Vass deposition

[karengo]

Before reading this depo I just thought JB was not the sharpest kife in the drawer...now I have proof.

 

[Mamabear1963]

I am going to attempt to read through this...

You know, one positive...May 9th is just around the corner!!!

 

[LancelotLink]

Oh, the irony...JA objects to a question and JB tells him he can't coach the witness on whether or not to answer a question, since Dr. Vass had his own attorney. I went back and read it again, but the words "Zip It" never sprang forth from the pages of the deposition.

 

[coopzoo]

One word comes to mind when reading the DT's exchanges with JA during this depo:

Infantile.

:loser:


MOO

 

[repairmom]

Reply With Quote

Seriously, JB is asking Dr. Vass how he knows that freezing a body or an animal would arrest decomp?
Gee, JB I suppose we all learn that at some point in our lives, and that's why we store our steaks and pork chops in the fridge or the freezer, and not in the pantry!
Reply With Quote

Good one!!! Jose, give it up! :loser:

 

[coopzoo]

Vass = pure charm

He is the cutest darn thing with his honest reactions to the questions...and the "duh" comment was the BEST.

 

[BigFatMommyDog]

Oh man, Jayla.....now I have an image in my head of that old Rico Suave video, only this time, instead of a cute barechested guy...I have BAEZ in my head! :banghead:

...so does he Kentjbkent, so does he...

 

[K9Snoop]

I'm not the sharpest tack in the pack, so maybe one of you can help me out.

In the depo they are discussing the patent and the money, etc: Considering Dr Vass won't be getting very much, why did Baez question Vass about it at the Frye hearing? I do get what Baez was trying to show, but Dr Vass won't even make Baez's fee of 250,000 that he made off KC - it seems just plain silly for Baez to imply that Dr Vass is eager for the machine to be used so he can make $$$, because from what I've understood, Dr Vass' $ return vs the work would be peanuts.

If anything, Dr Vass wants the machine to be used because like every scientist before him, he wants the name recognition that comes with contributing to the advancement of technology, and there's nothing wrong with that. Thank goodness that scientists compete with and review each other.

All my own opinions.

Dr Vass has been working on this machine for years. One of the perennial problems is that at present time no machine has been devised that can compete with the speed and flexibility of the canine nose. However, the perennial defense manuever is that since they can't put the dog on the stand for cross examination, determine exactly what the dog is smelling and indicating on then its junk science. However if Dr. Vass' machine works then once the dog locates a spot and alerts, they can then go over the area and get a sample of air or whatever. Then this analysis is something that you can actually show a jury. Physical evidence that is not reliant on a dog's say-so. And if this machine is accepted at this trial then 1) it will not have to undergo another Frye hearing and 2) other forensic departments will probably add it to their arsenal of tools. Which would translate to a financial incentive for Dr Vass. However, I do not feel that Dr Vass spent years doing this for financial incentive. I think his scientific curiosity and need to know sent him down this road.

 

[Baznme]

Dr Vass has been working on this machine for years. One of the perennial problems is that at present time no machine has been devised that can compete with the speed and flexibility of the canine nose. However, the perennial defense manuever is that since they can't put the dog on the stand for cross examination, determine exactly what the dog is smelling and indicating on then its junk science. However if Dr. Vass' machine works then once the dog locates a spot and alerts, they can then go over the area and get a sample of air or whatever. Then this analysis is something that you can actually show a jury. Physical evidence that is not reliant on a dog's say-so. And if this machine is accepted at this trial then 1) it will not have to undergo another Frye hearing and 2) other forensic departments will probably add it to their arsenal of tools. Which would translate to a financial incentive for Dr Vass. However, I do not feel that Dr Vass spent years doing this for financial incentive. I think his scientific curiosity and need to know sent him down this road.

JB's excruciating questioning of Dr. Vass last week was IMO redundant as it was obvious that JB was not aware of how patents work when you are an employee of an organization such as The University of Tennessee's Forensic Anthropology Center, (i.e., the body farm).

For info purposes, here is the link to the University.

http://fac.utk.edu/

Generally, when you work for an institution like this, anything you may patent becomes what they call "propietary" and is actually under the ownership of the institution. You get a one time payment (which is generally around $1000.00) for the invention and any royalties that may come of it goes strictly to the institution. So, JB's attempt at maneuvering the public to believe Dr. Vass would get rich on this patent is absurd. Also, IMO, that display was just another notch in the belt of the prosecution side. The jury will see this lack of understanding on the defense's side.

 

[Turnadot]

Dr Vass has been working on this machine for years. One of the perennial problems is that at present time no machine has been devised that can compete with the speed and flexibility of the canine nose. However, the perennial defense manuever is that since they can't put the dog on the stand for cross examination, determine exactly what the dog is smelling and indicating on then its junk science. However if Dr. Vass' machine works then once the dog locates a spot and alerts, they can then go over the area and get a sample of air or whatever. Then this analysis is something that you can actually show a jury. Physical evidence that is not reliant on a dog's say-so. And if this machine is accepted at this trial then 1) it will not have to undergo another Frye hearing and 2) other forensic departments will probably add it to their arsenal of tools. Which would translate to a financial incentive for Dr Vass. However, I do not feel that Dr Vass spent years doing this for financial incentive. I think his scientific curiosity and need to know sent him down this road.

I agree, because if it's $$$$$ he wants, then he chose the wrong profession. From what I understand, Dr Vass doesn't own the patent and it's the patent holder who would reap most of the $$$ benefits. Dr Vass won't make money hand over fist - not even Baez's legal representation fee.

IMO, Baez's questions to Dr Vass about the monetary compnsation comes from the fact that to Baez, money is his goal, so he assumes it's the goal for everyone else, too. He can't conceive that Dr Vass' incentive is his passion for his work; it's a labour of love.

That's something Baez can't relate to.

My opinions only.

 

[seagull65]

just catching up on the March hearings,
I loved this witness when the prosecutor was questioning him, but then I was really surprised to see his change of tone and attitude during defense questioning, I was really surprised he could get away with refusing to answer so many straightforward questions, or that he would even want to do that. Like about the chloroform, he expounded on the subject of the chloroform for the prosecution, but then when the defense asked about the chloroform signature found on one of the control samples (from a carpet sample from another car) he wouldn't answer, wouldn't confirm or deny, kept saying it wasn't relevant to speak about one compound on its own, etc. It went on and on for ages with his, oh I can't recall, oh I wouldn't know how to answer that, oh let me talk some more about my other study, etc. What? The question was: "wasn't chloroform also present in the air signature from one of the control samples/carpet sample from one of the other cars?" He also wouldn't answer the defense's question of whether he'd accounted for any chemical contribution to the scent from the other items that had been in the trunk (the various garbage items etc). I didn't know a witness could just not answer questions like that. Unless in the very end he finally did answer some of these and I am just not there yet, but what I already watched went on for ages with these questions unanswered LOL

 

[seagull65]

Dr Vass has been working on this machine for years. One of the perennial problems is that at present time no machine has been devised that can compete with the speed and flexibility of the canine nose. However, the perennial defense manuever is that since they can't put the dog on the stand for cross examination, determine exactly what the dog is smelling and indicating on then its junk science. However if Dr. Vass' machine works then once the dog locates a spot and alerts, they can then go over the area and get a sample of air or whatever. Then this analysis is something that you can actually show a jury. Physical evidence that is not reliant on a dog's say-so. And if this machine is accepted at this trial then 1) it will not have to undergo another Frye hearing and 2) other forensic departments will probably add it to their arsenal of tools. Which would translate to a financial incentive for Dr Vass. However, I do not feel that Dr Vass spent years doing this for financial incentive. I think his scientific curiosity and need to know sent him down this road.

I agree. That is a problem though that his organization can't release their raw data etc to the defense because it's proprietary--in that case there isn't any way for the defense to have it independently evaluated. Did I hear right, were they saying the instrument is called "The Labrador" ? or was that my imagination

 

[Phumi]

Mr. Baez: Dr. Vass, do you walk to work or bring your lunch?

Dr. Vass: I, I don't even know how to answer that.

Mr. Baez: I'll rephrase. Have you ever walked to work.

Dr. Vass: Well, yes.

Mr. Baez: So you don't deny that your wife often packs you a lunch.

Dr. Vass: She sometimes does.

Mr. Baez: Then why were you seen DRIVING to a restaurant for lunch today Dr.,
Hmmmm?

Dr. Vass: Huh?

Mr. Baez: Just answer yes or no.

Dr. Vass: What?

Mr. Baez: Judge will you please instruct the witness to respond.

His Honor: Mr. Baez...

Mr. Baez: I'll withdraw the question.

Mr. Baez: Dr. Vass, where did you have lunch today?

Dr. Vass: Chick-Fil-A.

Mr. Baez: So you admit a tuna sandwhich can smell exactly like human decomposition....


ARRRRGGHHH!!!!

 

[Lera213]

I have always had a hard time understanding and following a scientific expert witness however Dr. Vass is an exception, I was able to follow, understand, and it really helped me to see the bigger picture.

I'm not of a higher educated person, I'm a mother of 4 boys, who is a retired Military Mom. I have a lot of common sense but little academia knowledge.

So, if the average jurist is like me....DT is in big freaking trouble.

 

[RR0004]

I don't think so! :floorlaugh: Look at the difference between this depo and JB at the Frye hearing. Clearly the DT needed LKB. I can't get the image of Dr. Vass throwing his arms up and that face at the very end and he says something like yeah, ok whatever as he seems to be looking at the Judge and JA. JB doesn't have a clue what to even ask that's why he can't stick to Frye issues. I'm curious why no one particularly the defense has not brought up the gas cans in the trunk? I know they would have left some serious fumes. Scott Peterson was actually successful in covering up the odor of decomp. on a tarp with gas from a weed eater and fertilizer. I have always wondered if Casey tried to use gas to mask or kill the odor of decomp. I know for a fact you are not supposed to have gas cans in your trunk. My niece did that with my daughter in her car and she got really sick from the fumes penetrating into the passenger area. I was very upset because I thought everyone knew that.

I just got the chance to listen to last week's hearings and he does mention the gasoline in reference to compounds found.

 

[RR0004]

just catching up on the March hearings,
I loved this witness when the prosecutor was questioning him, but then I was really surprised to see his change of tone and attitude during defense questioning, I was really surprised he could get away with refusing to answer so many straightforward questions, or that he would even want to do that. Like about the chloroform, he expounded on the subject of the chloroform for the prosecution, but then when the defense asked about the chloroform signature found on one of the control samples (from a carpet sample from another car) he wouldn't answer, wouldn't confirm or deny, kept saying it wasn't relevant to speak about one compound on its own, etc. It went on and on for ages with his, oh I can't recall, oh I wouldn't know how to answer that, oh let me talk some more about my other study, etc. What? The question was: "wasn't chloroform also present in the air signature from one of the control samples/carpet sample from one of the other cars?" He also wouldn't answer the defense's question of whether he'd accounted for any chemical contribution to the scent from the other items that had been in the trunk (the various garbage items etc). I didn't know a witness could just not answer questions like that. Unless in the very end he finally did answer some of these and I am just not there yet, but what I already watched went on for ages with these questions unanswered LOL

I see your point...but I wouldn't imagine there would be a strong odor signature of the closed bag of garbage. As far as the other questions, well, very smart people oftentimes can't tolerate stupid questions...and I'm not making that up, I just took a Personality Course. I got the impression...that as nice as Dr. Vass seemed...he thought JB was just an annoying little gnat. He could relate better to JA because he's aware that Ashton knows his stuff. JMHO

 

[Just Jayla]

just catching up on the March hearings,
I loved this witness when the prosecutor was questioning him, but then I was really surprised to see his change of tone and attitude during defense questioning, I was really surprised he could get away with refusing to answer so many straightforward questions, or that he would even want to do that. Like about the chloroform, he expounded on the subject of the chloroform for the prosecution, but then when the defense asked about the chloroform signature found on one of the control samples (from a carpet sample from another car) he wouldn't answer, wouldn't confirm or deny, kept saying it wasn't relevant to speak about one compound on its own, etc. It went on and on for ages with his, oh I can't recall, oh I wouldn't know how to answer that, oh let me talk some more about my other study, etc. What? The question was: "wasn't chloroform also present in the air signature from one of the control samples/carpet sample from one of the other cars?" He also wouldn't answer the defense's question of whether he'd accounted for any chemical contribution to the scent from the other items that had been in the trunk (the various garbage items etc). I didn't know a witness could just not answer questions like that. Unless in the very end he finally did answer some of these and I am just not there yet, but what I already watched went on for ages with these questions unanswered LOL

Under other circumstances I might agree, but keeping in mind the chronological order of the depo-It started out fine with LKB, very cordial. But she pretty much went straight into a line of questioning that was aimed at getting to the point that he stood only to make money off of this.
After that opening line of questioning, it starts to become a little insulting, as if he may be biased because of the almighty dollar, or that he is a snake oil salesman. May have worked out better if they saved that patent stuff for later on.
Remember, too, that he has an attorney that has advised him-That attorney may have instructed his client ahead of time that the defense was going to try to question his professional integrity. While he seemed to have gone into it with an open mind, well...question a doctor or a lawyer's work, suggest they are in it solely for the money, and you probably get the same reaction that a well-studied scientist has. Docs, laywers and scientists are trained through a process of immersion that can be very painful to the ego yet designed to build up an uber-ego, a bar set to the level of perfection, and trained to understand that every word, every single word written or said, has a distinct meaning.
His lawyer's advice or just the tone of the meeting with the state may have suggested his ego was not going to be assaulted.
Having watched quantum physicists argue over theory (See the Ben Stein movie Expelled), scientists can get very testy over this stuff. Considering how the scientists behaved in that movie, Dr. Vass was a peach!

 

[RR0004]

Under other circumstances I might agree, but keeping in mind the chronological order of the depo-It started out fine with LKB, very cordial. But she pretty much went straight into a line of questioning that was aimed at getting to the point that he stood only to make money off of this.
After that opening line of questioning, it starts to become a little insulting, as if he may be biased because of the almighty dollar, or that he is a snake oil salesman. May have worked out better if they saved that patent stuff for later on.
Remember, too, that he has an attorney that has advised him-That attorney may have instructed his client ahead of time that the defense was going to try to question his professional integrity. While he seemed to have gone into it with an open mind, well...question a doctor or a lawyer's work, suggest they are in it solely for the money, and you probably get the same reaction that a well-studied scientist has. Docs, laywers and scientists are trained through a process of immersion that can be very painful to the ego yet designed to build up an uber-ego, a bar set to the level of perfection, and trained to understand that every word, every single word written or said, has a distinct meaning.
His lawyer's advice or just the tone of the meeting with the state may have suggested his ego was not going to be assaulted.
Having watched quantum physicists argue over theory (See the Ben Stein movie Expelled), scientists can get very testy over this stuff. Considering how the scientists behaved in that movie, Dr. Vass was a peach!

I was insulted for the man. These guys at Oak Ridge are pure genius. They are their work. I realize he had to testify, but the line of questioning made even me feel dirty.

 

[K9Snoop]

I'm currently reading Dr. Vass' depo. I'm only up to page 57 of a 187 page document but what fascinating reading. I started to laugh on Page 54 on the Baez/Ashton stoneface argument. I did note that at the start of the depo, Dr Vass was not asked his education, qualifications, area of expertise, where they work, etc which JB asked of the Canadian Dr. Why is that?

I notice that JB tends to ask questions with multiple parts or questions that are outside of Vass' area of expertise or questions that rightly should be asked of that particular subject authority. aka a chemical engineer or electrical engineer. I love the way AV makes JB rephrase the question to be sure exactly what JB is asking for. This rambling, disjointed questioning appears to be a classic JB technique since I saw the same thing during his questioning of the FBI hair analysis lady.

 

[Joanner]

I didn't know where else to put this question, so will post it here.

Today, I was reading on some web site (visited a lot of web sites today, so cannot pinpoint which one it was) that Dr. Vass did not use his "sniffer machine" (LABRADOR) in this case.

Does anyone know if that is correct?