Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #6

[PLT]

Where was the razorblade found?
Do we know?

I believe in her jacket pocket. Stryker57 said she used one to clean her ceramic stove/oven.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Why commit suicide where you can possibly be seen? Why wouldn't she commit suicide at home or somewhere remote?

RSBM

The location, unfortunately, makes complete sense to me for a suicide.

If she did it at home, she would be found by family. She may have not wanted family to have the pain of making that discovery.

If she did it somewhere remote, it's possible her body would never be found. She may have wanted to be found, just not too soon.

The culvert is secluded enough that she wouldn't be immediately seen and possibly saved, but at the same time near enough and public enough that she would be found reasonably quickly.

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[Wyle_E_Coyote]

"Self-inflicted" cuts is an opinion, not a fact. She had cuts to her fingers and a razor blade in her pocket. If she had a gun shot to her head and a gun in her pocket, no one would assume that the injuries were self-inflicted, and no one should make the same assumption about a razor blade.

RSBM

I wonder if the razor blade had a clear set of her fingerprints and no others. If a perp handled it with gloves I would think that would smear any other prints on it. Could be how they came to the self inflicted conclusion.

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[PLT]

"Blood was found inside DeBoer's car and on its exterior. That could have possibly come from self-inflicted cuts on DeBoer's fingers."

Is this the first mention of blood on the exterior of the car or did I just miss it before? New info or media error?

I thought the same thing when I read the same article today. I assumed thus far that the blood was all on the inside of the car. I also would like to know if the cuts/blood were recent or old. I realize that pinpointing to that morning or the day before would be impossible but whether the cuts were older and had healed somewhat versus fresh/open would be good to know.

 

[Eileen730]

I thought the same thing when I read the same article today. I assumed thus far that the blood was all on the inside of the car. I also would like to know if the cuts/blood were recent or old. I realize that pinpointing to that morning or the day before would be impossible but whether the cuts were older and had healed somewhat versus fresh/open would be good to know.

I think they were fresh ......rain would have washed off the blood outside the car don't u think?

 

[darring21]

While I am leaning towards suicide I certainly don't think any evidence has been revealed to support it, yet. I appreciate Anzac and others perspective and contribution but most of the arguments that it was suicide are lack of evidence of homicide. The reasoning is flawed. When others point out a similar lack of evidence of homicide, it is dismissed because suicide is irrational.

No motivation for homicide.
1. We don't know that.
2. Some homicides have no motivation.

When someone replies that there is no motivation for suicide, it is dismissed because there is no reason for a motivation for suicide yet is equally true for homicide. A lack of homicide motivation is not evidence of suicide.

The method is rarely used in homicide.
This argument also goes both ways. This method is rarely used for suicide and barely ever used without drugs or alcohol. When it is mentioned that it would be nearly impossible to use this method for suicide, the response is suicidal people do very irrational things. So do homicidal people. The method tells us nothing.

The location is a poor location for homicide.
If it was homicide, it didn't occur in the culvert. Her body was just dumped there and it seems a reasonable place if the person need a quick place to dump a body or had waited until night. It seems like a very poor place for a suicide, as many have mentioned. It would be just as likely that someone would see a murderer dumping her body as someone seeing someone walking into the culvert. The location doesn't tell us anything.

The lack of evidence of violence means suicide.
While most homicides do have evidence of violence, not all of them do. If we turn this argument around, a high percent of people who commit suicide have a history of mental illness and there is no evidence of mental illness with Cheryl. Also, a high percent of people who commit suicide have a history of drug or alcohol abuse and there is no evidence of that with Cheryl. Using the reasoning that a lack of violence means suicide, a lack of mental illness and drug or alcohol use means homicide. Both arguments are flawed and diminish the credibility of the person making it. A lack of evidence of one thing is not evidence of something else.

Self-inflicted cuts.
We don't know what they are and we don't know if they were intentionally self-inflicted.

This goes on and on. There a common factors in suicide that are lacking just as there are common factors in homicide that are lacking.

 

[Jen Darme]

The network will detach the phone, but when our people look at the tower data they know that is from a loss of signal in the situation you describe.

The people analyzing this stuff are absolutely expert at it - this is not the phone company doing it, I've posted the link to who does it at least during exigent circumstances. Go back and look. The only variable here is were LE speaking precisely and exactly when they said it was "shut off".

But if we are tracking someone who is missing, we are VERY VERY clearly told: signal was lost vs the phone was shut off. And they've NEVER been wrong in all the cases we've worked on. I know two of the people that worked on this at the beginning of the case. Again, I've not asked them anything about it, but this is how things generally go. If the MLT spokesman said the phone was "shut off right after", and if you assume those words mean the phone was turned off by a person, then I do believe the cell forensics support it.

There have been huge advances in this in the last three years, all outside of the realm of the wireless carriers.

You have been VERY VERY :wink: fortunate to be involved in situations where there was a perfect storm of a capable smartphone plus complete data acquisition, retention, and availability.

What gave you the idea anyone thought the phone company was analyzing the records? I was unable to find your previous post but I've read the recent articles based on statements by the police chief, including that they're waiting on the analysis from the US Marshalls Service. Btw, it was the search warrant issued on Feb 10 for her phone records that used the term "powered down."

 

[PLT]

I think they were fresh ......rain would have washed off the blood outside the car don't u think?

Yes I would think so and if the exterior blood is correct, I'm likely to assume it was all fresh now.

 

[dizzychick]

If we knew Cheryl has mental issues, drug issues, a divorce, a diary with suicidal thoughts, her hubby had a 21 year old girlfriend..something then I would be more inclined to buy into the suicide theory but so far none of that has been the case so I just do not see how LE can say or even hint suicide might be the cause when there is no evidence that leads to that, just the bizarre lack of evidence is all we have plus unknown animal blood...im so puzzled still...

 

[PLT]

If we knew Cheryl has mental issues, drug issues, a divorce, a diary with suicidal thoughts, her hubby had a 21 year old girlfriend..something then I would be more inclined to buy into the suicide theory but so far none of that has been the case so I just do not see how LE can say or even hint suicide might be the cause when there is no evidence that leads to that, just the bizarre lack of evidence is all we have plus unknown animal blood...im so puzzled still...

I agree but those examples you listed made me wonder if one of those or something similar could be the "sensitive" item LE alluded to earlier on . I assumed it was the bag but there may be knowledge that they legally cannot release (medical history) or unethical to mention if it involves personal matters . i don't get that impression based on statements by those who are close to the case.

 

[dizzychick]

I agree but those examples you listed made me wonder if one of those or something similar could be the "sensitive" item LE alluded to earlier on . I assumed it was the bag but there may be knowledge that they legally cannot release (medical history) or unethical to mention if it involves personal matters . i don't get that impression based on statements by those who are close to the case.

im not impressed with LE efforts at this point

 

[Treelights]

"Blood was found inside DeBoer's car and on its exterior. That could have possibly come from self-inflicted cuts on DeBoer's fingers."

Is this the first mention of blood on the exterior of the car or did I just miss it before? New info or media error?

I haven't read that before, as I was curious if blood was found on the Outside/Exterior of the car.

Interesting the trickle of information….

IMOO.

 

[otto]

They certainly can tip the scales one way or the other. An awful lot of work to get her into the culvert with a bag on her head. Why not the bush on the other side of the creek?

Poisonings sure. But asphyxiation and/or drowning - people struggle!

That's the beauty of suicide, there doesn't need to be a motive. People sometimes reach an erroneous conclusion that the world is better off without them. I've seen plenty of those cases, and the families say the same thing as this family "she was fine, happy, everything was ok". We don't know all the dark thoughts people carry with them.

I'll also accept there are murderers who kill without apparent motive or just for gratification, but they are few and far between and again, those scenes are usually showing evidence of homicide.

It is a medical opinion from the person responsible for making those determinations under Washington state law.

Suicide is most easily achieved at home. Why would someone drive 2 miles, then walk another 1.5 miles, to commit suicide in a dark, cold, hip-deep creek culvert?

DeBoer died of asphyxia and freshwater drowning (link). She was found with a plastic bag covering her face/head. Someone else could have caused unconsciousness before she was put into the creek, and there may be no evidence of a struggle.

There is no logical explanation at this time for murder or suicide.

The Medical Examiner is offering an opinion about the cuts to fingers, but if there had not been a razor blade in the pocket, would the opinion be: self-inflicted? If someone is found with a gun shot to the head, can the Medical Examiner conclude who pulled the trigger?

 

[eucalyptuz]

I agree but those examples you listed made me wonder if one of those or something similar could be the "sensitive" item LE alluded to earlier on . I assumed it was the bag but there may be knowledge that they legally cannot release (medical history) or unethical to mention if it involves personal matters . i don't get that impression based on statements by those who are close to the case.

Yes, I think the police must know something that has steered their moves all along. I think that this piece of knowledge could be part of the "sensitive" information alluded to in earlier reports. Something that made the police think she was a "runaway" and missing under own steam (Possible suicide) in that first week before her body was discovered. Public and media scrutiny was cast at the husband and a polygraph was performed and he was cleared so why was the next usual suspect 'suicide'?
Why? Why would police reassure the public they are safe when a responsible, well-employed, habit-bound, stable woman who from all reports was HAPPY, simply disappears. They must know something. This information must be very significant as it's governed their actions. I think a blanket statement from them saying they have information as to Cheryl's state of mind that supports suicide, and that they won't be releasing the details out of respect, would allow us to be more accepting.

 

[dizzychick]

Suicide is most easily achieved at home. Why would someone drive 2 miles, then walk another 1.5 miles, to commit suicide in a dark, cold, hip-deep creek culvert?

DeBoer died of asphyxia and freshwater drowning (link). She was found with a plastic bag covering her face/head. Someone else could have caused unconsciousness before she was put into the creek, and there may be no evidence of a struggle.

There is no logical explanation at this time for murder or suicide.

The Medical Examiner is offering an opinion about the cuts to fingers, but if there had not been a razor blade in the pocket, would the opinion be: self-inflicted? If someone is found with a gun shot to the head, can the Medical Examiner conclude who pulled the trigger?

I hope they did a good autopsy. Iknow they are saying there was water in her lungs but I recall a show on TV sorry cant remember which one it was. The guy traveled for a living. He checked in to a hotel and died in his bed. They went round and round trying to figure his cause of death and I cant remember now what the final decision was, maybe natural causes. Later someone maybe the family was not satisfied and hired this good looking tall grey haired dude, sorry cant remember his name either lol anyway he found out the room next door had 5 or 6 guys in it that had a gun with them that night. Sure enough there was a small pin hole in the wall that led right to the guys bed and under his arm, the coroner missed the accidental bullet hole on autopsy. So it happens, they are only human. Just saying I hope no mistakes were made...

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

Suicide is most easily achieved at home.

As several people have pointed out already, while that might be the theory, it is not the reality.

 

[otto]

<snipped for emphasis>

1. No (reported) evidence that she struggled to remove the bag over her head - e.g. scratch marks on her neck, bruising - and apparently a clean tox screen so she wasn't unconscious when the bag was put over her head

2. No indication from her clothing that she was assaulted or in a struggle for her life

3. Someone mentioned that she wouldn't have "crawled through brambles" to the location. That seems more likely to me than someone managing to force or drag her through that sort of terrain without leaving obvious signs (again, these may not be reported).

I completely understand that there are things that don't seem to make sense, and that the family feel it was homicide. And I applaud LE for continuing to work the case. I hope they can find something that gives an answer one way or another.

But speaking personally, as someone who has tried to take their own life, I would rather believe that Cheryl made her own choice and was at peace with it than died in terror at anothers hands.

Cheryl had cuts to one finger on each hand. Was that evidence of a struggle, or self-inflicted? Although medical examiners are trained to examine cuts for the purpose of identifying a weapon blade, I need more information before I will believe that a medical examiner can look at a cut, and with no additional information, determine that it was self-inflicted. I simply don't believe that is part of anyone's skillset.

Clearly, deeming the cuts "self-inflicted" supports the police theory of suicide.

Given that some of Cheryl's belonging were found upstream from the culvert, if it was suicide it's more likely that she walked along the creek next to the cemetery until she got to the culvert, and discarded some possessions as she approached the culvert.

Suicide is supported by the fact that we've had difficulties understanding how someone could put a body, unseen, at that location. Alternatively, Morgan Harrington was found in a field where it was equally difficult to understand how she got there until there was an arrest and conviction of a former football player who had a reputation for hitting women in the head, picking them up, and carrying them to secluded areas.

 

[TTF14]

Was Cheryl ambidextrous?

 

[Stripehaven]

Two thoughts, if this was suicide: perhaps no one saw Cheryl walking on Cedar Way (where she would have been conspicuous, at least for the final stretch) or enter the culvert - she may have done so at night. We don't really know where she was until Feb 14.

(After my own trip yesterday to check visibility into the west side of the culvert, I am surprised she wasn't spotted sooner if she was there all along, given the clear view and the fact that her disappearance was so well publicized. On the other hand, I can't imagine her hanging out for days in the chilly weather, knowing her family must be so worried.)

Her friend said Cheryl was quite eager to acquire her new cat. As a cat person myself, I realized yesterday that she might have thought the new kitty would be a comfort of sorts to her husband if she herself could no longer manage to stay here. That may sound silly but I can well imagine such an idea.

 

[brandi]

Cheryl had cuts to one finger on each hand. Was that evidence of a struggle, or self-inflicted? Although medical examiners are trained to examine cuts for the purpose of identifying a weapon blade, I need more information before I will believe that a medical examiner can look at a cut, and with no additional information, determine that it was self-inflicted. I simply don't believe that is part of anyone's skillset.

Clearly, deeming the cuts "self-inflicted" supports the police theory of suicide.

Given that some of Cheryl's belonging were found upstream from the culvert, if it was suicide it's more likely that she walked along the creek next to the cemetery until she got to the culvert, and discarded some possessions as she approached the culvert.

Suicide is supported by the fact that we've had difficulties understanding how someone could put a body, unseen, at that location. Alternatively, Morgan Harrington was found in a field where it was equally difficult to understand how she got there until there was an arrest and conviction of a former football player who had a reputation for hitting women in the head, picking them up, and carrying them to secluded areas.

BBM--where did it say they found items belonging to Cheryl. They found "evidence" no one has confirmed exactly what it was (?)