Verdict Suggests Juries are Tired of Theoretical Justice & Circumstancial Evidence

[logicalgirl]

They also tuned out when ICA's ex boyfriend stated that Caylee slept in bed between them!

And left her closed in on a balcony while she was in the bedroom with her boyfriend.

 

[sherryk]

I find it odd that the jury never passed any notes to be clarified by the Judge .. or at least that I have heard reported. The very short time to reach a verdict. It seems they did everything EXCEPT follow instructions. A few of the jurors left notebook behind.
IMO they had their mind made up before they entered the room to decide. I wonder which juror DID leave their notebook behind. IMO the chef who is looking for money to interview was most likley one of them.

Still sick over this. I cant help but be upset with the jury.. it was way to quick to go over evidence and the circumstances.
I wonder if any of them thought for ONE minute.. what if my child drowned what would I or any reasonable or unreasonable person do... that right there say quilt!

 

[amysmom]

The jurors had that list of instructions and the Judge was available to the jury at any time if they had questions or needed further clarification.

Didn't "get" it is not excuse.

ITA! The problem was they all thought they "got" it when they really didn't & why ask the judge anything when the few that even took notes left them behind as if they were meaningless.

The judge truly has to know for sure whether they "get" it or not without leaving it up to the jury to claim they do when they obviously don't..What the solution is I wish I knew.

 

[tink92]

I think part of the problem is that television crime dramas solve the whole case at the end of the program. People have gotten used to the whole case wrapped up neatly with all the details solved in one hour.

Yes...Have you noticed the killer ALWAYS confesses at the end of the show...ALWAYS...so that it can wrapped up neatly.

Seems some people think no confession means not guilty...because that is what they have been programmed to subconciously believe..if they watch..The Mentalist, Castle, Etc Etc Etc.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I agree Judge Perry did not read the jurors instructions very well i kind of tuned him out also... He is at fault also in this,,,,,JMO

he could have made it all very clear and easy to understand..

How do you suggest he could have made it clearer and easier to understand? Trim it down? Use different wording?He was probably limited to a great degree by the fact of leaving things open to an appeal if there had been a conviction.

 

[aeneas1]

The writer of this article is ridiculously sophomoric. Every prosecutor would love that every crime came accompanied by a crystal clear video and ample DNA. Reality says that most murders of children are committed clandestinely. People don't generally go to the public playground to kill their kids.

I agree with you that we expect more today because we have all experienced the indiscreet, the violence, the flat out obscene that is put out there by the readiness of cell phones and the abundance of surveillance cameras. Does this fact mean that we should simply never again try to hold a person responsible if concrete direct evidence doesn't exist? If a criminal is lucky enough or smart enough to eliminate evidence or hides a body until it disintegrates, do we simply say huhum, can't getcha?

Nothing excuses this particular jury's collective lack of due diligence in discharging their civic duty. Add to that their collective lack of understanding the judge's orders, which clearly told them that opening statements were not evidence. JB presented no evidence of a drowning and a coverup. GA denied the scenerio, plainly and emphatically as he did when asked about the alleged molestation.

I have always held that the death penalty should not be sought in cases with circumstantial evidence only. I am perfectly satisfied with with a sentence of LWOP. However, the death of Caylee Marie Anthony was replete with incriminating evidence from her murderer however indirect it may have been.

The sole problem here was in selecting jurors who lacked the intelligence and common sense to apply the law or to follow instructions. This above all worries me because if they are any indication of the "average" juror, our criminal justice system is dire straits indeed.

well put....

heck, if you polled the jurors i'm sure you would find that many feel there's sufficient evidence to believe ufo's have visited earth, as is the case with tens of millions of americans, yet there's wasn't enough evidence to convict ica? beautiful.

 

[AnaTeresa]

While I disagree with many on this thread about the jury, and video taping jurors, I don't think things are perfect. I know there has been a push to streamline jury instructions and place them into plain English. Here in Ohio, for example, if you have been charged with two counts of a certain crime, they read the instructions for that crime twice. It's redundant, can confuse the jury, and causes them to drift off. Studies show that jurors can only listen to about 7-8 minutes of speech before drifting off, unless something is done (i.e. presentation of a video, picture, introducing testimony, etc.) to catch their attention and have them refocus once more.

Ultimately, I think our jury system is fair, even if it isn't perfect. I know the internet is a bubble and doesn't reflect real life, but I would hate for people to be discouraged even more from serving on a jury because of the torch-and-pitchfork mentality against this jury.

 

[Chilly Willy]

"THE CASEY Anthony verdict made one thing perfectly clear: Juries are tired of theoretical justice and circumstantial evidence.

http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2011/072011/07082011/637652/index_html?page=1

I dont agree with the opinion expressed by the aurthor entirely. I do think as a society we do except more in court then before but is that because we are tired of theorectical justice and circumstantial evidence or because we as a society have more diverse experience than jurors once had? The world is much more open and transparent then before (cell phone, computers, gps's and facebook) that we believe proof should be easy to obtain?

Everyone has had a court room experience or a traffic infraction or needed a lawyer, do these things reflect on jury duty in court cases at trial in the way of needing a higher standard of evidence?

That article has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.

"I would never convict someone based on circumstantial evidence. Somebody whom I deem reliable is going to have to testify that he saw the crime committed before I'm going to help send someone to prison or have them executed."

The author would only vote to convict those murderers who kill in front of witnesses, all those pesky secretive murders would walk free, and how dare the state even put them on trial!!!

 

[tink92]

ITA! The problem was they all thought they "got" it when they really didn't & why ask the judge anything when the few that even took notes left them behind as if they were meaningless.

The judge truly has to know for sure whether they "get" it or not without leaving it up to the jury to claim they do when they obviously don't..What the solution is I wish I knew.

Yes...You only have to watch Jennifer fords interview to realise that she aCTUALLY believes they did a good job!!.....She thinks she understood just fine thank you very much. I detect an air of arrogance about her. She will sleep just fine she says???:maddening:

When the reality is she is NOWHERE near as smart as her ego would lead her to believe.

 

[Dragonlady]

And left her closed in on a balcony while she was in the bedroom with her boyfriend.

Huh?
I don't remember that, maybe my mind blocked it out in a fit of anger at the though of Caylee being scared and alone on a balcony, seriously every piece of evidence presented showed that ICA was a terrible and disinterested mother.

 

[joypath]

Thank you for this - I'm late to the thread and was sitting here pondering the statement regarding what made people assume the duct tape was on her face when the skull was so decomposed - and was quite "in awe" at the statement.

And yes, the duct tape had to be cut out of Caylee's hair on each side of her face, even after six months of skeletonization, animals pulling the remains apart and being submerged in swamp water for weeks during the flood.

I also want to point out that this jury was not there to decide on the death penalty. Even for a guilty decision on the most serious charge, the option was there for LWOP. But this part of the trial was only to decide guilt or innocence on the three charges. The penalty phase is the second part of the trial.

The jury doesn't even decide on death. There are laws in place for this decision, and during the penalty phase, after deliberating all the aggravating and mitigating factors, they make a recommendation. But the judge has the final decision.

And they got "stuck" on cause of death. The prosecution does not have to prove either cause of death, or motive. But there is no way around it - if you have the number 4, there are a wide range of numbers that can add or subtract to arrive at the number. But the final equation can never be 0+0+0=4.

In other words ICA was completely innocent despite all the scientific evidence, but Caylee was still duct taped, dead, and thrown in a swamp like garbage.

Again, another cohesive, thoughtful statement and the BBM comment reaches into another realm of discussion, that being.......WHY was it necessary for FCA/still ICA to LIE to law enforcement, her parents & brother, and the WORLD at large? To cover up an accident? To protect her father, the man she so claims NOW to despise, from the charge of improper disposal of a body?
:twocents: IMHO, the jury stopped short of analyzing data/information and were merely trying to play a "connect the dots" game with the justice system. As stated by many, the jury as a whole did NOT comprehend the gravity of their CHARGE, not just the gravity of the ultimate penalty that accused MIGHT receive.

The article quoted makes it crystal clear that the abundance of "pop" culture experiences of individuals clouds analytical thought and reasoning skills.:banghead: 1 + 1 does not equal 2 "always" in the vernacular and neither does (scientific notation) 1.0 + 1.0 = 2.0 when one eliminates accurate & precise evaluation. :banghead:

 

[grandmaj]

How do you suggest he could have made it clearer and easier to understand? Trim it down? Use different wording?He was probably limited to a great degree by the fact of leaving things open to an appeal if there had been a conviction.

It is my belief that there were two things rushed in this process. The jury selection and the Charging documents to the Jury. They tried to formulate that all during a one hour lunch.. to agree. It is possible there was another way to present the charges.

And Chief Justice Belvin Perry had originally said it would take 45 minutes to an hour to charge the jury. And then when the closing statements took longer than he anticipated , he said he could do it in 30 minutes.

I'm not blaming the judge. The judge was very good about always keeping in mind that this jury was sequestered. And wanted that time of sequestration to be less rather than more time throughout the trial.

He even said when they appeared on Monday and started to discuss the charging documents that he should have made the attorneys work it out on Saturday afternoon.

Then we had 12 potential jurors dismissed because of the woman yelling out in court. The jury could have been a totally different jury if that had not happened.

You know I believe things happen for a reason. Maybe that reason we haven't seen yet.

 

[logicalgirl]

I just have one more comment before I move off the thread, which is entitled "..........juries are tired of theoretical...."

We have become a "sound-bite" mentality. Information printed in the gossip rags, on HLN, on Entertainment tonight, we accept as fact. Slices of events, where the only side we see or care about is spoon fed to us through the media.

We have become adept at swift and condensed communication as we text and Facebook our lives away. Computers have shortened our concentration time to less than two minutes per "item" before we become restless and want to move on.

We have also become intensely interested in the behavioural side of life - the innuendos, the gossip, the chitchat. We make decisions on emotions = fact rather than the facts = behaviour. So if so and so is saying this and doing that then X must be fact. Rather than the facts are this and that so that explains the behaviour. It's much more "fun" to discuss whether or not someone is a sexual molester than it is to base any discussions on fact. Facts aren't "fun". It's gotten crazy and scary....

 

[cluciano63]

The state picked this jury too...in fact we would still be in jury selection if it was up to JB...

 

[robmom]

Good points. Another thing I found extremely disturbing was the way the female defense attorney, (was her name Sims, the same one that was jumping up and down after the verdict) kept fondling Casey during the trial. Hugging her, holding her hand, stroking her, I found it highly inappropriate and thought it was being intentionally done to make Casey look like the victim. I was waiting for the judge to put a stop to it.

I was waiting for the judge to say "Miss Anthony, if you'd like to testify, get on the stand. Otherwise quit testifying by mouthing things." She testified without taking the stand and being cross-examined. The jury bought it. JMO.

 

[Steft50]

The tests show she is sane and fit to stand trial. She is just EVIL. But I know what you mean..how can she not be insane?...

I could be wrong here, but the tests done to show she is capable to stand trial only show that a. she knows right from wrong. and b. she is capable and able to participate in her own defense. That is all they show. Any mental disorders are something entirely different and evaluated differently.

 

[logicalgirl]

Huh?
I don't remember that, maybe my mind blocked it out in a fit of anger at the though of Caylee being scared and alone on a balcony, seriously every piece of evidence presented showed that ICA was a terrible and disinterested mother.

The young woman with the glasses who helped put Caylee put her shoes on because ICA was with Tony and left Caylee to do it herself. Caylee was shut out on the balcony when they arrived at the apartment.

 

[Sjoseph316]

Pretty much what it boils down to anymore these days is if the state doesn't have the crime on video then all the defense has to do is tell lies in their opening statement and add that their client was molested, and then during trial dispute all the state's evidence and confuse the jury as much as possible, and they will win an acquittal!

 

[OneLove]

Please explain yourself. You seem to be implying some sort of conspiracy theory. Baiting is a violation of TOS.

However, explaining your theory or opinion is not. I'm interested and all ears.

 

[DIXIECAT]

Lee states that Casey didn't even think or bring up a kidnapping until the police were on their way. She was backed into a corner so had to add a lie to her nanny lie.Lee explained to her in so many words, the police would demand she take them to Caylee.
The duct tape was not put on Caylee to look like a kidnapping as that was an after thought.

(Bold and Italics are mine)
Thank you, com n sense, for confirming my thoughts about that tape!
Below is the message I posted on July 2, 2011... my feelings were hurt that only one person "Thanked" me, so I'm glad you brought it up again..."IMO the duct tape could have been the murder "weapon" either alone, or in conjunction with chloroform. I believe she taped her to keep her quite, and/or to smother her... regardless, she did not plan the kidnapping story from the beginning, because I don't think she believed Caylee's body would ever be found. If she had planned for a kidnapping, then why would she use items from her own home, such as the blanket-- and anyone who has watched a crime show knows that trash bags can be traced to a known source....
I think she came up with that story on the fly, under pressure from Lee while he was 'interrogating' her in her bedroom. I'm sure this is full of holes that y'all more experienced sleuthers can point out... please do and thanks!"