Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #6

[DatelineFan]

I don't believe her husband would say this if there nothing to it. Their family is going through a terrible trial and I place some faith their perceptions of events.

http://mynorthwest.com/11/2939704/F...bt-surrounding-Mountlake-Terrace-womans-death

I agree with you. I think there's more we don't know. I understand that suicide is difficult to accept. My own family has had to accept it. But I can't see it in this situation. I've said it before, but even if we knew she was depressed, I wouldn't be able to believe it given what we know so far.

My heart goes out to Mike and Eric.

 

[ANZAC]

Just wanted to mention that if the cell phone was thrown away into water it would have turned off pretty much immediately. (Unless she had it in a waterproof case.)

It isn't the same as pressing the power button on a phone and telling it to shut down. If a phone goes in the water it either loses signal, or shorts out/stops working. All of these are equivalent to pulling the battery or losing signal.

The shutdown message is only sent if you press the power button on the phone (or the phone software shuts the phone down). So my working assumption based on the statements from LE is that someone (CD or other) pressed the power button on the phone. Given that happened where the car is at, it seems far less likely to be homicide. Why not just leave the phone in the car if you are the murderer? Why turn it off? As long as Cheryl was not with the phone (presumably the murderer marched her 1.5 miles!) then he didn't need to do anything else with the phone. The most obvious and likely explanation is that CD turned the phone off. Not the actions of someone who was heading to work, it speaks to a deliberate act by CD.

 

[ANZAC]

in reply to Otto:

Why couldn't Cheryl send the texts about the badge? then she had no reason to park or lock her car, just drive home
Why wouldn't she park where she parked, given that she was known to park there in the past and her husband had no difficulty locating her car? why not in the parking lot?
Why couldn't the perp cut her fingers? ME says self inflicted. They're doctors and have examined body
Why assume a perp has no car? possible but then why drive only 1.5 miles to a relatively public location and then kill her outside the car? big chance of being seen
Why assume the bag was loosely tied on her head, especially given that it was still attached when she was found?there would be marks if it was tied tightly, and I think we've established it didn't need to be tight to drown her anyway

(bold are my answers)

 

[DatelineFan]

To believe it was a homicide you need to believe:

- the perp forced CD to send a text saying she'd left her card and would go by herself
- the perp forced her to park her car, not quite at the park and ride
- the perp forced her to cut her fingers with a razor blade and made her put the razor blade in her pocket
- the perp put animal blood in the car
- the perp turned her phone off, and then kept it to throw away later or keep with the wallet
- the perp made her walk 1.5 miles, (at gun point...) and no one saw them together or saw a gun
- the perp put a bag tied loosely on her head, and she didn't struggle, and made her get in the water and drown/asphyxiate herself
- the perp didn't rip her clothes, or leave any marks on her body

I disagree.

- I think she could have been attacked after she sent the text about her badge.
- she may have chosen to park there
- I'm not exactly sure how they know the cuts are self-inflicted, so I don't have an answer on that, but I have ideas
- The razor blade may or may not be related or planted
- the animal blood may not be related. If it is, I can think of some ways it wasn't just planted there
- it's certainly more likely to me that the perp has her phone and wallet the perp likely drove her to the culvert
- as for the rest, she could have been at gun point

I don't think you're giving people much credit. You must think that those who don't believe suicide are incredibly close minded and lack critical thinking skills.

 

[Terrace12]

Unfortunately I do have a bunch of things planned for the weekend. It is about 1hr drive for me each way.

However the weather this week would be good to search. The most likely place the phone is in the creek, somewhere. I don't know how deep or swift the creek is, but I bet it is cold. We hate searching in mud or water, very difficult to find things. Dive units typically don't do shallow bogs or creeks. I do have a waterproof metal detector head I use for streams etc. If anyone goes searching, BRING A BUDDY and stay safe (and out of the water).

One tool I commonly use for those kind of searches is a very bright flashlight (during the day), very effective for finding metal/manmade objects.

I'd suggest looking at the west side of the creek, in the creek and edge of the road from 236th down south to the culvert. I wouldn't spend too much time near the culvert itself because I assume LE/SAR have been all over it.

When we do a grid search, if I have spare time I will do a very quick search further afield than the grid, been lucky a few times. Once we found a gun in about 10 seconds just following the path the perp took (after spending 2 hours searching with the police K9 thought the gun was....)

I am thinking they also searched Terrace Creek Park which is only two blocks from her home? She would have gone past this park on her way to 58th that morning if it was in fact her driving her car. I wasnt sure if people who don't live in this area realize this park is so near to her home and it is a good size park. Just a thought.

 

[ANZAC]

I think the best bet would under hedges or over the back fences of properties with a lot of vegetation. I would guess the path of Lyon creek has been well-searched already both upstream and downstream of the culvert.

I wouldn't assume that. The further out you go the more effort intensive the search becomes. They'd have to pick one likely path from car to culvert. To search a second path would be a lot more work. They would have done a fairly intensive search around culvert and car. The further north you go on the creek the less likely it has been throughly searched.

One of thing I should mention, any drains in the curb also a good place to dump wallet/phone/keys. But if she had the culvert/creek in mind, more likely she saved them for the creek.

 

[ANZAC]

I don't think you're giving people much credit. You must think that those who don't believe suicide are incredibly close minded and lack critical thinking skills.

Homicides are generally very violent events. Cuts, bruises, gunshot wounds, stab wounds, hand marks around neck, blunt force injuries....

I'm open to homicide but it seems a very remote possibility. No known motive, no evidence of violence.

And why commit the act at a place possibly to be seen by passing traffic? If she was in the murderer's car, why not drive her somewhere completely secluded? (logging road, dead end road, power line road, his house, or even murder her in the car? etc.)

Why did she have a razor? Why the self inflicted cuts? And then why put the razor in her coat?
Why turn the phone off and not just drive home to get the badge?

I am not trying to be critical of people with alternate theories but shine a light of some of these questions that just don't add up to homicide.

 

[otto]

in reply to Otto:

Why couldn't Cheryl send the texts about the badge?
then she had no reason to park or lock her car, just drive home

Why wouldn't she park where she parked, given that she was known to park there in the past and her husband had no difficulty locating her car?
why not in the parking lot?

Why couldn't the perp cut her fingers?
ME says self inflicted. They're doctors and have examined body

Why assume a perp has no car?
possible but then why drive only 1.5 miles to a relatively public location and then kill her outside the car? big chance of being seen

Why assume the bag was loosely tied on her head, especially given that it was still attached when she was found?
there would be marks if it was tied tightly, and I think we've established it didn't need to be tight to drown her anyway

(bold are my answers)

She pulled over to send the text. We don't know who locked her car. She may have intended to drive home when suddenly something happened.

There's been a lot of discussion about the reason that Cheryl parked where she did, and my understanding is that the parking lot bottle-necked at the end of the day, so some people parked a couple of blocks away in the overflow area. It's also possible that she realized enroute that she had forgotten the badge and that she stopped where her car was found specifically to send the text. She would have continued on that road and turned right a block later to drive home.

The ME claims that cuts appear to be self inflicted, but that has to be speculation. Without a witness, it cannot be said whether cuts on fingers are self-inflicted.

If the area where her body was found is "public", why didn't anyone see Cheryl there?

The bag doesn't need to be tight to cause death, but it does have to be firmly secured in order to remain in place in a moving creek for 6 days.

 

[DatelineFan]

Homicides are generally very violent events. Cuts, bruises, gunshot wounds, stab wounds, hand marks around neck, blunt force injuries....

I'm open to homicide but it seems a very remote possibility. No known motive, no evidence of violence.

And why commit the act at a place possibly to be seen by passing traffic? If she was in the murderer's car, why not drive her somewhere completely secluded? (logging road, dead end road, power line road, his house, or even murder her in the car? etc.)

Why did she have a razor? Why the self inflicted cuts? And then why put the razor in her coat?
Why turn the phone off and not just drive home to get the badge?

I am not trying to be critical of people with alternate theories but shine a light of some of these questions that just don't add up to homicide.

Why commit suicide where you can possibly be seen? Why wouldn't she commit suicide at home or somewhere remote?

I'm aware of how homicide usually looks.

There's also no known motive for suicide.

For suicide you have to believe that she walked 1.3 miles, ditched her wallet, keys and phone (why?) to drown and suffocate herself in a ditch, when she had an education in chemistry, and a handgun.

I don't know about the cuts and the razor. I think there are pieces of both theories that don't fit. Even if she committed suicide, I don't understand why she would cut her fingers.

This is truly a mystery.

 

[otto]

Homicides are generally very violent events. Cuts, bruises, gunshot wounds, stab wounds, hand marks around neck, blunt force injuries....

I'm open to homicide but it seems a very remote possibility. No known motive, no evidence of violence.

And why commit the act at a place possibly to be seen by passing traffic? If she was in the murderer's car, why not drive her somewhere completely secluded? (logging road, dead end road, power line road, his house, or even murder her in the car? etc.)

Why did she have a razor? Why the self inflicted cuts? And then why put the razor in her coat?
Why turn the phone off and not just drive home to get the badge?

I am not trying to be critical of people with alternate theories but shine a light of some of these questions that just don't add up to homicide.

It is not possible to draw conclusions about murder or suicide based on the proximity between a person's vehicle, or last known location, and the location of the body.

Some homicides are violent, others aren't.

There is no motive for suicide.

"Self-inflicted" cuts is an opinion, not a fact. She had cuts to her fingers and a razor blade in her pocket. If she had a gun shot to her head and a gun in her pocket, no one would assume that the injuries were self-inflicted, and no one should make the same assumption about a razor blade.

 

[ANZAC]

She pulled over to send the text. We don't know who locked her car. She may have intended to drive home when suddenly something happened.

There's been a lot of discussion about the reason that Cheryl parked where she did, and my understanding is that the parking lot bottle-necked at the end of the day, so some people parked a couple of blocks away in the overflow area. It's also possible that she realized enroute that she had forgotten the badge and that she stopped where her car was found specifically to send the text. She would have continued on that road and turned right a block later to drive home.

I could accept she is interrupted, but why is her phone then turned off? Just toss the phone in her car and lock it.

No one has yet fully described the murder scenario accounting for all the things, the animal blood, the self inflicted cuts, the phone being turned off, the razor in the pocket. The murderer has no reason to do any of those things.

The ME claims that cuts appear to be self inflicted, but that has to be speculation. Without a witness, it cannot be said whether cuts on fingers are self-inflicted.

In my experience the ME's generally know what they are doing. I'm not a doctor, they are. I've seen wounds I was sure were homicide that turned out to be self inflicted. I don't see any reason to doubt the ME's conclusion.

If the area where her body was found is "public", why didn't anyone see Cheryl there?

1 person out for a stroll is less interesting than two people (one with a gun) or a car and someone being unloaded from it.

 

[Jen Darme]

It isn't the same as pressing the power button on a phone and telling it to shut down. If a phone goes in the water it either loses signal, or shorts out/stops working. All of these are equivalent to pulling the battery or losing signal.

The shutdown message is only sent if you press the power button on the phone (or the phone software shuts the phone down). So my working assumption based on the statements from LE is that someone (CD or other) pressed the power button on the phone. Given that happened where the car is at, it seems far less likely to be homicide. Why not just leave the phone in the car if you are the murderer? Why turn it off? As long as Cheryl was not with the phone (presumably the murderer marched her 1.5 miles!) then he didn't need to do anything else with the phone. The most obvious and likely explanation is that CD turned the phone off. Not the actions of someone who was heading to work, it speaks to a deliberate act by CD.

Depending on cell network standard, if a detach signal is recorded it may not be specific or the result of the phone powering down. The network can issue an implicit detach after failing to get a signal from a phone after x number of attempted pings.

With at least some networks, this is only recorded in the location register, not the database of subscribers' info. I'm not aware of specific detach signalling info being included with CDRs. We have people here who work(ed) with CDRs and can perhaps clarify if there's more than a standard offline type note when text messages cannot be delivered.

In recent and at least one ongoing trial, digital forensic experts have testified that they assumed a cell phone was powered down because the phone was no longer used or tower pings ceased and when asked what would cause that, they state the phone could've been powered off or the battery or SIM card removed. From the ongoing Tim Bosma trial (bottom of page 4) which is an example of both this and a backlog of texts:

After 9:20 p.m. on the 6th, the Smich phone placed no outgoing communications.

Wilkinson says this suggests the Smich phone was turned off, the SIM card was removed or the battery was pulled.

On May 7 between 9:18 p.m. to 9:21 p.m., Smich's phone was sent 21 texts. Those messages only contained tower info that the phone would have been turned off at the time the message was originally sent. If the phone was tuned back on, it would have been "flooded" with those texts, court hears.

The forensic expert above was speaking for the prosecution and an intentional act by the defendant is in their favor, just as an intentional act by Cheryl supports your stance.

However, there are other reasons signals cease (triggering network-initiated detach requests), beyond aluminum foil and Faraday bags: terrain, dense foliage, metal and thick concrete structures, eg bridges and parking garages. There are also store-bought blockers and DIY jammers that can be used to block signals in small areas, such as in a vehicle.

ETA: typo

 

[ANZAC]

It is not possible to draw conclusions about murder or suicide based on the proximity between a person's vehicle, or last known location, and the location of the body.

They certainly can tip the scales one way or the other. An awful lot of work to get her into the culvert with a bag on her head. Why not the bush on the other side of the creek?

Some homicides are violent, others aren't.

Poisonings sure. But asphyxiation and/or drowning - people struggle!

There is no motive for suicide.

That's the beauty of suicide, there doesn't need to be a motive. People sometimes reach an erroneous conclusion that the world is better off without them. I've seen plenty of those cases, and the families say the same thing as this family "she was fine, happy, everything was ok". We don't know all the dark thoughts people carry with them.

I'll also accept there are murderers who kill without apparent motive or just for gratification, but they are few and far between and again, those scenes are usually showing evidence of homicide.

"Self-inflicted" cuts is an opinion, not a fact. She had cuts to her fingers and a razor blade in her pocket. If she had a gun shot to her head and a gun in her pocket, no one would assume that the injuries were self-inflicted, and no one should make the same assumption about a razor blade.

It is a medical opinion from the person responsible for making those determinations under Washington state law.

 

[TeaTime]

He is a link to a possible walking route from the location of Cheryl's car to the culvert. The site gives you the option to choose a mode of transport and but does not allow you to edit the route (you are only able to edit start and end points). This route was generated by Google as being pedestrian-friendly as I choose the "walking" option it therefore it avoids major arterials and intersections - as a result there are no traffic cams visible and few commercial properties en route...

It plays as a streetview movie on the left and map on the right:

http://www.brianfolts.com/driver/?o...on&fps=1&travelmode=WALKING&rn=walking+option

ETA: Who knows what time of day google collected these images but I am stuck by the lack of traffic, both vehicle and pedestrian.

Thanks you for this map. See the Tulsuwood Apartments? There is a creek running behind them with a walking trail and a short hop to the culvert.

I think the perp lives there.

 

[ANZAC]

Depending on cell network standard, if a detach signal is recorded it may not be specific or the result of the phone powering down. The network can issue an implicit detach after failing to get a signal from a phone after x number of attempted pings.

The network will detach the phone, but when our people look at the tower data they know that is from a loss of signal in the situation you describe.

The people analyzing this stuff are absolutely expert at it - this is not the phone company doing it, I've posted the link to who does it at least during exigent circumstances. Go back and look. The only variable here is were LE speaking precisely and exactly when they said it was "shut off".

But if we are tracking someone who is missing, we are VERY VERY clearly told: signal was lost vs the phone was shut off. And they've NEVER been wrong in all the cases we've worked on. I know two of the people that worked on this at the beginning of the case. Again, I've not asked them anything about it, but this is how things generally go. If the MLT spokesman said the phone was "shut off right after", and if you assume those words mean the phone was turned off by a person, then I do believe the cell forensics support it.

There have been huge advances in this in the last three years, all outside of the realm of the wireless carriers.

 

[DatelineFan]

I could accept she is interrupted, but why is her phone then turned off? Just toss the phone in her car and lock it.

No one has yet fully described the murder scenario accounting for all the things, the animal blood, the self inflicted cuts, the phone being turned off, the razor in the pocket. The murderer has no reason to do any of those things.



In my experience the ME's generally know what they are doing. I'm not a doctor, they are. I've seen wounds I was sure were homicide that turned out to be self inflicted. I don't see any reason to doubt the ME's conclusion.



1 person out for a stroll is less interesting than two people (one with a gun) or a car and someone being unloaded from it.

We don't know which of these things are relevant. The animal blood, the cuts, etc., one or two could be coincidence. I agree with another poster who said that the self inflicted cuts are not fact. Doctors aren't infallible.

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

Why commit suicide where you can possibly be seen? Why wouldn't she commit suicide at home or somewhere remote?

I'm aware of how homicide usually looks.

There's also no known motive for suicide.

For suicide you have to believe that she walked 1.3 miles, ditched her wallet, keys and phone (why?) to drown and suffocate herself in a ditch, when she had an education in chemistry, and a handgun.

I don't know about the cuts and the razor. I think there are pieces of both theories that don't fit. Even if she committed suicide, I don't understand why she would cut her fingers.

This is truly a mystery.

Sally Allen walked eleven miles to commit suicide (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...appearing-home-3-10am-Boxing-Day-morning.html)

We have had many, many cases here (and unfortunately in my personal experience) where the person committing suicide does so away from home. As the majority don't leave a note, the best guess is that they don't want to put family/friends through the trauma of finding their body - or being found before they have died. Equally, some choose a location that is not remote - perhaps thinking that they will be found reasonably quickly.

No known motive for suicide is irrelevant; not everyone who commits suicide broadcasts their internal warfare beforehand. How many times have we seen family/friends assert their loved one would never kill themselves, but it turns out that's exactly what happened? And then "motive" starts to appear - but usually accompanied by a chorus of "but that doesn't make any sense" from the public gallery, because it doesn't make sense - to them.

For those questioning the "self inflicted cuts" - forensics experts train for many years and you'll find lots of stuff on google if you search. Having just caught up with the news about a razor, Cheryl could have cut her fingers getting the blade out of the packaging, or getting it out of a pocket, or if she used it to cut whatever was used to hold the bag round her head. Maybe she was contemplating whether or not she could cut her wrists. All we know is that experts have been able to determine that the cuts did not result from Cheryl fighting someone off (defensive wounds) or being attacked by someone.

My own feelings from quite early on have leant towards it being suicide and what's been revealed so far has done little to change my opinion. There may yet be evidence that does. But this is what I see now.

1. No (reported) evidence that she struggled to remove the bag over her head - e.g. scratch marks on her neck, bruising - and apparently a clean tox screen so she wasn't unconscious when the bag was put over her head

2. No indication from her clothing that she was assaulted or in a struggle for her life

3. Someone mentioned that she wouldn't have "crawled through brambles" to the location. That seems more likely to me than someone managing to force or drag her through that sort of terrain without leaving obvious signs (again, these may not be reported).

I completely understand that there are things that don't seem to make sense, and that the family feel it was homicide. And I applaud LE for continuing to work the case. I hope they can find something that gives an answer one way or another.

But speaking personally, as someone who has tried to take their own life, I would rather believe that Cheryl made her own choice and was at peace with it than died in terror at anothers hands.

 

[PLT]

My laptop battery is about to die but I envision myself going through this point by point in the morning. IMO it is not necessary at all to believe all or possibly any of those things in order to believe it was a homicide.

I feel while the combination is strange- the razor blade, finger cuts and animal "blood" ....these items are not related to her death. I think while CD was brilliant at work and in general - she was more carefree in other areas - losing badge, messy desk, forgetting what's in her pockets and perhaps not worried about cleaning up the car since it was old.

I think the blood results are still being worked on otherwise why mention blood tests are delayed because the person handling them is away? Originally, it was called blood when discovered but maybe MSM kept that term even when results came back. Maybe the report indicated that the "matter" came from an animal and it got lost in translation.

"However, a larger amount of blood on the floorboard of the car is animal. What type of animal blood and how it got there is yet to be determined.'

That quote above is from MSM not LE but I am looking to see if LE is quoted calling it animal blood.

I still think CD purchased meat for the cat over the weekend and I would think that could be easily confirmed or not. Yes, I know now that the liquid from the butcher combo meat is not blood but "Myoglobin Found in Car" doesn't grab attention in MSM.

I am not naive to the suicide indicators and agree that it can certainly go that way....but at this point, I can't be satisfied with suicide as a final ruling. What completely dissolves the scenario that someone took her out there and forced her down? No one saw her walking there alone nor did anyone see CD walking with someone. There are no footprints to indicate whether she was alone or with someone. Nothing was disturbed near the culvert but if she wasn't struggling it doesn't mean she didn't want to - maybe she couldn't at that point. If computer searches turn up evidence that she researched suicide or if she is seen on camera walking - I would very easily accept the suicide theory but just based on what we have today I cannot.

 

[Eileen730]

Where was the razorblade found?
Do we know?

 

[PLT]

He did not look strung out on drugs but I knew as soon as he started to slow down and lock eyes with me and keep walking towards my car, he was no good. The possibility that he was carrying the box cutter for protection crossed my mind later but he was walking around the parking lot in circles with a hood on, grasping a large box cutter. After talking with my husband, my husband suggested maybe he circled again because my front windshield is not tinted but the rest of the windows are and maybe he circled back to see if I was alone in the car.

Glad you were aware of this person being there. I hope LE was able to find him and perhaps get an ID from him. And the fact that you were pre-occupied on the phone is the chilling part....like perhaps someone is targetimg women around rush hour sitting alone. He would be a moron to return to that same area especially the main parking area (with cameras. I assume).

I also wonder if this was a slightly mentally-off vigilante taking it upon himself to patrol the area to warn possible targets and his box cutter was a legal version of a policeman's gun. Regardless of his intent - glad you got out of there safely!!!