Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #6

[Starry Night]

another missing lady nearby:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ulie-Marie-Weaver-48-Marysville-19-March-2016

 

[Lilibet]

This news story in my area got my attention. A 70 year old woman with no history of dementia was missing for 14 hours. She was eventually tracked by K9's to an underground culvert one tenth mile from her home and found alive with mild hypothermia at 3:00 a.m. She has no idea how or why she got there. I'm sure tests are being run during her hospital stay, but tests are often inconclusive.

Of course, there was no razor blade or plastic bag or death so I realize Cheryl's case is totally different, but things do happen that we don't understand. Certainly, this woman could have cut her own fingers and been found dead with a bag over her head face down in the water. If she had, would we assume it was suicide or murder? Probably. But we wouldn't know for sure. However, she didn't die and we know it was a possibly unexplainable action on her part. Could the same be true of Cheryl?

Before anyone starts with the age comparisons to Cheryl as if 70 is ancient and reason enough to end up mysteriously in a culvert, trust me, 70 is NOT "elderly" in most people. I should know! Something like that could happen to anyone for any number of reasons besides age. It could have happened to Cheryl.

https://kobi5.com/news/woman-found-missing-from-her-home-24338/

 

[otto]

Too much or too little carbon dioxide causes me to feel dizzy first, get a full blown panic attack second, and immediately get a headache. And that's just from overbreathing or holding my breath. With the same flight or fight response kicking in for Cheryl, if it was of her own accord, I cannot imagine the sheer will it took to keep a bag on her head all the way until she passed out, because feeling that sensation for just a short time has caused me to call 911 and beg for help. (I have severe panic attacks that come out of nowhere.)


The cat breeder (I feel so bad I forget the name!!!) did not feel comfortable sharing details further than that Cheryl owned a .357. It was never stated that she conceal-carried it, or that it was found on her or near her, or if it was still at home as usual.

RSBM - MOO

In what non-suicidal situations would someone find themselves with "Too much or too little carbon dioxide" and under what circumstances does that happen?

Why do you hold your breath?

All we know is that Cheryl adopted a cat two days before she vanished.
The cat does not appear to be related to her death in a drainage ditch.

 

[otto]

Otto, good questions. I'm leaning toward suicide.

A lot of WSers are wondering how her body ended up over a mile from her car. I think it is likely that she just started walking. Wasn't sure if she could go through with it, and was walking. Before she knew it, she was a mile+ away from her car. There have been other cases where people have walked for hours before taking their lives. We can only surmise that they were having lots of internal discussions leading up to the moment.

Please feel free to use this map to plot her route. What would it look like?

I've read too many hypothesis about "she could have taken a different route", yet no one wants to use the map to illustrate what that means.

Please feel free to use the attached map to illustrate how Cheryl got to the drainage ditch, and please explain why she did not choose a closer ditch to die from hyperventilation.

 

[otto]

I have been gone for hours and this thread turned into a new thread so I cannot quote the right person- but did the cat breeder (I'm sorry if that is not your technical title) state CD carried a gun?

Was CD found with the gun on her? I'm very curious about that and have not really seen it mentioned other than the one post.

Cheryl was described by the kitten owner as a sportsperson who would have shot herself in the head sooner than wade hip deep into a cold creek to hyperventilate in a take-out food bag.

 

[otto]

Everything makes sense in this case if you stop trying to figure out a suicide angle and focus on abduction and murder. Things only seem wonky when the hypothesis is wonky too.

What is the hypothesis?

 

[Mamamerced]

Cheryl was described by the kitten owner as a sportsperson who would have shot herself in the head sooner than wade hip deep into a cold creek to hyperventilate in a take-out food bag.

Doesn't hyperventilating mean too much oxygen and too little carbon monoxide?

 

[Yvettea]

Doesn't hyperventilating mean too much oxygen and too little carbon monoxide?

Too much oxygen causes you to pass out. Too much carbon dioxide can cause drowsiness and eventually sleep.

 

[Mamamerced]

Thanks. So when a person hyperventilates s/he produces too much oxygen? The opposite of suicide by plastic-bag induced carbon monoxcide poisoning. I think. Imo.

 

[roro206]

Breathing underwater doesn't work very well. People here seem to be focused on the bag not the water.

Hi Anzac - thank you for your expertise. I am still trying to understand how she was able to do this without sedatives. Maybe you can explain more about how you think this could've occured?
My understanding is that hypercapnia is when the CO2 level in the blood becomes too high that leads to acute respiratory acidosis, which then could lead to unconsciousness and even coma. The body's innate response to maintain homeostasis (oxygenate and rid of CO2)will continue even after they reach unconsciousness. This is the reason why sedatives at the right dose and taken at the right time is very important for exit bags to be successful (to depress the respiratory system). It counteracts the body's reflex to breathe in oxygen and get rid of excess CO2.

If CD went underwater while the bag was still intact, the question would be how did the small amount of water get in her lungs but not oxygen?
However, if she had become unconscious, and for some reason the bag came loose as she fell into the water, her body's drive for oxygen would've still kicked in - standing or sitting in the culvert, it would've taken a lot of self control to not fight that urge to come up for air, especially being in a semi-conscious state, the body will act even if the person is not aware what it is doing.

Sorry if you answered this question before, have you ever seen anyone who had been successful with a an exit bag only, and not use helium and sedatives?

IMOO

 

[Starry Night]

What is the hypothesis?

Perhaps TeaTime meant a 'suicide' angle hypothesis? I took it that way.

A real mystery this case.

 

[U2forever]

Search and Rescue. In Washington state, search and rescue is managed by the sheriff's offices of the 39 counties. I'm a non-commissioned (no gun, no power of arrest, no shiny badge) volunteer with one of the sheriff's offices - we do get a sheriff's office ID card. WA state law allows SAR to assist with evidence searches and crime scenes. We are required to be trained in crime scene procedures (I carry yellow crime scene tape in my rig.....). Because some outside deaths turn out to be suicide or homicide, we also see a lot of those, though far more accident and suicide than homicide.

SAR from two counties assisted with this case, but I was not involved and have not asked for any of the details (which frees me to speculate here). We're sort of the "low-cost" CSI team. We find things, but generally we don't touch them. Though under WA state law we are able to move bodies and human remains to the medical examiner (I've driven with a body in my car, which is ...weird) and we also testify in court cases when called. We're also part of the chain of custody for evidence.

Some of the types of resources we provide:
- air scent, trailing scent and cadaver/human remains detection dogs
- trackers
- helicopter landing support
- ground search for people, human remains, evidence (metal detectors, brush cutting, grid searches)
- crime scene mapping/surveying

WA state has the infamous distinction of being home to some famous serial killers as well. SAR volunteers put tens of thousands of hours into many of the cases listed on this site. Green river killer, Bundy, Sky Metalwala etc. We get called in from a city, to us (the county), and then maybe to another county.

Our typical evidence search cases are: murder weapon thrown in the bushes (guns, knives, shell casings etc.) and human remains (partial or complete bodies). Sometimes we also look for things that are subject's effects (eg phone, wallet, jewelry, stolen items from house that kind of thing). Sometimes we are looking for items as small as teeth.

We work very closely with major crimes detectives. Also have worked with ATF, NCIS, FBI even the Army...etc. They need help, they call the sheriff's office and we show up.

Generally we just do what we're told by LE (they tell us when/where to show up) -- but in many cases we have people with far more expertise in finding things/bodies etc. So they let us do our thing and tell us what they know.

Not all of the crimes we work on are committed outdoors. For example, someone kills someone in a house, then runs away and throws the murder weapon away. In that case we don't go near the body, but we do help find evidence. We also work cold cases too.

The best part of the crime scene work is putting bad people away. When a detective says "you did it, this guy is going to go to jail" that's a great feeling.

OR, CA, UT and CO I think are similar, but I'm not 100% sure.

ANZAC, awesome post. Thanks for explaining and sharing, your work is fascinating.

 

[Justiceforcheryl]

Too much or too little carbon dioxide causes me to feel dizzy first, get a full blown panic attack second, and immediately get a headache. And that's just from overbreathing or holding my breath. With the same flight or fight response kicking in for Cheryl, if it was of her own accord, I cannot imagine the sheer will it took to keep a bag on her head all the way until she passed out, because feeling that sensation for just a short time has caused me to call 911 and beg for help. (I have severe panic attacks that come out of nowhere.)


The cat breeder (I feel so bad I forget the name!!!) did not feel comfortable sharing details further than that Cheryl owned a .357. It was never stated that she conceal-carried it, or that it was found on her or near her, or if it was still at home as usual.

RSBM - MOO

I asked her husband permission before ever posting about it. She had a concealed carry permit. My whole point in sharing this was that if she was going to kill herself there was a much easier and probably painless way. I cannot say if she had it on her that day or not. I assume not but I just don't know.

 

[dizzychick]

Maybe this is a goofy idea but why cant we put together a dossier and timeline and let one of the verified's present it to the cops as an adjunct to their investigation. Has this ever been done before ? Maybe they would just trash it I dunno, I just feel so helpless and wish we could help ...

 

[Justiceforcheryl]

IMOO

1. I really don't believe she hit an animal, scooped it up, placed it in her car. She was seen leaving at approx 6:55ish from her home, the car was seen at 7 am, she texts the carpool at 7:02 stating she left her badge and needed 10 mins. We know she never left that area in her car back towards home. I would also think she would have told the carpool she hit something that needed attention vs leaving her badge, and finally, the blood was tested and did not match domestic animals(i think this is what was said)

2. I really don't think she received a much wanted cat from a person who held the cat for her as well as being a breeder and a vet tech (my daughter is one so I have some knowledge) with matted hair that required a razor blade...perhaps this has been clarified and I missed it. Perhaps this is a long haired cat which could need their matted hair removed daily to prevent hairballs. I will ask my daughter for her experience.

I agree the razor blade is a stretch for the cat and we never discussed it. He is a long haired boy and I have a "catio" and he loves to go out and play in the rain. So matts happen easily. He was not bad but I didn't want to break out clippers and make him upset before leaving. He loved to be brushed and that's something their other kitty also loved and they enjoyed the time with him. Some of the raw food comes in "chubs" which can be hard to open. I have to use a sharp knife. I'm just trying to think of the why she would have the razor blade. I still do not and will not believe its s suicide.

 

[rotary_dial]

Cheryl was described by the kitten owner as a sportsperson who would have shot herself in the head sooner than wade hip deep into a cold creek to hyperventilate in a take-out food bag.

Long ago (15+ years), I was on psychiatric medicine for depression which led me to suicidal ideations. In all of the scenarios involving a firearm, I was scared that shooting myself might fail to kill me. The idea of ending up brain damaged and attached to a life support machine was more than enough to lead me to think of different methods. That lead to researching the whole inert gas/exit bag method. I too thought that might leave me in a worse state than I started out in if the attempt failed or someone found me in time to save me.

After much debate and research, I became fixated on building a guillotine because it would completely sever my spine and there was no turning back once the blade dropped. Luckily I had a moment of clarity and went to the ER when I started to actually draw up plans and a material list for this device. I was switched to different medication and the ideations went away.

I suppose what I'm getting at (sorry for the rambling, I didn't get much sleep last night), is that Cheryl might have feared that using a firearm could have left her in a bad state if she decided to shoot herself and it failed. The problem with that idea is why would she choose to try and suffocate/drown herself, when she had a chemistry/biology background and could have used much more fool proof methods. Obviously suicidal people aren't thinking rationally, so maybe that explains her choice.

 

[Yvettea]

Not much sleep for me last night either and more than enough time to wonder if a plastic bag method could work under conditions over which she had so little control. It would be difficult to crouch near the culvert and not disturb the vegetation.

She was found in a large culvert containing a creek. Her clothes were not disheveled and there were no tears in the fabric. Her glasses were folded. Brambles covering the eastside of the culvert had not been disturbed. There were no signs of disturbance to the ground along the west side of the culvert, Wilson said.
http://www.heraldnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?aid=/20160323/NEWS01/160329601&template=MobileArt

You would be there for so long trying to accomplish the slow process of producing drowsiness and finally sleep. It's true that individuals with sleep apnea for instance sometimes fall asleep involuntarily, but deliberately reproducing that effect under such conditions as Cheryl was in seems nearly impossible. On top of everything else it was raining that day. This seems like the "sci fi" moment that failed the reality test.

 

[Eileen730]

Everything makes sense in this case if you stop trying to figure out a suicide angle and focus on abduction and murder. Things only seem wonky when the hypothesis is wonky too.

I think that would only work if u thought it was a Murder!

Id like to know what her days were like before this happened!
Any problems?
Arguments with anyone?

I cant see a motive to murder her!

 

[PLT]

So this explains it. She sat next to the creek with the bag over her head rebreathing the air to allow a slow buildup of carbon dioxide in her bloodstream. That produced the drowsiness that caused her to fall asleep and fall into the creek where she drowned. Had she allowed a rapid buildup of carbon dioxide in her bloodstream she would have been unable to resist the urge to get fresh air. Doing it slowly was the key.

Cheryl was a chemistry major and would've understood exactly how to go about this, I'm sorry to say.

MOO

The falling part of this equation........ if she had not fallen face down into the creek and landed up or missed the creek and fell sideways on land ....would she have woken up assuming air was getting in through the flimsy bag? Forgive such questions but I am truly novice on this topic and would think so many factors could come into play here that would make landing face down and drowning a 50 /50 chance at best.

 

[Eileen730]

Maybe this is a goofy idea but why cant we put together a dossier and timeline and let one of the verified's present it to the cops as an adjunct to their investigation. Has this ever been done before ? Maybe they would just trash it I dunno, I just feel so helpless and wish we could help ...

I actually think they read here! LOL
I would if I was LE.