Verdict: GUILTY for both Millard and Smich of 1st degree murder #2

[otto]

The overall scenario needs to be speculated based on the points of factual evidence (the scenario needs to connect the dots beyond a reasonable doubt). Paraphrasing Judge Goodman, very few scenarios can be proven with absolute certainty.

That facts that we can work with are those presented in court. There is evidence that one gun was used. We can speculate that there were 10 guns, but there is evidence of one, so why would be speculate that there are 10 guns?

 

[canadiangirl]

Where is there reasonable doubt regarding their joint participation in the planning, and execution of a carjacking, murder, and concealment of the criminal activity?

This has been discussed many many times by various people who see reasonable doubt. I believe rehashing at this point is rather moot

 

[marymcd]

I know all about the theories why Igor was spared. But I am still of the belief guns beat humans, no matter the size or intimidations of another human being. One or 2 armed men vs one unarmed male? 2 against one with one or 2 guns are pretty good odds IMO

Personally, I would turn down any potential confrontation with anyone with Israeli army experience even if I were a competent military member from anywhere else, but I am thinking that knowledge of the GPS would have to have been a factor in their decision, along with all of the other points mentioned.

 

[otto]

That does sound logical. Another question, if the admissibility of evidence is argued with all lawyers present is it not then accepted by all as admissible evidence?

Sometimes there is a voir dire during a trial to determine whether evidence is admissible. If the judge determines that the evidence is admissible, then the jury will hear the evidence. Both the prosecution and defence can appeal a verdict based on that ruling if they can justify that the ruling violated the rights of the crown/accused. That is, the evidence is accepted for the purposes of the trial, but the prosecution and the defence lawyer can challenge that ruling in an appeal.

 

[SnooperDuper]

IMHO, these guys had MWJ on speed dial- DM had enough moola he could have had a gun for every designer holster he owned. What they had with them and how they used it is totally irrelevant now- truck loads of evidence has been sealed for a long time, never to be spoken about at this trial in front of this Jury, yet this Jury could still connect the dots between DM and MS to render their guilty verdicts. Heck, either DM or MS's story could be correct- I'm sure there's some truth in both of them, but what does it matter at this point- it'll be up to the appeals process.

Once again, I'm one of the ones who had a double take on MS's involvement. It wasn't until I took a very close look at the facts that I was finally able to see that MS had my sympathies because I viewed him as the underdog. After looking at everything thoroughly, I came to the conclusion that DM and MS were joined at the hip and were in this together. One of the big things was the absence of prints from MS. I'd suggest that he had gloves on and maybe that's why he had his hands in his pockets. If anything could have ruined it for the pair it would have been MS's prints on anything- between the two of them, those are the only prints that could have got them snagged. Even MS's phone dying??? I seriously doubt that and I seriously doubt that the Yukon didn't have a phone charger in it because DM was on the road so much. His phone didn't die. They thought they had it figured out and I think they almost did. IT remembered the tattoo- and that was just as good as fingerprints in identifying DM. MOO

My guess is that MWJ was not just a source of gun, but the cocaine DM and LB and pals were said to use. So speed dial, yeah. I am sure they were in touch regularly.

MS was more than an underdog to me...he was a groupie and a parasite, because everything in his life centered on DM and he fed and lived off of DM's money and ideas.

Somehow I can imagine DM and MS watching the seal-skinned-alive video DM's mom shot and howling with laughter. I think they are that kind of guys. Angry and cruel.

DM was angry because he wasn't born into a fairytale: there was money, but his parents were failures and he failed to connect with worthwhile people in society.

MS was angry because he never got any traction in life, in school, in work, and in relationships (we never heard of anyone before MM).

They are just a pair of cruel and angry b******s who are going to be surrounded by thousands of their same type in prison.

 

[canadiangirl]

I think that's a somewhat different situation but I'm not a lawyer. Evidence which ties directly to a weapon purchased for other murders seems to be inadmissible (the Iisho text which might have been due to timing), but evidence that MS was involved in incinerator selection relates to his role in preparing for a murder coverup in general. The incinerator was clearly central to the TB case, but the particular gun referred to in the Iisho text was not?

It can be said the incinerator evidence was also purchased for another murder though as well.

 

[otto]

This has been discussed many many times by various people who see reasonable doubt. I believe rehashing at this point is rather moot

If there is reasonable doubt about whether Smich was in the vehicle when Tim was carjacked, or whether he was there when Tim was murdered and incinerated, I would like to hear more about it. However, if there is no doubt that Smich willingly participated in the abduction, murder, and incineration of Tim, and then willingly participated in concealing those criminal activities, there is no reasonable doubt that he and any other participating parties should be convicted of first degree murder.

That Smich had less money than Millard, or that Millard seemed to have more leadership qualities, are not relevant to whether Smich willingly participated in the criminal activities. Whether Smich provided the gun and Millard fired the first shot, or vice versa doesn't really matter. They made a plan together, and they executed it together. Now they will rot in prison together.

 

[SnooperDuper]

It can be said the incinerator evidence was also purchased for another murder though as well.

I agree, "as well", not "instead".

 

[marymcd]

Speculation has played a huge part in a murder conviction. Because it's all we have. That and interpretation of premeditation.

As I said, I'm willing to change my opinion once the evidence on LB comes out.

And just to be clear, does MS loser status come into play because that is what the courts allowed to be seen? What we didn't see was DM was also a druggie loser if we're going there that has been attention seeking since he was a child eating dog biscuits in school. He is also a high school drop out, sold drugs, used them, used the hanger for a chop shop and suicide girls which is soft exploiting women. Except that wasn't allowed for the pretty boy millionaire persona.

This wasn't allowed, but might have been if the crime was rape and murder of a female, rather than theft of truck and murder of owner.

In terms of drug use and dealing, wasn't it said in effect the judge didn't want the trial to become side-tracked on the whole drug abuse issue. I believe SS said that the chop shop was still under investigation while on the stand, so there may be more to come on that issue, and other than those items, all that's left is eating dog biscuits as an attention seeking child.

 

[Miranda16]

That facts that we can work with are those presented in court. There is evidence that one gun was used. We can speculate that there were 10 guns, but there is evidence of one, so why would be speculate that there are 10 guns?

How does that question follow from my post?

 

[otto]

It can be said the incinerator evidence was also purchased for another murder though as well.

In addition to Millard's father and his girlfriend?

It does seem obvious that Millard and Smich were convinced that they could murder anyone they wanted and get away with it. It is very unfortunate that the murder of Millard's father wasn't properly investigated. Purchasing an incinerator for murder victims probably seemed like a good investment after the second murder and before the third murder and yes, it is very likely that many more people would be murdered if these two men were not stopped after Tim's murder.

 

[canadiangirl]

This wasn't allowed, but might have been if the crime was rape and murder of a female, rather than theft of truck and murder of owner.

But we were allowed to hear MS suggested stripping to his gf in the theft of a truck and murder of the owner. So what exactly is the difference?

 

[Abitcountry]

This is my first experience following a trial right through to the end. I have followed along for three years now on WS and I have no idea what happens once a trial has ended......How long does the conversation continue? Will Noudga's trial be linked to this one or will it be a whole new thread? Do we simply have to keep checking back in November?? Can I still use the private message feature to stay in touch with a friend? ...and so the list goes.

 

[Miranda16]

It can be said the incinerator evidence was also purchased for another murder though as well.

Maybe but it contained the remains of a male under age 40 and had a stain with TB's DNA. The gun referenced in the Iisho text may not have been demonstrably related to the TB case. I'm just guessing and I don't know enough to agree with the concept of withholding evidence. IMO everything relevant should be on the table.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Someone may have already pointed this out. My apologies if they already have. The crown didn't play or even refer to Smich's rap music other than possibly what was contained in texts. It was Sachak who played them during cross and Pillay who spoke about them in closing. The judge's charge repeatedly instructed the jury to specifically ignore among other things, references to rap.

Ok well Pillay then. Point being, the rap lyrics on their own were kinda of damning. MS rapping them on video down played them...he looked and sounded silly!

 

[JuneBug67]

Junebug you've summarized everything very nicely IMO. I'm also open to changing my mind once the LB trial comes, however at this point we don't know the evidence in the other case.

Therefore based on this case alone, I see a guy who was a follower, who was manipulated by his "brother" just like every single person in his circle including his own family members to his own advantage no matter the cost. DM courtroom antics lend credibility all on their own to his instability and self destruction.

It's interesting...I'm not sure I think of MS as a follower at this point, particularly after his testimony where he held his own in a tough situation. *Everybody*, regardless or intelligence or strength of personality, is vulnerable to being manipulated and exploited by a psychopath and/or narcissist. They are playing a different game by different rules and "normal" people, as is the point, just can't see it until they're looking in retrospect with more information available to them. Looked at critically it's clear to me that DM got way more out of MS than MS got out of him, which should surprise nobody. It's the way it works with these types. DM got a criminal partner and occasional cheap labour that assisted him in securing equipment and items for his own use or resale that were valued in the tens of thousands of dollars, at the very least. MS sometimes got food, sometimes a place to stay, a crappy cell phone for a time, small amounts of money, an iPad (LBs?), a pair of shoes....trinkets and trivia really in the big picture....and a whole lot of big promises about bases and studios and Caddys that never came to be. MS didn't have a car or a license, which was another way DM controlled time and access. MS didn't go to the big parties at Maplegate, he didn't go to Baha or Croatia or to the British Virgin Islands on a couples vacations. DM purchased people with their own dreams and fears and emotional needs, as is common with psychopaths, who never give more than they have to to accomplish what they want.

And I agree completely: DM's court behaviour, culminating in the stare-down of Sharlene, revealed the severity of his personality disorder in a way that could still surprise even me, who had him pegged as a psychopath from the moment his jailhouse interview and letter to "Dee" was published. I would never make the mistake of underestimating what roiled in his head or what he was independently capable of.

 

[canadiangirl]

Ok well Pillay then. Point being, the rap lyrics on their own were kinda of damning. MS rapping them on video down played them...he looked and sounded silly!

But let's not forget how the very last still of the video which people interpreted made MS look menacing was left on the screen and published in the media. It's bound to help form or confirm someone's opinion.

 

[otto]

How does that question follow from my post?

Conjecture is necessary when the crown attempts to understand, and present, how a murder occurred. The crown can only work with the facts of the case, and does not speculate that there were five guns if there is evidence of one. The crown does not speculate on anything. They present the facts that are available, and thread that evidence together in a logical framework that results in an understanding of what took place. The jury is asked to make a conclusion or inference based on evidence. That is the nature of the circumstantial case, and pretty much every murder case is based on circumstantial evidence. Drawing a conclusion based on facts in evidence is not the same as speculating about what may not be in evidence.

 

[otto]

This is my first experience following a trial right through to the end. I have followed along for three years now on WS and I have no idea what happens once a trial has ended......How long does the conversation continue? Will Noudga's trial be linked to this one or will it be a whole new thread? Do we simply have to keep checking back in November?? Can I still use the private message feature to stay in touch with a friend? ...and so the list goes.

There will be a new discussion thread for the next related trial. The private message feature is available as long as you are a member of the forum.

 

[canadiangirl]

It's interesting...I'm not sure I think of MS as a follower at this point, particularly after his testimony where he held his own in a tough situation. *Everybody*, regardless or intelligence or strength of personality, is vulnerable to being manipulated and exploited by a psychopath and/or narcissist. They are playing a different game by different rules and "normal" people, as is the point, just can't see it until they're looking in retrospect with more information available to them. Looked at critically it's clear to me that DM got way more out of MS than MS got out of him, which should surprise nobody. It's the way it works with these types. DM got a criminal partner and occasional cheap labour that assisted him in securing equipment and items for his own use or resale that were valued in the tens of thousands of dollars, at the very least. MS sometimes got food, sometimes a place to stay, a crappy cell phone for a time, small amounts of money, an iPad (LBs?), a pair of shoes....trinkets and trivia really in the big picture....and a whole lot of big promises about bases and studios and Caddys that never came to be. MS didn't have a car or a license, which was another way DM controlled time and access. MS didn't go to the big parties at Maplegate, he didn't go to Baha or Croatia or to the British Virgin Islands on a couples vacations. DM purchased people with their own dreams and fears and emotional needs, as is common with psychopaths, who never give more than they have to to accomplish what they want.

And I agree completely: DM's court behaviour, culminating in the stare-down of Sharlene, revealed the severity of his personality disorder in a way that could still surprise even me, who had him pegged as a psychopath from the moment his jailhouse interview and letter to "Dee" was published. I would never make the mistake of underestimating what roiled in his head or what he was independently capable of.

IMO you are bang on. Follower was perhaps the wrong word in that I felt he was manipulated just as you stated.