killing people.

 

[scandi]

He could've filed off the serial numbers. What's more disturbing is where did the other gun come from? And why wasn't his purchase of the Glock suspicious, like what does a "clean cut college kid" need this weapon for? I thought there was supposed to be better monitoring of firearms purchases since 9/11, especially by someone who isn't a U.S. citizen. Or did he escape scrutiny because he isn't from the Middle East? :banghead: Just curious.

Hi Panthera, I thought the same thing about why a college students purchase of the gun wasn't suspicious. Then tonight I saw an interview with the store owner who sold him the Glok, or 9mm. He made a little comment in passing that I caught, something like, "just like a regular college student", inferring by the way it was stated that it was an ordinary sale. The commentator asked how much ammunition he bought, and he said 1 box of practice shells.

So I guess a lot of students buy guns for sport. It is a very average gun, used by LE every day. Last night I saw a show that pointed out most criminals also use a 9mm - because they are so easy to come by.

Scandi

 

[Cypros]

I currently teach at a small college where shutting down the entire campus would be feasible as the number of people and the area of the campus is small and there is really only one entrance with a secondary access through the dormitory parking lot. However, having been a student at a couple of large universities, similar in scale to VT, I cannot imagine them being able to close the campus in any sort of effective way. It would be like closing down a small city.

I do think that much attention needs to be paid to developing an effective emergency announcement system. The idea of text messages to cell phones is not really useful in this context since students are usually required to turn their phones off while in class. As a faculty member, I don't even bother to carry my cell phone with me while on campus since I would have to turn it off anyway during class. Another problem with the cell phone idea is that it is totally reliant on people providing their cell phone number to the school for this purpose and keeping it updated whenever the number is changed -- not very likely. Probably a reasonable solution is the campus phones. Most classrooms have a landline phone and, of course, all offices and most dorm rooms have phones so some kind of automated emergency calling system to all the extensions on campus could be one possibility.

 

[Taximom]

But since this English professor felt he was so disturbed that she worked with him one-on-one for six months and reported her worries to a higher authority -

could they require that he get counseling if he wanted to stay in school? surely other people "noticed" behaviors that might be disturbing?

If he's over 18 can a college require counseling? Probably not.

My son had a serious incident where his dorm was set on fire. This crazy student set the room on fire, killed himself, and badly burned his roommate. Luckily most students were evacuated; but the thing is this kid had set a fire in another dorm and they kicked him out.

Since these were off-campus dorms, I guess no one communicated from one dorm to another, and maybe this dorm didn't check his background? Maybe he wasn't cited for the first fire, but this kid evidently was disturbed and no one did anything. (he was from India, or some country in that area) This could have been so much worse.

The professor stated tonight that other staff had asked her to do something with him as he was making others in the class uncomfortable by taking pictures ("especially under the desks") of other students w/o their permission. She decided to remove him from the classroom so the others wouldn't have to put up with him. She reported his actions to campus police, and other appropriate depts but nobody could require him to get counseling. His "violent" papers seemed a secondary concern in all this (IMO).

It's a shame that he wasn't removed from school, period, if he didn't go to counseling.

He had to be seeing someone in order to get meds. I haven't heard anything about that yet.

 

[panthera]

Hi Panthera, I thought the same thing about why a college students purchase of the gun wasn't suspicious. Then tonight I saw an interview with the store owner who sold him the Glok, or 9mm. He made a little comment in passing that I caught, something like, "just like a regular college student", inferring by the way it was stated that it was an ordinary sale. The commentator asked how much ammunition he bought, and he said 1 box of practice shells.

So I guess a lot of students buy guns for sport. It is a very average gun, used by LE every day. Last night I saw a show that pointed out most criminals also use a 9mm - because they are so easy to come by.

Scandi

Hi scandi!! I saw the interview of the gun store owner on FNC tonight also and I'm not blaming him in particular, but just the fact that a resident with a green card can obtain a gun, and also very curious where the second gun and all the ammunition that this store owner said would be necessary to commit this carnage came from. It's also really disturbing to me that the English professor recommended counseling for Cho which was refused and apparently there were other warning signs which were ignored.

 

[cheko1]

Hi scandi!! I saw the interview of the gun store owner on FNC tonight also and I'm not blaming him in particular, but just the fact that a resident with a green card can obtain a gun, and also very curious where the second gun and all the ammunition that this store owner said would be necessary to commit this carnage came from. It's also really disturbing to me that the English professor recommended counseling for Cho which was refused and apparently there were other warning signs which were ignored.

I am sure the same guy sold him the ammunition. Maybe the law states he can only sell him so much & he is just COA. Or else he himself is worried that he could be served with papers for a lawsuit, since Cho was mental & he could loose his license. Which would prevent him from ever selling a gun again or even owning one. BATF will get to the bottom of it.

I heard on one program tonight that they had found the tool Cho used to get rid of the serial numbers. The BATF already had the guns identified.

I also heard he used a 22 hand gun. He could of went to Wallmart & bought ammo for it. Getting ammo for a 9 mill is harder to get, he could of had it ordered, paid the guy cash. Gun dealers can & many times are crooked.

 

[Taximom]

I was captivated by the interview of Cho's former roomies tonight on CNN. They did everything in their power to first befriend the guy and then report him to others "up the line" when he just got too weird. This guy was a loudly ticking timebomb, and everyone that came in contact with him seemed to notice AND tried to do something about it eventually.

Did anyone see this interview tonight? I can't believe he fell through so many cracks.

They also said he had an imaginary girlfriend named "jelly" (and just who did I think of here at WS?!) or "jilly". I couldn't hear it that well, but it was something like that. The roomies do not think the girl killed in the dorm really knew Cho.

I hope there's a transcript of that interview. It was very interesting, and sad.

 

[scandi]

I do agree with you Panthera, but the problem is the law. The guy had the proper 3 pieces of ID to buy the gun, so it was a legal deal. He probably couldn't have refused the sale legally or that person's rights would be in jeopardy.

I don't think anyone on any kind of a Visa, resident or not, should be able to have all the rights the Constitution gives to its citizens. Why should foreigners be allowed to buy guns anyway! This killer had lived in the USA all of his life since about age 8.; He could have become a citizen but chose not to. And then these are State laws to boot I think.

BTW, he bought the .22 at a pawn shop.