VA - Virginia Tech Shooting, 32 murdered, 23 injured, 16 April 2007

[panthera]

Hopefully the outcome of this will be that more people understand mental illness, and not only the symptoms of mental illness, but everything that contributes to the development of an ongoing mental illness. As we know, this isn't something that just all of a sudden happened; this had been developing for a long period of time. There had to be a lot of individual factors over a long period of time.

A greater understanding may help prevent things like this from happening in the future.

From things coming out, for one, Virginia needs to change a few of their gun laws, as it is far too easy to walk out of a store with a gun.

I agree Buzz. There should have been more treatment for him as it's now coming out that he had problems going back years. He also had been treated in a mental health facility in 2005 after the stalking incident, but no charges were filed ~ which would've prevented him from buying the guns if they had been. It seems there were a lot of "red flags" about this guy but little was done either to help him or prevent this tragedy from happening. I absolutely agree about the gun laws ~ especially for someone who is not a U.S. citizen.

 

[IrishMist]

I'm wondering if Cho was ever sexually abused as a child? That would explain his rage and the topic of his "plays."

Could also be symbolic.

Or internalized disgust with the "immoral" state of the world, including the church pedophile scandal.

I read that he left angry notes directed at women and rich kids. He may have had a heightened sense of fairness or morality.

 

[Nova]

I'm wondering if Cho was ever sexually abused as a child? That would explain his rage and the topic of his "plays."

It certainly would.

But IM is also right that a lot of kids might relate to the concept of sexual abuse as representing their own childhood pain without ever having endured the physical event. Kids today grow up with the same movies-of-the-week and 24-hour news channels as the rest of us. They "see" on TV a lot of things (and repeatedly) that they never experience in real life.

(ETA: I wasn't sure from Cho's McBeef play whether the child abuse mentioned was supposed to be actual or was just an accusation from the boy who thought his stepdad had murdered his father.)

 

[panthera]

This is a huge tragedy that has affected the lives of so many people. It only happened two days ago and details are just coming out. I do not think that the media is giving it to much coverage. I want to try to understand why it happened. I want to pay my respects to the families of those affected by taking time out of my life to listen to their story. I have not seen any of the reporters treat anyone they were talking to with anything but respect and compassion. I think that they are doing an excellent job with their coverage.
I felt guilty last night because I switched the news off for an hour and watched American Idol. I'm sure there are a lot of families who wish they could change channels in their lives right now, back to a time when their loved one was with them.

I agree and don't think the cable news channels are giving this tragedy too much coverage at all. Too many times there is a "breaking news story" that disappears after it happens and we never know anything about the follow-up. I also am very much interested in what led up to Cho committing such an aggregious act and I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know "why" this happened. And most of all, how it can be prevented in the future.

Another irony is that it happened within days of the anniversaries of other tragedies: Waco, Oklahoma City and Columbine.

 

[Floh]

Killer's parents hospitalised 'with shock'

The parents of mass killer Cho Seung-hi were hospitalised with shock and had not attempted suicide, contrary to reports in Korean media.
Korea's Yonhap news agency reported that Cho's parents, who ran a dry cleaning shop in Centreville, Virginia, had been hospitalised after learning of ther son's killing rampage at Virginia Tech University.
Rumours earlier spread through Korean media sources that Cho's parents had attempted suicide.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=261805

I can't imagine what they must be feeling like.

but did they overlook what was going on with their son and fail to act before it was way too late, i wonder. it must be asked of parents to look to their chidren in order to protect society. they have a responsibility. i know i sound heartless, but with 32 dead, the question has to be asked. something has to be done to prevent this happening again.

all the above is in my opinion only.

 

[Taximom]

A former elementary school teacher who because of the 'system', miserably failed her own students.

My neice is a teacher of young children and tried to "identify" issues to parents of certain children she taught. In most cases, if not all, the parents rejected the thought that their child might need something extra. The children went flailing on to the next grade, not doing the best they could because their parents heard "special ed" and freaked out.

I highly doubt you failed any students, angelwngs. :blowkiss: It sounds like you cared very much for them. At some point, all you can do is pray for them and hope they eventually get the help they need. I sure can understand your frustrations though.

 

[lawlady84]

It certainly would.

But IM is also right that a lot of kids might relate to the concept of sexual abuse as representing their own childhood pain without ever having endured the physical event. Kids today grow up with the same movies-of-the-week and 24-hour news channels as the rest of us. They "see" on TV a lot of things (and repeatedly) that they never experience in real life.

(ETA: I wasn't sure from Cho's McBeef play whether the child abuse mentioned was supposed to be actual or was just an accusation from the boy who thought his stepdad had murdered his father.)

reading the play again, i didn't get the feeling that the stepfather actually did anything to the son -- more it seemed the son was so angry he was throwing any accusations he could at the stepfather. the stepfather seems to be on the defensive. besides being cruel to the mother - he didn't seem to act inappropriately to the son.

it seemed almost an oedipus complex that the son was jealous of the stepfather.

also, i don't really have issue with his cursing -- in "a heartbreaking work of staggering genius," for example, dave eggers writes totally freeform and curses really often -- it sounds as if a frustrated 20-something is actually narrating. but, the prose is well thought-out, well written, and quite moving. so i understand how writers can get "into" character. cho just seemed almost developmentally delayed in his writing - like an angry child, not a purposeful narrator. he seemed to want to curse just to curse, not to make his writing more "real."

then again, i know its not fair to compare a pulitzer prize nominated author with a crazed murderer. but its the clearest example that came to mind.

 

[Lesleegp]

I can't really say I agree with the blame being placed on the parents. The man is 23 years old, has been at college for at least four years. Do we even know that he kept in close contact with them? He's of age, and responsible for his own actions.

 

[lawlady84]

but did they overlook what was going on with their son and fail to act before it was way too late, i wonder. it must be asked of parents to look to their chidren in order to protect society. they have a responsibility. i know i sound heartless, but with 32 dead, the question has to be asked. something has to be done to prevent this happening again.

all the above is in my opinion only.

i totally agree, how can your child be so clearly disturbed and you not notice? i live in boston and my parents in new york, and i was in the dumps for a while after a messy breakup -- and my parents spotted it almost automatically and kept pressing about what was wrong, etc. assuming there's at least a decent relationship, by 22 parents know their children and should know when something is wrong. unless the child is such a master of deception that no one knows. but here, random people saw he was disturbed -- how did his parents not know? unless they didn't care. just my opinion, but who is going to help a clearly disturbed middle school student besides his parents? please.

before anyone jumps, maybe its a cultural thing, maybe they figured he was just shy, etc etc, but i don't buy it in this case. it's not like other cases where there were no real warning signs and everyone says "i'm shocked, he/she seemed so normal" -- everyone seemed to notice this kid was messed up from day 1, and tried to get him help. his parents should have had him committed to sort out what was clearly going on.

 

[angelmom]

i totally agree, how can your child be so clearly disturbed and you not notice? i live in boston and my parents in new york, and i was in the dumps for a while after a messy breakup -- and my parents spotted it almost automatically and kept pressing about what was wrong, etc. assuming there's at least a decent relationship, by 22 parents know their children and should know when something is wrong. unless the child is such a master of deception that no one knows. but here, random people saw he was disturbed -- how did his parents not know? unless they didn't care. just my opinion, but who is going to help a clearly disturbed middle school student besides his parents? please.

before anyone jumps, maybe its a cultural thing, maybe they figured he was just shy, etc etc, but i don't buy it in this case. it's not like other cases where there were no real warning signs and everyone says "i'm shocked, he/she seemed so normal" -- everyone seemed to notice this kid was messed up from day 1, and tried to get him help. his parents should have had him committed to sort out what was clearly going on.

Well, they may have been aware, but unable to do anything. Do we know of anything he had done that would have allowed them to force him into treatment of any kind? It sounds like there was quite a bit of warning, but nothing specific that could be used to commit him or have him arrested. I haven't even heard of a restraining order to keep him away from the girls he was accused of stalking - was there one?

Sometimes you just can't stop a determined person. My cousin's husband was suicidal. They all knew it, he was in treatment, they were watching his every move under the guidance of a therapist, and he did it anyway. He was just determined to die.

 

[Nova]

i totally agree, how can your child be so clearly disturbed and you not notice?

Granted, but there's a difference between "noticing" and predicting this result. Maybe they were concerned, maybe they did take action.

Who among us can honestly imagine that anyone we know will take up guns and kill 30+ people?

But if anyone is wondering: I'm sure the parents are suffering mightily now. Forgive me for generalizing, but Asian cultures tend to be shame-based and the actions of a child reflect greatly on the parents.

Even if they somehow contributed - through action or inaction - to this event, they are surely paying for it now.

 

[IrishMist]

i totally agree, how can your child be so clearly disturbed and you not notice? i live in boston and my parents in new york, and i was in the dumps for a while after a messy breakup -- and my parents spotted it almost automatically and kept pressing about what was wrong, etc. assuming there's at least a decent relationship, by 22 parents know their children and should know when something is wrong. unless the child is such a master of deception that no one knows. but here, random people saw he was disturbed -- how did his parents not know? unless they didn't care. just my opinion, but who is going to help a clearly disturbed middle school student besides his parents? please.

before anyone jumps, maybe its a cultural thing, maybe they figured he was just shy, etc etc, but i don't buy it in this case. it's not like other cases where there were no real warning signs and everyone says "i'm shocked, he/she seemed so normal" -- everyone seemed to notice this kid was messed up from day 1, and tried to get him help. his parents should have had him committed to sort out what was clearly going on.

Maybe they made sure he got help, saw that the medication appeared to be helping, and let their gaurd down? Maybe he was just quiet and kept to himself, playing a lot of video games while he was home? Maybe college put a strain on him, and the parents weren't there to see that?

I had a child that was very challenging to raise. Did I ever, even for a moment believe her to be a homicidal maniac? NO! What parent does that? What solid indicators were there when he was young? I understand wanting to blame someone for this, and the parents are easy targets. But he was a 23 year old college senior. At what point do you make someone responsible for themselves?

 

[Nova]

reading the play again, i didn't get the feeling that the stepfather actually did anything to the son -- more it seemed the son was so angry he was throwing any accusations he could at the stepfather. the stepfather seems to be on the defensive. besides being cruel to the mother - he didn't seem to act inappropriately to the son.

it seemed almost an oedipus complex that the son was jealous of the stepfather.

also, i don't really have issue with his cursing -- in "a heartbreaking work of staggering genius," for example, dave eggers writes totally freeform and curses really often -- it sounds as if a frustrated 20-something is actually narrating. but, the prose is well thought-out, well written, and quite moving. so i understand how writers can get "into" character. cho just seemed almost developmentally delayed in his writing - like an angry child, not a purposeful narrator. he seemed to want to curse just to curse, not to make his writing more "real."

then again, i know its not fair to compare a pulitzer prize nominated author with a crazed murderer. but its the clearest example that came to mind.

That's exactly how I read the playlet, casey. I even wondered if the assignment had been to rewrite Hamlet (a famous example of Oedipal conflict) in a modern context.

 

[angelwngs]

I agree and don't think the cable news channels are giving this tragedy too much coverage at all. Too many times there is a "breaking news story" that disappears after it happens and we never know anything about the follow-up. I also am very much interested in what led up to Cho committing such an aggregious act and I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know "why" this happened. And most of all, how it can be prevented in the future.

Another irony is that it happened within days of the anniversaries of other tragedies: Waco, Oklahoma City and Columbine.

BEFORE THE MASS KILLINGS AT VT: I began a thread over a week ago here at Websleuths, on the Up to The Minute Forum, days later thread was moved to Crimes in the News.

Its title was Breaking News in Jackson County Ga. It covered a local high school which was terrorized almost two weeks ago by a student who entered the school with a bomb strapped to his body. He was arrested and the bomb was exploded by bomb teams...

The following day our neighboring county received a system wide bomb threat. Our 991 dispatch, LE and School System miserably failed to communicate properly between themselves and the safety and well-being of our students and staff were greatly compromised.

As a former teacher, due to my inside knowlege of MANY previous failings of our system to properly handle similar situations, I saught help here in how to best respond to the issues at hand legally and confidentially.
Previously, I had gone through the proper channels within our system to no avail.

This time I knew the media must be involved to obtain any CHANGE in standard procedure when necessary to inact the system's Emergency Safety Plan.

During the first couple of hours following my post here at WS the thread received many, many 'hits' with NO replies.

I 'bit the bullet', and threw caution to the wind, knowing full well that my husband's business which is reliant on both the county government and the local school system could be greatly harmed by my passion to help the students and staff of our local school system remain safe.
I stayed up all night that night and wrote a letter to the editor of our local news paper. Monday morning I was on the phone with her for over an hour.

People often do not LISTEN. People often do not ACT. People often do not correct grevious ERRORS until AFTER A GREAT TRAGEDY.

Were it not for the extensive media coverage of this current VT tragedy and others like it, would people listen and act accordingly to try their best to prevent similar events from recurring?

I seriously doubt it.

I am thankful to the media for providing a VOICE that FORCES the PEOPLE to take their 'proverbial heads out of the sand' and to ACT.

Lord, help us. Have we as a society become so accustomed to violence against our children and the people in charge of their safety, well-being and educations that we must have 24/7 coverage by cable news stations to force us into action?

What has happened to us as a society?

Why must it take the masses of dead and injured bodies of students in one location to make us stand up, to make us listen and to force us to act upon what is our inherent basic instinct of self-preservation and nurturing as human-beings? :doh:

 

[IrishMist]

That's exactly how I read the playlet, casey. I even wondered if the assignment had been to rewrite Hamlet (a famous example of Oedipal conflict) in a modern context.

If that were the case, would it have so un-nerved the kid who provided them? He was freaked out enough by Cho that Cho was the first one he thought of when hearing about the shootings...

 

[Love_Mama]

I want to know what you guys think of this idea.............

I felt and still feel that immediately after the woman and attendent were shot around 7:15 in the morning, WHY the school waited so long tell the students about the shooting and the fact that both people were dead.

Now come on, I realize this Univ. is HUGE! 25,000 students, many in dorms and supposedly 9,000 students on their way to school. Like a small town.
They knew early in the morning that they had two dead people in another dorm, police were there, and all I've ever heard was that they thought the killer had fled the campus!

I live in San Diego CA, La Jolla to be exact. IF.........there is just a robbery or break-in........We've got hellicopters flying all over our area, back and forth, back and forth in a ten mile radius! Once they had a missing child from our local elementary and they were flying over AND making a LOUD announcement that a 9 yr. old was missing from La Jolla Elementary, told us what she was wearing, what color hair and height!

Here's is what I think campus's should do. College, High School, Elemementary schools. WE HAVE to do something!

Have a SIREN or SIREN'S in every school.


If this College had been able to turn on siren's throughout the campus this would mean to the students that something very dangerous was happening........or in this case, had happened. (the murders in the early morning). Stay in you dorm, lock the door to your room, if just coming to campus, leave as fast as possible.

So far, the only thing I've heard was that they thought the killer in the morning had fled! Jeeze, if you had two people murdered on your campus as early as 7:15 in the morning........wouldn't every person here immediately notify everyone else on campus? What were they thinking? :doh: :doh: :doh:

Those poor student's and teachers knew nothing until about 9:45 am, and it was too late!!!

My suggestion is to have siren's installed. All students would be given instruction's on what to do if they heard them. Any better suggestions?

xxxxxxxxooooo
mama
:blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss:

 

[angelwngs]

reading the play again, i didn't get the feeling that the stepfather actually did anything to the son -- more it seemed the son was so angry he was throwing any accusations he could at the stepfather. the stepfather seems to be on the defensive. besides being cruel to the mother - he didn't seem to act inappropriately to the son.

it seemed almost an oedipus complex that the son was jealous of the stepfather.

also, i don't really have issue with his cursing -- in "a heartbreaking work of staggering genius," for example, dave eggers writes totally freeform and curses really often -- it sounds as if a frustrated 20-something is actually narrating. but, the prose is well thought-out, well written, and quite moving. so i understand how writers can get "into" character. cho just seemed almost developmentally delayed in his writing - like an angry child, not a purposeful narrator. he seemed to want to curse just to curse, not to make his writing more "real."

then again, i know its not fair to compare a pulitzer prize nominated author with a crazed murderer. but its the clearest example that came to mind.

That's exactly how I read the playlet, casey. I even wondered if the assignment had been to rewrite Hamlet (a famous example of Oedipal conflict) in a modern context.

I agree 100%.

 

[angelwngs]

If that were the case, would it have so un-nerved the kid who provided them? He was freaked out enough by Cho that Cho was the first one he thought of when hearing about the shootings...

I think it was the combination of written words and extreme anti-social behavior that unnerved students and faculty and rightfully so, IMO.

 

[IrishMist]

I think it was the combination of written words and extreme anti-social behavior that unnerved students and faculty and rightfully so, IMO.

I would have to agree, angel.

 

[panthera]

I can't really say I agree with the blame being placed on the parents. The man is 23 years old, has been at college for at least four years. Do we even know that he kept in close contact with them? He's of age, and responsible for his own actions.

True, he is an adult and has been in college for four years but his parents aren't that far away so he must have gone home to see them. Another thing is it seems he has had problems for years, long before he went to VA Tech. I don't blame them entirely, but somewhere along the line help should've been gotten for him before this happened. It's really unfortunate that charges weren't pressed regarding the stalking incident ~ 32 innocent people might be alive today.